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Post by chrystoph on Jan 9, 2009 16:45:53 GMT
Sure you would still miss the bard epics but there has to be a away to live without those darn Musicians that never are there when needed Come on, man!!! It was a comparison of adventuring vs the bar maid on my lap!!!
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Post by chrystoph on Jan 9, 2009 17:28:52 GMT
On a more serious note, I would like to point out that I am still learning the LL areas and have yet to be to the Hells. A bard is one of my two Immos and certainly in demand.
I am enjoying the character because I am still learning.
I think it is possible to be bored with any toon, but, really, this particular statement is true in any section of the server. I have been to sections of the server, the Lolth run comes to mind, where I have NEVER been off the beaten path because the leaders of the run know EXACTLY what needs to be accomplished and are not interested in dallying outside those parameters.
Also, I agree with the idea of a modification of the TS. I like the idea of the Rogue having it as an LL Feat based on Appraise + Lore, plus possible Feat Enhancements. After all, is loot finding not one of the primary concepts behind the class?
It would, I think, also put a more legitimate use of Appraise into the system, balancing itself by weighing against the number of skills needed to be effective in the role.
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Post by simpetar on Jan 11, 2009 14:01:17 GMT
It would, I think, also put a more legitimate use of Appraise into the system, balancing itself by weighing against the number of skills needed to be effective in the role. I agree Appraise is not the top skill, but it has its uses. There are times when money does matter, whether the shop in Stygia or e.g. extensive setting traps with trap makers. You will notice when price of an item that costs few billions is halved. cheers simpetar
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Post by Avissar on Jan 11, 2009 21:44:57 GMT
Well, I've started a Bard of my own, and I even have it up to level 44 (45?) so far; however, I have a few questions for everyone.
I hate banking, I mean HATE it. I have a few reassons for this which I will attempt to explain now. First, banking issues are the only time I generally see "drama" on this server, Say we're going through thids, and the banks misses a few things because they didn't know they were there. I've seen parties get pretty darn upset at that. Second, as this entire thread points out, bards, if properly played, have a ton of duties already.
My question is simple: would a party understand that a bard does not have to bank?
If I didn't take treasure scent, there is NO reason why I should be the bank. There are a lot of other third level spells that are useful for a party besides Treasure Scent. Also, while the squishy caster type bard is resting, the strength tank which never ever rests can run around and loot.
Would hell parties understand that? I'm pretty sure that if a Hell run had been waiting on a bard for an hour or more, they'd rather have a non-banking bard than no bard at all. After all, what is it the party REALLY wants: Song and Curse/Part Time Healer/Party Buffer or not to have to grab loot themselves?
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Post by StrykerOfChaos on Jan 11, 2009 22:03:53 GMT
I've also got a bard around that level, and I also don't bank...ever...unless everyone is as stubborn as me. I also didn't take Treasure Scent though I do have almost max lore (it will be max at 60)
I've also been in plenty of parties where the bard did not bank.
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Post by jonuhey on Jan 11, 2009 23:52:39 GMT
My bard oficially stopped banking runs. You get a lot less stress without it, and so do your job better, I still have a lot to learn but Im trying. Things like double clicking in the epic rune which turns it on and off instantly, and you need to wait a full round to click on it again, I do that at least once per run, and often on randoms when it really matters.
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Post by chirikov on Jan 12, 2009 0:23:04 GMT
i find that ultimatums generally work as bard - either they give you the time to bank things properly, or they get no curse song while youre off banking. things generally slow down to a much more manageable pace after that. you can also ask that people point out any loot spots that you missed if youre unfamiliar with the loot on that run (generally make it sound like youre banking as a favor, not as a duty)
to prevent doubleclicking the area epics on my bard i always use the hotkeys instead, and it lets me instantly turn all of them off at same time. havent had any troubles with that method so far
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Post by darin on Jan 12, 2009 5:29:29 GMT
Bards.. Why need bards? We just need more quasi classes to offset the pure classes:) Its not fun to make pure classes anymore..we want more flexibility in toons to do more of what other classes can do! Water down the abilities so that all classes meld into a couple of classes/races and we can do without the pures for our runs!
Or maybe just offer incentives for bards to join your party, if your having a hard time getting one,...say...get a plus 10 on the loot roll..or optional second pick..or guaranteed 5th pick based on roll. You might find a bard looking for a tag, but if loot isnt your parties priority, it might be beneficial to offer that incentive. A lot of work does go into barding, but if offered the right carrot, it may go easier to acquire one than to just hope for the selfless service bard to join.
As for banking and Treasure Scent, I believe it is a personal preference overall than the required attribute to being a bard.
Darin (pick a name)
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Post by eternal on Jan 12, 2009 15:37:47 GMT
I agree Appraise is not the top skill, but it has its uses. There are times when money does matter, whether the shop in Stygia or e.g. extensive setting traps with trap makers. You will notice when price of an item that costs few billions is halved. cheers simpetar Now if that would work in the player market in the player market I'm now making a bard (Thank you very much Stonwarrior) and am having a blast leveling it. Even though I'm pre-epic and can hardly do much direct damage to mosters I never feel like I'm not helping the party out, between the buffs, song, Curse song and the occasional dibilitating spells After reading all of this I personally am not taking Treasure Scent or even lore (unless I'm missing another reason to take lore?) Maybe I will later on if I reincarnate and it seems that I need them but for now I want to learn the class instead of looting and trying to catch back up with the party ( and I just know that I would be the one to pick up two arti's or something)
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Post by chirikov on Jan 12, 2009 16:52:25 GMT
lore is useful for identifying gems and such, though you dont need it if you have appraise. bards get a bonus to their lore skill equal to their class level however, so you dont have to sink a lot of points to be able to make the highest checks
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 18, 2009 6:54:29 GMT
Shard, in the new loot system thread, you asked how the increase in power resulting from the new loot system would be offset, and I set that question aside, for the moment, since I mainly was looking for packages. Part of the answer, however, is simply that increase in character power is as natural as inflation. This, is the other part of the answer. Let the freakout commence. Upcoming Character Edits: Bards==== new progression to 63, changes 62 and adds 63 new point buy system - 10 points per level, 5 focuses, point breakdown: 1-15 1 16-30 2 31-40 3 41-50 4 51-55 5 56-60 6 allow purchase of SSF ench and illu allow lyric channeling at pure 40 bard This, more than any of the other edits, needs explaining. Bard song will be on a point buy system, and curse song will be on a separate point buy system. You will be able to change your point allocations once per 24 hours, in town, for both curse and bard song. A new legendary feat, Legendary Artist, will add one bard song level, just as Artist currently adds two. Legendary artist will also add a second configuration of bard song and curse song that you will be able to hotswap with !opt song and !opt curse. This means that bard song will scale up to level 63, the maximum possible under the current 2 perform per level requirement. Level 62 was edited slightly to push the increase to Fort save from 6 to 7 to level 63: Lvl Perf AB Dam W F R HP AC Skill 61 122 7 8 8 6 6 110 15 20 62 124 7 8 8 6 7 112 15 20 63 126 7 8 8 7 7 114 16 21The point buy system will work as follows. Song will have 5 selectable features: AB, Damage, Saves, AC, Skill. Both temp hit points/damage and the caster bard soak will be entirely level-dependent, as they are now, instead of bought with points. Everything else, will require allocation of points, called 'Song Points'. Bards get 10 points per level to spend on normal song, and another 10 per level to spend on curse song - the allocations are entirely independent, and you cannot spend curse song points on normal song or vice versa. You can buy up levels in song (or curse), for each of the 5 categories, according to the following cost scale: lvl range : points required 1-15 : 1 16-30 : 2 31-40 : 3 41-50 : 4 51-55 : 5 56-60 : 6That means if you want to buy 21 levles in Damage, it will cost you one point for the first 15 levels, and 2 points for each of the 6 levels from 16-21, or 15+6 = 21 Song Points. If you want 51, it will cost 120 points (15 + 30 + 30 + 40 + 5). If you want 60, it will cost 170 points. You can purchase a level of song up to 10 levels beyond your current bard level (including LLs) in one or more of the 5 categories, so long as you have enough points, but you still need the level of perform required for that level of song, or it will have only the effect that your perform ability allows. Examples (these are not optimal distributions in any sense, only intended to demonstrate mechanics): =====#1===== Level 20 Bard, 200 song points, 50 perform
Buys level 30 in AB, costing 1-15*1 = 15 plus 16-30*2 = 30 or 45 Buys level 30 in Damage, costing 1-15*1 = 15 plus 16-30*2 = 30 or 45 Buys level 26 in Saves, costing 1-15*1 = 15 plus 16-26*2 = 22 or 37 Buys level 30 in AC, costing 1-15*1 = 15 plus 16-30*2 = 30 or 45 Buys level 21 in Skill, costing 1-15*1 = 15 plus 16-21*2 = 12 or 27
45+45+37+45+27 = 199, one point unspent because of his perform being sufficient for only level 25 song, checking the HG bard song chart, his effective song will be:
25 Ab = 3 25 Damage = 4 25 Saves = 3/3/3 25 Ac = 5 21 Skill = 6 ============
=====#2===== Level 41 Bard, 410 song points, 95 perform, Artist feat
Buys level 51 in AB, costing 1-15*1 = 15 plus 16-30*2 = 30 plus 31-40*3 = 30 plus 41-50*4 = 40 plus 51*5 = 5 or 120 Buys level 30 in Damage, costing 1-15*1 = 15 plus 16-30*2 = 30 or 45 Buys level 51 in Saves, costing 1-15*1 = 15 plus 16-30*2 = 30 plus 31-40*3 = 30 plus 41-50*4 = 40 plus 51*5 = 5 or 120 Buys level 5 in AC, costing 1-5*1 = 5 or 5 Buys level 51 in Skill, costing 1-15*1 = 15 plus 16-30*2 = 30 plus 31-40*3 = 30 plus 41-50*4 = 40 plus 51*5 = 5 or 120
120+45+120+5+120 = 410, no points unspent because of his perform being sufficient for only level 47 song, and Artist feat adding 2 bonus levels, checking the HG bard song chart, his effective song will be:
47 Ab = 5 32 Damage = 5 47 Saves = 6/5/5 7 Ac = 0 47 Skill = 14 ============
=====#3===== Level 60 Bard, 600 song points, 126 perform, has Artist and Legendary Artist
Buys level 60 in AB, costing 1-15*1 = 15 plus 16-30*2 = 30 plus 31-40*3 = 30 plus 41-50*4 = 40 plus 51-55*5 = 25 plus 56-60*6 = 30 or 170 Buys level 60 in Damage, costing 1-15*1 = 15 plus 16-30*2 = 30 plus 31-40*3 = 30 plus 41-50*4 = 40 plus 51-55*5 = 25 plus 56-60*6 = 30 or 170 Buys level 30 in Saves, costing 1-15*1 = 15 plus 16-30*2 = 30 or 45 Buys level 60 in AC, costing 1-15*1 = 15 plus 16-30*2 = 30 plus 31-40*3 = 30 plus 41-50*4 = 40 plus 51-55*5 = 25 plus 56-60*6 = 30 or 170 Buys level 30 in Skill, costing 1-15*1 = 15 plus 16-30*2 = 30 or 45
170+170+45+170+45=600, no points unspent
because of his perform being sufficient for level 63 song, and hist Artist and Legendary Artist feats adding 2 and 1 levels respectively for 3 total bonus levels, checking the HG bard song chart, his effective song will be:
63 Ab = 7 63 Damage = 8 33 Saves = 4/3/3 63 Ac = 16 33 Skill = 10 ============For those of you keeping track, that means a pure 60 bard who chooses to generalize can get 51 levels in all 5 focus areas, or max 3 areas at 60, one at 43, and the 5th at 3. Or, 60/60/60/30/30 (all of those before the potential 3 levels from feats). It also means that low-level bard song will be MORE powerful, with many extra levels they can buy early on, so long as they can manage the perform required. It also means that havng more than one bard sing, or curse, will no longer necessarily be redundant. And of course, it will reduce somewhat the impact of bardsong vis a vis other classes, which, when combined with other edits, will help to make bards somewhat less essential, which of course was one of the themes of this thread. WCs==== new epic for final DD epic - Chant of the Unyielding - as Aegis, but physical damage types - replaces Transmute Barrier new epic for final bard epic - Chant of the Fallen - True Resurrection x 3 (recalls up to 3 party members from limbo) replaces (broken) UUU song points - 10/bard level, 7.5/DD level change SF Intim requirement to Still Spell new quasi spells - deafening clang, heroism, improved heroism, wounding whispers PDK==== level 1 PDK abilities are rallying cry and heroic shield all of these would apply if you have 5 PDK pre-LL and at level 41 level 1 rallying cry grants bard song AB buff at character level 3/day (non stacking) heroic shield grants bard song AC buff for a few rounds level 2 is inspire courage, 2/day cures all fear/confusion in gargantuan burst plus grants temporary fear immune level 3 is inspire fear, brief duration bard song AB debuff on target also non stacking with song level 4 is oath of wrath, grants crit imm vs the target's race briefly level 5 is final stand, swift action party stand up 3/day HS==== 8 points per level HS towards bard song
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Post by Acaos on Jan 18, 2009 7:24:33 GMT
In addition, Pale Master Lichsong is being extended; they will be able to burn memorized copies of Summon Creature as Curse Song. The Lichsong curse can be thrown a Short distance and will affect all creatures in a Large radius.
Summon Creature IX will act as Curse Song at ((Pale Master level including LLs) - 10), reaching level 40 equivalent at Pale Master 50. For every rank of Summon Creature less than IX, 5 levels will be subtracted, so at Pale Master 50, SC2 would be the equivalent of a level 5 Curse Song.
Acaos
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Post by kaezar on Jan 18, 2009 7:35:09 GMT
What about sorceror BK? He won't have handy summon spells he can memorize.
Take care kaezar
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Post by Acaos on Jan 18, 2009 7:41:27 GMT
If you mean sorcerer PM and not sorcerer BK, there'll be a different alternative for them (probably just burning 1 or 2 slots of a level).
Acaos
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Post by wnxstrikefighter on Jan 18, 2009 7:53:53 GMT
So the plan to off-set player power is to reduce the effectiveness of bard song and curse. It seems like bards will be getting a lot more complicated with this new system, and perhaps a little more intimidating for people to make.
I thought we wanted more bards.
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