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Post by Yojimbo on Sept 9, 2011 18:16:05 GMT
Im making this thread for 2 reasons the first is I intend to reinc my Theurge if I ever get my hands on Drow Noble or if I find another way to improve upon my current theurge. The second is the recent unorthodox Theurge someone posted which does seem reasonably viable although not exactly something I would recommend.
I am working out a few idea for some guidelines of sort for Theurges such as recommended level splits. I figure there are 3 routes for building a Theurge and I list them below and what I believe is the optimum level splits.
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Divine Epics: 29 Cleric/10 Wizard 1 Open Level
-Gets Cleric Epic spells
-Gets 2 Wizard bonus feats and 3 Epic Cleric bonus feats for 5 total bonus feats
-Limited to 5th level Arcane spells or 6th level if you use the open level for 11 Wizard
Arcane Epics: 26 Wizard/13 Cleric 1 Open Level
-Gets Wizard Epic spells
-Gets 4 Wizard bonus feats and 2 Epic Wizard bonus feats for 6 total bonus feats
-Limited to 7th level Divine spells
No Epic Generalist: 23 Wizard/17 Cleric
-Get 9th level spells for both Divine and Arcane
-Gets 4 Wizard bonus feats and 1 Epic Wizard bonus feat for 5 total bonus feats
-Does not have any Epic spells
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Any build can focus in maximizing their INT or WIS but a CC Wizard is generally better off focusing on INT while a CC Cleric is going to be better off with WIS. The generalist build variant is more of an exception to this the CC Wizard is mostly for the extra feat it would get over a reverse of the level split and not to maximize spell selection and slot numbers. This means it is roughly equally beneficial to use WIS as it is INT.
Please give me your thoughts on other viable class splits for it and other general suggestions for this quasiclass.
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Post by maljin on Sept 9, 2011 21:06:26 GMT
There's also the possibility to go 30 wizard, 9 cleric, 1 other. You get more epic bonus feats from wizard at the cost of cleric spells lvl 6 and up (you can still use metamagics for the slots gear would provide). You still get prayer and battletide but no greater restoration.
I guess this would work perfectly for open/secret subbies that would be reincarnated into stargazer/drow noble/genie once you've got the gear to cast lot's of cleric spells and before they encounter hell penalties on a frequent basis. The extra feat(s) (add another if you take a ranger level) compared to the other routes means you'd have more than a sorc and are still reasonably close to a pure wizard.
And there are some 25 wizard, 15 cleric theurges around. Being pure you lack 1 CL from being a lvl 60 caster, so a CL ego item or the SP arty would push you just far enough to get all those benefits pure casters get (especially battletide is worth mentioning I guess). You still get epics that way and lvl 8 cleric spells.
Very similar is 26 wizard, 14 cleric, you trade the level cleric spells vs another epic bonus feat. I guess that's personal preference and certainly depends on domain and spell school choice as well.
Imho there's not much for a cleric cc (wis based) theurge with low level (let's say up to lvl 6) wizard spells, since most wizard spells you'd get are good for buffing yourself and others (tenser's and EV mostly, GV if you have illusion foci). Being a non-quasi cleric you get gate, which is probably all you need to buff yourself, you get more feats and don't need to spend that many points on int.
mal
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Post by desocupado on Sept 9, 2011 21:55:01 GMT
Well, while I'm the unconventional builder you mentioned, let me make some serious thought about theurge builds:
Advantages of using Theurges:
More DC enhancers for arcane users.
More SR debuffs for divine users.
Lots and lots of buffs
No epic spell builds - least favored (but are handy scribers) [/color]
Wiz 20 / Cleric 19 / Monk 1 - A cleric with mord, pwKill and arcane gate that can counterspell. (sounds fun actually)
Wizard 23 / Cleric 17 - The arcane counterpart from above build. Schools are kinda free but I would recommend getting Illusion and Conjuration for enhanced creeping doom and long range rez (synergy).
Regular builds - mainstream
Cleric 26 / Wiz 13 / Monk 1 - Vanilla-like cleric - i.e. ploder with epics - Trades more buffs for no gate or enhanced saves.
Wiz 26 / Cleric 13 / Rogue 1 - A lootmage with GR but much less feats than a regular wizard - you will need ESF Open lock to be able to pick locks.
XXX 25 / YYY 15 - As maljin pointed, is pretty good if you already have an EGO item or a Sigil of Mystra.
When deciding the spell levels of the minor class remember that these spells are useful:
Cleric (War and Plant if level 7 spells, Fire and Healing otherwise):
Level 6: GS, Blade barrier, Harm, Heal and Spell resistance
Level 7: Greater restoration, Creeping doom, Ressurection (it's good for disintegrated party members and temp's hps) and Aura of Vitality
Level 8: Mass heal and (extended greater restoration)
Level 9: True Resurrection, UEF and Mass GS
Wizard:
Level 6: Lesser mindblank, Great spell breach, Legend Lore, Ethereal Visage
Level 7: Spell Mantle, Powerword Stun (well it has no save)
Level 8: Premonition, Mindblank and Greater Spell Breach
Level 9: Powerword Kill, Mord (time stop and bbod can be duplicated via scrolls)
Theurge's feat cost is worse when the CC is wizard, as the pre-epic wizard bonus feat ameliorate the lost epic feats from a regular cleric.
However, Wizard builds find having their own greater restoration, battletide and prayer invaluable for more DC.
As a rule of thumb:
1 - Always get at least Wizard 11 if cleric CC, as ethereal visage 75% is very helpful and the best way to deal with the lack of gate.
2 - Wizard's benefit greatly from GR (i.e. Cleric 13), but having Battle tide and prayer may be enough if you are feat tight.
3 - The level 8 spells aren't very attractive.
4 - Even if you are Int based a monk level means 9-12 AC from wisdom and class access to tumble i.e. more +2-6 ac. That's 18 ac, 4 more points than wearing the Ur-Ward - a BUR shield. that you can use a torch and keep a good AC.
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Post by simpetar on Sept 10, 2011 0:31:48 GMT
@ 9 cleric / 30 wizard / 1 whatever: you can fill that whatever with rogue. That way you can get an extremely capable DC arcane caster (BT cannot be replaced by any other debuff and you get access to your own Prayer) with rogue abilities and very solid defense (EMA with E Dodge, access to Thid bracers, Magic Vestments on Ur-Ward, conceal from EV and soak spells). @ 15 cleric / 25 wizzy: certainly an option, but... You need to ask yourself how many spells there are at cleric level 8 you will actually use. There is Aura vs. Alignment, one of the most powerful spells, because it covers specific immunities to many mind effects (unlike MB). However, as the name says, it protects only against the alignment, so certain abyssal mushrooms will bypass it, as well as many other areas/mobs. And I am not sure that it properly grants these bonuses for quasi classes. The other spell might be AoV from domain, it has its uses. Most other spells of that level can be substituted. The hottest competitor against 15/25 is 14/26 for the extra feat. Take your pick  simpetar |
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Post by simpetar on Sept 10, 2011 0:48:00 GMT
4 - Even if you are Int based a monk level means 9-12 AC from wisdom and class access to tumble i.e. more +2-6 ac. That's 18 ac, 4 more points than wearing the Ur-Ward - a BUR shield. Int. based with monk, no shield: 12 tumble AC + 13 wisdom AC (starting at 18 or 19, with +14 gear at x2 demi) = +25 at its pinnacleInt. based with shield: 6 tumble AC + 3 shield base + 15 shield modifier (Magic Vestment with the very basic Abj. focus found on any staff) = +24 without much effort. Furthermore, Abjuration foci can be expanded, shield can be Girded (to the grand total of +23 AC from shield alone), Tumble can be maxed with elves and 1 class with it. However, AC is for tanks, casters are squishy by default ;D simpetar |
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Post by desocupado on Sept 10, 2011 3:46:33 GMT
4 - Even if you are Int based a monk level means 9-12 AC from wisdom and class access to tumble i.e. more +2-6 ac. That's 18 ac, 4 more points than wearing the Ur-Ward - a BUR shield. Int. based with monk, no shield: 12 tumble AC + 13 wisdom AC (starting at 18 or 19, with +14 gear at x2 demi) = +25 at its pinnacleInt. based with shield: 6 tumble AC + 3 shield base + 15 shield modifier (Magic Vestment with the very basic Abj. focus found on any staff) = +24 without much effort. Furthermore, Abjuration foci can be expanded, shield can be Girded (to the grand total of +23 AC from shield alone), Tumble can be maxed with elves and 1 class with it. However, AC is for tanks, casters are squishy by default ;D simpetar So considering AC, I could say a monk level is worth (for arcane theurges) when you want to use powerful torch like Eye of Deception or Ruby Rod of Asmodeus all the time? Or get a decent Disciple Rank and not worry about slagging (now this is a reasonable point). |
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Post by simpetar on Sept 10, 2011 8:25:22 GMT
Considering AC, I am saying that I would think twice about splashing monk in such build just for the sake of AC, while without monk it does just as well. You need to consider the alternatives (which, by the way, is what all this thread is about ): going pure for SP and easier hitting of CL 60, rogue for the cookies they get, ranger for the extra feat, search and discipline and others. As for AC, as I wrote, I would not worry about that one in the first place, in the case of caster who does not have to stand in the front lines (such as bard or druid). Defense is important in small parties (and LLs as small party sub-category; you do not always get 10 people for, say, Uro or Locathah). But theurges have quite a number of defensive buffs at their disposal to make up for low AC. Besides, if you adopt the approach "how not to be hit or targeted at all" (etherealness, positioning, LoS, BBoD / summon / party distraction,..) before "how to mitigate attacks when they are unloading at me", you are on a right path to success. simpetar |
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Post by Yojimbo on Sept 10, 2011 15:43:38 GMT
One comment I saw I want to comment on is people suggesting a pure Theurge should use the SP arti which Im not going to say that it isn't a good idea but I feel people are mistaking Theurge -1 CL to also mean -1 SP. This is not the case according to at least the wiki which list CL as Cleric Level + Wizard Level -1 and SP and Cleric Level + Wizard Level + 1 giving Theurges a +1 SP over standard Cleric and Wizard builds the cost is usually that you are 1 or 2 DC below a Wizard or Cleric due to feat limitations and stat requirements of the quasi class.
The next comment I have seen made once or twice was that a CC Cleric Theurge would not need other buffs because they would have Gate. Now the problem I see here is that the description of Gate is that for Clerics it only works if you are not a quasiclass and a Theurge is most definitely a quasiclass. I have not tested the spell myself but I suspect that it would function as a Wizard Gate spell would doing the teleport ability. I wouldn't be surprised if this was due to the coding having difficulty determining if it was cast as a cleric or wizard spell for Theurges.
I hadnt even considered the math myself but simpetar shows that a shielded INT focused Theurge has roughly equal AC to the same build w/o a shield and a monk splash. I also do not see most casters being front line casters the exceptions being Bard, Turner, and Druid. I will say a WIS focused Theurge does have more cuase to pick up Monk as the AC boost will be significant but I find it harder to fit a splash on a CC Cleric which as I said is what makes the most sense pumping WIS in to.
The problem with the 25 Wiz/15 Clr split for me is that Wiz gets a bonus feat at 26 and for 15 Clr you only get more spells and most of them are not worth giving up the feat to me.
I am confused by this statment:
How is feat selection worse for CC Wizard? The Wizard get 4 bonus feats pre-epic levels and the Wizard and Cleric get Epic Bonus feats on the same levels being 23, 26, and 29. With 9 levels in each class required you can't get more than 3 epic bonus feats.
I had forgotten about Rangers having Greater Spell Focus feats as a bonus feat to Ranger is an excellent splash to consider.
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Post by simpetar on Sept 10, 2011 16:11:28 GMT
I have not tested the spell myself but I suspect that it would function as a Wizard Gate spell would doing the teleport ability. When a theurge casts Gate from the wizard spell book, it acts as the teleport with all the relevant factors (CL and Conj foci). When Gate is cast from cleric spell book, the laughable Balor is summoned as from vanilla NWN, no matter how many Div foci are present. |
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Post by maljin on Sept 10, 2011 17:10:08 GMT
One comment I saw I want to comment on is people suggesting a pure Theurge should use the SP arti which Im not going to say that it isn't a good idea but I feel people are mistaking Theurge -1 CL to also mean -1 SP. This is not the case according to at least the wiki which list CL as Cleric Level + Wizard Level -1 and SP and Cleric Level + Wizard Level + 1 giving Theurges a +1 SP over standard Cleric and Wizard builds the cost is usually that you are 1 or 2 DC below a Wizard or Cleric due to feat limitations and stat requirements of the quasi class. The next comment I have seen made once or twice was that a CC Cleric Theurge would not need other buffs because they would have Gate. Now the problem I see here is that the description of Gate is that for Clerics it only works if you are not a quasiclass and a Theurge is most definitely a quasiclass. I have not tested the spell myself but I suspect that it would function as a Wizard Gate spell would doing the teleport ability. I wouldn't be surprised if this was due to the coding having difficulty determining if it was cast as a cleric or wizard spell for Theurges. For "pure" theurges (only cleric and wizard levels) the sigil of mystra is usually used for the ability to increase CL by 1 for a couple of rounds once a day. Using the sigil instead of an int or wis arty you trade 1 dc vs 1 sp and the ability to buff yourself with lvl 60 spells once a day. You're 2 sp higher than a pure wizard and 1 dc lower not factoring in ego items or ability spreads. I think kaezar wrote that having 2 more sp and losing 2 dc (his int mod was 1 lower than that of a max dc wizard) would have about the same rate of landing spells successfully (at least in hells). The second statement is not comparing arcane theurges (wiz cc, int based) to divine theurges (cleric cc, wis based) but divine theurges to non-quasi clerics which get gate and all the other cleric spells you'd cast as a divine theurge. I just said you don't really get much as a divine theurge compared to a normal no-quasi caster cleric...all those wizard spells would be buffs mostly, which a non-quasi cleric doesn't need because of gate. So I'd rather roll a caster cleric and get more epic feats and a useful gr ruin dc and gate than a divine theurge with EV conceal. An arcane theurge gets prayer, battletide and gr. restoration while you don't suffer much just regarding wizard buffs...you do lose the ability to cast bioware epics (gr ruin, mage armor, ...) as effectively no-quasi wizards would (even the 30/9/1 spread has a gr ruin which is at dc 55 compared to 65 of a pure caster). Epic dodge and the ability to use some wizard gear is nice though; I haven't considered that before. I had forgotten about Rangers having Greater Spell Focus feats as a bonus feat to Ranger is an excellent splash to consider. You can even get epic spell foci if you take the ranger in epic levels, as well as a skill dump for disc, search and animal empathy since this also increases the damage of creeping doom by some tiny bits. mal |
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Post by desocupado on Sept 11, 2011 0:50:47 GMT
I am confused by this statment: How is feat selection worse for CC Wizard? The Wizard get 4 bonus feats pre-epic levels and the Wizard and Cleric get Epic Bonus feats on the same levels being 23, 26, and 29. With 9 levels in each class required you can't get more than 3 epic bonus feats. I tried to mean this: A pure lvl 40 Wizard has (7+4) [pre-epic] +7+6 [epic] = 24 feats A pure lvl 40 Cleric has 7 [pre-epic] + 7+6 [epic]= 20 feats A 26/14 Cleric/Wiz has 7+2[pre-epic] + 7+2[epic] = 18 feats A 26/13/1 Wiz/Cleric/Rogue has 7+4[pre-epic] + 7+2 [epic] = 20 feats I had forgotten about Rangers having Greater Spell Focus feats as a bonus feat to Ranger is an excellent splash to consider. Me too. It's worth considering, especially if you are hunting more epic spells. |
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HoV
Initiate
Valhalla, where the gods await.
Posts: 38
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Post by HoV on Sept 15, 2011 6:02:35 GMT
Since a ranger can take greater spell focus, can they pick up epic spell focus instead?
valhalla
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Post by maljin on Sept 15, 2011 6:48:23 GMT
Yes, they can in epic levels. But be aware that rangers per se cannot take epic spell foci, since they can't cast level 9 spells, so you need to have some other classes (like wizard and cleric here) that can cast them. Especially on a theurge who has to have a certain level split before a certain level you'll get level 9 spells later than most other casters so taking the ranger level too early could lead to the assumption that you're limited to gr. spell foci due to ranger when it's actually due to the inability to cast level 9 spells yet.
mal
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