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Post by Enius the White on Jan 9, 2012 20:39:02 GMT
With the US ramping up for another election season, the smell of democracy is in the air. So, I thought I'd start a poll on an issue that probably interests most of us here.
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Post by Torin on Jan 9, 2012 20:44:30 GMT
Reminds me of: "Oh, gee, a poll, what a great way to convince me. Not. Funky"
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Post by Michael Buble on Jan 9, 2012 22:09:03 GMT
curious, what are the actual problems?
I mean this as an open and free form discussion. Obviously griping and groaning won't make for constructive conversation.
1) Is the bigger problem that people aren't getting the specific book they need.
2) Every hell or abyss run should drop at least one race book?
3) Perhaps the deeper runs (and maybe they do already) should / could have a drop rate % so 1st 3 hell runs yields 5% BUR while the next 3 levels increase it to say 10% and the Nessus is XX%. Then a similar pattern for Abyss?
4) Perhaps set the drop as a metric of party size? (again maybe it does) in an effort to have players try to do runs with a full compliment.
5) Is there a factor of the book trade in to upgrade a reinc? So you "finally" got that Koly book but the perfect toon to upgrade you don't have a 2nd Koly book for. Perhaps allowing a different BUR book to be traded in would suffice?
6) Would a book trade in help? ie: Trading say 3 UR's for one next level up at a hard to get to area as a quest (ie: the Sphinx with the blood) and have a selection of specific books allowed to be traded for. Ultra cool if the interaction conversation list included books already traded into the quest taker!!
7) Let me add that a compliment to the staff and helpers on the recent Grinch event that offered some books to the participants including a Koly book. Taking advantage of these events is a great way to experience many areas of the server you may not frequent and meet new players and monsters.
Other thoughts? Again, make this constructive and insightful. Griping just give me more books isn't going to help, but solutions, and exploring options can.
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Post by uncanny on Jan 9, 2012 22:54:59 GMT
I would say all of the above 1) This is a natural issue that occurs when the drop rate gets .. well .. dropped . I certainly don't subscribe to the notion that only a BUR will do under all circumstances, but in some cases it can be the difference between a build that works and a build that doesn't. 2+3+4) Not necessarily. I'd be happy with a metric based on what the area is, eg Avernus gets a 1 in 5 chance, but Nessus you will get 2 books. Remember too that you have a 1 in 10 chance of even getting the book in the first place, based on party roll and other items you might need 5) This is a big one I think; though not the only one. And yes, it really blows huge whales when you finally get "that" race only to find that, hell, now you need to spend the next few months redoing your toon. Again. 6) Maybe, though I would say an item of equal value would be the better option. Say, an unrandomized BUR/UR depending on upgrade (to prevent dumping "junk" items on upgrades). 7) Seconded Personally, having a BUR race should indeed mean something. I see no problem making them valuable. Making them priceless seems to be one step too far. Perhaps, something that can be considered is a locked chest in the areas that have race possibilities. The chest will have 10% chance of having a BUR race per party member, otherwise it's a random item. So, 10 party members, there will be a bur race. If you're doing a solo mission or dual boxing, you're hardly likely to get one.
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Post by Yojimbo on Jan 9, 2012 23:35:59 GMT
The drop rate prior to the last change was too high but the changes to the drop rate were not just direct but indirect with the addition of new loot to the table. This makes the odds of getting a BUR race book, regardless of which one it is, much lower. I personally believe the drop rate as it is is too low now just how much it needs to be raised is another question and how easily can it be raised with out impacting the other item drop rates too much. Currently it would seem you can easily run the entire Hell from Tia to Nessus and not see a single BUR book. That seems to be low to me now I have no figures to calculate drop rates and odds myself but that is what we will likely need in order to convince the dev team to make a change. I though am not sure the rates are as bad as some people may make them out to be.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2012 23:40:15 GMT
What I think is interesting about this issue is that randomization makes drop rates of other BUR items a non-issue. If you don't get the bur you want or are really looking for, you will probably be able to find or trade for a nearly equivalent well-randomized UR of the same type. Not so with race books.
There really is no equivalent to the best BUR subs. Anything of true equal value could be used in trade with another player. Even in that case, that item better be something that player really needs or the trade is a no-go.
I would like to see a way to trade in already-read races. 3 bur races that have already been read for one bur race of the players choice. The player would simply be able to use the new race, there would be no book or item or anything that could be traded. That would help to clean out the glut of already-read races and un-read books. Yes there is a glut believe it or not.
Would also be nice to see some kind of race-book augmenters that could upgrade UR books to their BUR counterparts.
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Post by buddhamind on Jan 9, 2012 23:51:32 GMT
I think it is time for the rate to be increased. The cash value of even the mediocre BUR books has gone up significantly since the rate was lowered. I think I saw a Hound Archon on auction for over 2 billion GP the other day, which is quite high for that sub. I see currently a Half-Fiend for over 1 billion, which is approximately the same price I paid for Half-Celestial before the rate drop. I bet HC could fetch well over 2 billion today. Perhaps even 3 billion.
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jan 9, 2012 23:52:56 GMT
=P Things like Half-Celestial and Kolyraut are dropping just the same as they ever have. It's feeling like they're rare because we fixed a bug causing the 2nd most recent group (Brownies, Furchins, Wemics, etc) to drop 7x more often.
I voted it's at the right amount because now any single BUR race book is just as rare as the others. Seriously, think back, how often did you see a Half-Celestial, or Kolyarut, or Radiance Genasi?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2012 0:04:29 GMT
=P Things like Half-Celestial and Kolyraut are dropping just the same as they ever have. It's feeling like they're rare because we fixed a bug causing the 2nd most recent group (Brownies, Furchins, Wemics, etc) to drop 7x more often. I voted it's at the right amount because now any single BUR race book is just as rare as the others. Seriously, think back, how often did you see a Half-Celestial, or Kolyarut, or Radiance Genasi? Those are the big three, and the feeling is very real. On one level, getting a lower tier BUR sub is like getting the minor jackpot on a slotmachine, and the higher tier sub like hitting the major jackpot. The feeling being that at least you hit the jackpot. And even then, people would trade 1 top tier for 2 or 3 lower tier. That in its self put more top tier books in circulation. Now, people are hording them, and those with Koly, hg, or rg books are pretty much sitting on anything they could possibly want.
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Post by buddhamind on Jan 10, 2012 0:26:09 GMT
Now, people are hording them, and those with Koly, hg, or rg books are pretty much sitting on anything they could possibly want. Meh. I just burned a Koly for a reinc, when I could have burned something else and waited 90 days. I'll probably put most of my others (only 4-5 BUR left, now) on auction soon.
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Post by millivanilli on Jan 10, 2012 12:17:32 GMT
=P Things like Half-Celestial and Kolyraut are dropping just the same as they ever have. It's feeling like they're rare because we fixed a bug causing the 2nd most recent group (Brownies, Furchins, Wemics, etc) to drop 7x more often. I voted it's at the right amount because now any single BUR race book is just as rare as the others. Seriously, think back, how often did you see a Half-Celestial, or Kolyarut, or Radiance Genasi? I'm not sure that I agree with you on this Werehound. Prior to Hades and randomization you would at least be guaranteed of seeing a BUR book on a nessus run - when last did you see one drop on Nessus, or Cania, or even in a Prince fight? let alone anywhere else. Outside of the special event (grinches), I don't think I've seen a BUR racebook in months. And yes, I gather that since there was a bug that was causing too many to drop, and since the loot drop rate was increased along with randomization, the possiblity of a BUR race dropping is probably lower than before, I feel that it has become disproportionately low (and sorry, no exact numbers for this, only a gut feeling!)
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jan 10, 2012 15:26:24 GMT
I'm not sure that I agree with you on this Werehound. Prior to Hades and randomization you would at least be guaranteed of seeing a BUR book on a nessus run - when last did you see one drop on Nessus, or Cania, or even in a Prince fight? let alone anywhere else. Outside of the special event (grinches), I don't think I've seen a BUR racebook in months. And yes, I gather that since there was a bug that was causing too many to drop, and since the loot drop rate was increased along with randomization, the possiblity of a BUR race dropping is probably lower than before, I feel that it has become disproportionately low (and sorry, no exact numbers for this, only a gut feeling!) =P Again, were they the high tiers or the bugged lower ones? And each of the last Nessus runs I did a BUR subby *did* drop. =P
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Post by KnightErrant on Jan 10, 2012 16:00:40 GMT
I think it is time for the rate to be increased. The cash value of even the mediocre BUR books has gone up significantly since the rate was lowered. I think I saw a Hound Archon on auction for over 2 billion GP the other day, which is quite high for that sub. I see currently a Half-Fiend for over 1 billion, which is approximately the same price I paid for Half-Celestial before the rate drop. I bet HC could fetch well over 2 billion today. Perhaps even 3 billion. Back about the time that Superior and Elite Paragons were added I sold a HC in the chest for 3.5 Billion and a Koly for 4 Billion....of course there was no forge so the only thing to spend money on was the Demi Store or the Wyrm Chests. I think one of the main problems seen with loot these days is the lack of using Treasure Scent --up to +3%-- and people not making sure that no more than three loots are popped without a mob being killed to avoid the exploit script....also see a lot more broken loots these days than I recall seeing before. KE.
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Post by wolf on Jan 10, 2012 16:40:17 GMT
On the fact of BUR books dropping did Full Ness on Saturday night and we got Koly and last night we did a 6 man Half Ness and Erinyes dropped and same as Were said last few Ness runs i have been BUR books have dropped. Also the thing people have to think about is that people degraded thier BUR value by offering things like Koly for SOSs, Bios, Hellstones all readily available in thids or for Bios and SOSs if Demi they are available in Demi store in Stygia. I feel the Drop rate now is just about right as it has put Beyond Ultra Rare tag back on those books the main word there being Beyond.
Blass
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Post by chirality on Jan 10, 2012 17:59:15 GMT
I think the trade value rarity vs. drop rarity is an interesting point that I tried to address a little in another post in the other thread.
I don't believe that trade value should be used as an argument one way or the other. Devalued BURs due to trade shouldn't have anything to do with commenting on the drop rate.
If people are saying that the drops now are as they used to be, and furthermore "as they should be" then I don't have too much of a problem with it. Leave it the way it is I guess; obviously it's not too huge of a deal since I doubt there is a single forumgoer here who doesn't have at least one BUR, and I doubt there is anyone who can say they don't have at least one BUR race they like and can use, or at least if not then that it's totally impossible to get one.
As has been said more than once on this topic, if anything it seems to me like currently BUR subs are "once again" really, actually BUR. Makes sense to me. Sucks for several different "categories" of player (such as the one I'd put myself in) but then I would find it hard to believe if there was absolutely no choices a player could make differently to ensure they get the BUR they want. If the game isn't giving it to you as easily or as quickly as you once expected or even felt entitled to, then do things differently to get it, or deal with it.
I definitely don't support any sideline "solutions" to this problem such as allowing UR books to be traded in for BURs. No way. UR books drop with comical frequency, for one thing (not even to adress what I see as other inherent problems in sucha system). I don't like any sort of hierarching trade system for any item rarity. What's next? Where will that lead next time there is a popular economical gripe popping up in the future, about something else this time?
Leave it like it is.
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