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Post by Mortis on Jun 5, 2008 3:03:39 GMT
The idea was to make a Self-Concealed strength tank that could make Dexterity and Strength checks while still dev critting.
Race Kolyarut: Free Feats, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Stats base [race] (40) {60} Str 17 [22] (32) {42} Dex 17 [22] (30) {30} Con 12 [16] (16) {16} Int 8 [10] Wis 8 [6] Cha 8 [6]
Progression 31F, 9 Mo
F1 Strong Soul, Luck of Hero’s, Exotic Weapon Proficiency F2 Two-handed weapon fighting F3 Iron Will F4 (Str 23) Ambidexterity F5 F6 Focus Two-handed weapon, Power Attack F7 F8 (Str 24) Cleave F9 Great Cleave F10 Improved Two-Handed Weapon Fighting F11 F12 (Str 25) Blind Fighting, Lightning Reflexes F13 F14 Weapon Specialization F15 Great Fortitude F16 (Dex 23) Knockdown F17 F18 Toughness, Called Shot F19 F20 (Dex 24) Improved Critical Two-handed Weapon F21 Epic Will F22 Overwhelming Critical F23 F24 (Dex 25) Epic Weapon Focus, Devastating Critical F25 F26 Epic Prowess (Dex 26) F27 Great Dex 1 (Dex 27) F28 (Dex 28) Epic Prowwess (Dex 29) F29 F30 Great Dex 2 (30) Epic Prowess (Str 26) F31 M32 (Hide & Tumble to 30) M33 (Str 27) Epic Prowess (Str 28) M36 (Str 29) Epic Prowess (Str 30) M39 Great Str 1 (Str 31) M40 (Str 32) ----------------------LEGENDARY LEVELS--------------------------- 42 (Str 33) Legendary Luck 44 (Str 34) 45 Legendary Weapon Focus 46 (Str 35) 48 (Str 36) Self Conceal 1 50 (Str 37) 51 Self Conceal 2 52 (Str 38) 54 (Str 39) Self Conceal 3 56 (Str 40) 57 Self Conceal 4 58 (Str 41) 60 (Str 42) Self Conceal 5
Saves F29+35=64 R29+35=64 W22+35=57
PRO's High AC for two-handed weapon use 50% Hard conceal Hard hits Ability to make Hells Str and Dex checks Good Saves
CON's Tell me what you think!!
Rip it up!, ~Mort
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Post by MightyKhan on Jun 5, 2008 10:25:48 GMT
being human, i can see you picking a total of 3 skills per level with this setup. if, at character creation, you drop strength and dex by 1 each and take 1 more dex increase instead of strength, you will have another 6 points to play with. put 4 of them into int and 2 into con, and you will have a total of 329 skillpoints. this means you can max disc, parry, craft armor and craft weapon or concentration, have 30 hide and 40 tumble with 7 spare points (appraise? open lock?) instead of maxed disc, 30 hide, 40 tumble and 50ish parry.. this will lower your damage by 1, but net you 1 AB with bardsong if you take craft weapon. you can drop your ab by 2 for another 4 points of AC (which you will definitely need) if you drop called shot (dont think your AB is high enough for that) for blooded and LWF for LSA tumble. your ab will be 92ish this way. then, if you take 2 prowesses less, pre-legendary and start with monk levels at 27/30, take conceal I at 36/39, you can get lwf back. +1 ab, -1 damage summary: -2 damage per hit, same ab, +5/6 ac, higher pseudoconceal, +60 hp, +1 fort a little less offense for a lot more defense just some thoughts.. i hope they are constructive
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Post by simpetar on Jun 5, 2008 11:04:08 GMT
What weapons are you going to use? I see you can focus on both two-handers and dual-wield, what route do you want to follow? Maybe dual Sais to make your parry conceal even more effective? I would probably drop Called Shot and take Improved Parry, 5 rounds of invincibility is nice to have IMHO. And maybe drop Knockdown, you will get Improved Knockdown for free at monk lvl 6. Nice build otherwise I once built a similar one, pure dexer and went with 30 lvls of fighter (enough for Epic Dodge) 9 lvls of monk (Improved Evasion, Self Conceal, AC bonus) and 1 bard (UMD). cheers simpetar
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Post by MightyKhan on Jun 5, 2008 11:15:55 GMT
aye, i didnt see the KD feat there, good point i'd swap KD for imp parry too
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Post by Mortis on Jun 5, 2008 11:16:28 GMT
I'm really liking the idea of dropping my final Str by 2 (1 modifier) to increase Int and Con. Deffinately a single-minded thought process on my end once I get an idea going.
Rational for the feats I've chosen. I need 21 Warrior levels as fast as possible to get prowess conversion attribute points so I just took a whole bunch of fighter. Problem is that I get a ton of feats pre-legendary. I will most deffinately look into Improved parry vs called shot but as far as knockdown it was that or some other (probably worse) fighter feat. I will probably take improved parry and then called shot vs Knockdown.
Weapon choice I left generic so that the builder could take a weapon they want vs one I reccomended. Any 2-handed weapon will work. Or even dual wielded weapon...
I need to spend some time tonight revising this build in the chamber and I will modify and re-post.
Thank you all for your feedback, ~Mort
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Post by MightyKhan on Jun 5, 2008 14:44:29 GMT
another thing: while you loose nothing (not a lot anyway) going 30 fighter instead of 31, take an extra monk level and walk around in robes. though it means less physical resistance, you get more AC, AND monk movementspeed bonus: -4 from wearing robes, but +2 from 10 monk levels and +4 from 18 wisdom. instead of the str&dex swap for int and con, increase wisdom isntead of con, for an additional point of AC and +1 will save.
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Post by the1kobra on Jun 5, 2008 15:02:43 GMT
Errr, this character wears robes, and dual wields with a wisdom of 6 and a dex of 30? AC= 10(Base)+2(armor skin)+16(Modified dex)+4(modified wisdom)+12(tumble)+1(9 monk levels)=45+gear UR= 45+14(robe)+16(deflection)+20(dodge)+16(natural)=111 BUR=45+15(robe)+17(deflection)+20(dodge)+17(natural)=114 I hate to say it but I don't think that makes an effective tank, I think a strength ranger has this build beat in just about every way, more conceal, crit immune, much higher ac, more damage (dual wields with FE bonuses and bonus pos damage), at the cost of epic dodge. The will save is also a bit lacking, if you plan on making a monk splash dual wielder, you should probably start with a base wisdom of 14 before sub modifiers.
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Post by chirikov on Jun 5, 2008 16:17:36 GMT
current build progression has some 'wasted' feats, since monk 1 gives cleave and monk 6 gives kd free. if you move 4 monk levels to preepic, you only lose 1 ab but free up those feats (and get those bonus feats in epic levels) plus boost your saves a bit (i think it would push will past 60 in your case)
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Post by Mortis on Jun 7, 2008 13:14:27 GMT
Cleaned up the skill point issue (Thanks to Mighty Khan). This build is built around a universal tank theory. I realize that many sacrifices are made to work two-handed fighting into the build but if you were to choose the dual wielding route then a shield could be used in bad spots.
Some notes from v1 feedback:
**This is not a ranger build or even remotely comparable to a ranger build. This is a universal tank. Rangers can get a much higher AC and have a higher self conceal, however they are dispel-able and are incapable of tanking Str AND Dex based foes in hell effectively.
**My final AC calculated to approximately 121 wearing a few BuR’s.
Version 2.0 Pro's: 50% HARD Conceal Manageable Saves Hard Hits 50% Critical Immunity (Parry) Can tank Str and Dex based foes
Race Kolyarut: Free Feats, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Stats base [race] (40) {60} Str 15 [20] (29) Dex 16 [21] (30) Con 14 [18] Int 14 [14] Wis 8 [6] Cha 8 [6]
Progression 31F, 9 Mo
F1 Strong Soul, Luck of Hero’s, Exotic Weapon Proficiency F2 Two-handed weapon fighting F3 Iron Will F4 (Str 21) Ambidexterity F5 F6 Focus Two-handed weapon, Power Attack F7 F8 (Str 22) Cleave F9 Great Cleave F10 Improved Two-Handed Weapon Fighting F11 F12 (Str 23) Blind Fighting, Lightning Reflexes F13 F14 Weapon Specialization F15 Great Fortitude F16 (Str 24) Improved Parry F17 F18 Toughness, Called Shot F19 F20 (Str 25) Improved Critical Two-handed Weapon F21 Epic Will F22 Overwhelming Critical F23 F24 (Dex 22) Epic Weapon Focus, Devastating Critical F25 F26 Epic Prowess (Dex 23) F27 Great Dex 1 (Dex 24) F28 (Dex 25) Epic Prowwess (Dex 26) F29 F30 Great Dex 2 (Dex 27) Epic Prowess (Dex 28) F31 M32 (Dex 29) (Hide & Tumble to 30) M33 Epic Prowess (Dex 30) M36 (Str 26) Great Str 1 (Str 27) M39 Great Str 2 (Str 28) M40 (Str 29) -------------------LEGENDARY LEVELS-------------------- 42 (Str 30) Great Str 3(Str 31) 44 (Str 32) 45 Legendary Weapon Focus 46 (Str 33) 48 (Str 34) Self Conceal 1 50 (Str 35) 51 Self Conceal 2 52 (Str 36) 54 (Str 37) Self Conceal 3 56 (Str 38) 57 Self Conceal 4 58 (Str 39) 60 (Str 40) Self Conceal 5
Naked AC @ 40 = 28 HP @ 40 = 582
Saves F30+31=61 R27+31=58 W22+31=53
Calculated AC: Base (Naked @ 40) 28 + Natural 17 + dodge 17 + Tumble 6 + Dex 16 + Light armor 21 + Deflection 16 = 121
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Post by MightyKhan on Jun 7, 2008 15:14:17 GMT
the problem is, you can fight pfs and males without getting KD, but you can't tank them with that AC. perhaps its a good idea to list your skillpoint allocations as well (and finish the statpoint part), as I gather from the AC you calculated you only put 30 points in tumble??
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Post by the1kobra on Jun 7, 2008 18:59:33 GMT
**This is not a ranger build or even remotely comparable to a ranger build. This is a universal tank. Rangers can get a much higher AC and have a higher self conceal, however they are dispel-able and are incapable of tanking Str AND Dex based foes in hell effectively. Actually, they are in many respects. Both are intent on dual wielding, and rangers are actually capable of obtaining hybrid tanking abilities, especially with Zenthryi, Wemic, or Kolyarut, and still keep both their stability and offense. I'm not sure how this character would be better, the breach resistance is manageable, not to mention all the other spells they get to compensate, missing epic dodge is not earth shattering, especially for the gain in AC, and unless you use a double-weapon with this build, your offense is also going to be lacking in comparison(which is a huge problem for hybrid tanks). Otherwise, (since you're in armor), you're both going to get 7 attacks, and a ranger would get more damage from bladethirst and FE bonuses. So yes, in many respects, they are comparable, but a tank with just 121 AC and without a significant amount of damage reduction(like a DD) isn't going to get very far. Unless your calculations have an error there, I think that a will of 53 is a pretty bad weakness to have, and your reflex is a bit dangerous too, penalties factored in. The STR and DEX checks won't matter as much if you find yourself failing most reflex and will saves the game has to offer.
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Post by Mortis on Jun 7, 2008 23:50:06 GMT
Skills: Maxed at lvl 40 as able. Discipline Tumble (42) Parry Craft Armor Craft Weapon ---------------------------------------------------------- Hide to 30
P.S. I have no tanks personally in hells as of today. I have all casters and a shifter. I'm not so good at tanks so I prefer building them and taking feedback. Keep it comming.
------------------------------------------------------------- My druid can sit casually in hells at 142 AC with a 66% self conceal and he takes a beating. I must say that AC is important in hells but... In hell it dosen't matter much as I always get hit when aggro'ed.
~Mort
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Post by ladyq on Jun 8, 2008 0:14:17 GMT
All of that hybrid AC you intend to get with dex will get flush down the drain when you are flat. A 2 handed weaponer with koryolt will get demolished without extremely high concealment (like staffmaster) or a moderate amount of charisma for divine shield (shield AC).
Why not splash 7 WM (will cost hardly anything since you have the best suited race for it) and use a good bludgening 1 handed weapon like light flail for a good crit range. I think your survivability will increase 10-fold on this with a shield, but your dmg will suffer. I suppose its a matter of opinion on which route you intend to make.
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Post by crimsonbinome22 on Jun 8, 2008 0:14:25 GMT
My druid can sit casually in hells at 142 AC with a 66% self conceal and he takes a beating. I must say that AC is important in hells but... In hell it dosen't matter much as I always get hit when aggro'ed. Sitting casually most likely gets you flatfooted and you lose most of that AC Considering you've taken Strong Soul and Luck Of Heroes, would it be an idea to take their legendary counterparts? It looks like your saves will need the help. Otherwise I think you should drop one and pick up the LSA Tumble prereq. If you want to be able to tank PFs and Males you'll need the AC to avoid their hits. Also, have you calculated AB? If so what does it reach?
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Post by Mortis on Jun 8, 2008 13:38:43 GMT
A few noticable issues with this build. 1st, AC seems to be a killer. 2nd, A shield added to concept pretty much changes the entire idea.
AB Calc: No. I am unable to actually trade in prowess in the chamber so giving an accurate calculation is undoable. I honestly don't have enough base knowledge on ab calculation to give one without the character sheet being correct.
Going to repost a completely changed version.
Thank you all for your feedback, ~Mort
Closing this thread.
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