Post by cathedralmaster on May 23, 2007 22:40:01 GMT
Since most people seem to not know how to do this, I figured I'd start a thread on how to compute various aspects of a build. Sure, you could use the excel sheet but as someone who builds characters, you really want to know how to do this without that.
The first thing you need to know is how to use this chart:
High Saves:
Barbarian - Fortitude
Bard - Reflex, Will
Cleric - Fortitude, Will
Druid - Fortitude, Will
Fighter - Fortitude
Monk - Fortitude, Reflex, Will
Paladin - Fortitude
Ranger - Fortitude
Rogue - Reflex
Sorceror - Will
Wizard - Will
Arcane Archer - Fortitude, Reflex
Assassin - Reflex
Blackguard - Fortitude
Champion of Torm - Fortitude, Reflex
Dwarven Defender - Fortitude, Will
Harper Scout - Reflex, Will
Pale Master - Fortitude, Will
Red Dragon Disciple - Fortitude, Will
Shifter - Fortitude, Reflex
Shadowdancer - Reflex
Weapon Master - Reflex
First time I saw it, it was confusing as hell but it's really the easiest thing in the world to use. To compute any base, take the classes and the levels of each before 20, look them up in the chart, and add them together - simplest thing ever.
So let's say you have a 16 monk/14 paladin and you want the ab and reflex saves. Take 16 monk - it gets the higher save for reflex, so your looking at +10. Then take 4 levels of paladin - its gets the lower, so your looking at +1. You hence have a base save of +11.
Same goes with ab - take the +12 from the monk, add the +4 from the paladin, and you get an ab of +16 (+16/+11/+6/+1 technically) at level 20.
For the rest, you just need the equations:
Saves:
a (base) + 10 (epic) + 5 (legendary) + b (con modifier for fort, dex modifier for reflex, will modifier for will) + 20 (items) + c (feats) + d (Pally Divine Grace or BG Dark Blessing)
Divine Grace is a first level paladin feat, requires one to be of good alignment, and adds no negative if one's charisma modifier is below 0. Dark Blessing is aquired on blackguard level 2, and requires one to be of evil alignment. It does count a negative modifier.
Attack Bonus:
Base attack bonus + stat modifier + Weapons attack or enhancement bonus + feat modifiers + skill modifier + size modifier
A standard calculation would look like:
+ a (BAB)
+10 (epic levels)
+ b (LL bonus dependant on control class and possibly affected by Tensor's)
+ c (b buffed main stat)
+13 (GMW) or whatever you think you can count on
+ d (WM bonuses)
+ e (enchant arrow)
+ 3 (WF/EWF)
+ f (LL WF dependent on Prowess)
+ 1 (Prowess)
+ g (tensers, divine power, etc - counts towards the +20 of GMW)
+ h (craft weapon provides +1 ab per 40 fully modified ranks)
- 2 (dualing if you took the feats)
+/- i (size modifier)
Armor Class:
AC = 10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + dodge bonus + natural armor bonus + deflection bonus + other bonuses
Calculating AC is a little more tricky since you need to know something about the gear available. Keeping in mind the new armor statistics (chart borrowed from Stormchaser):
You'd probably want to figure out max based on UR equipment which would look something like this:
10 - base
16 - natural (+20 strongheart if 40 str and less than 21 RDD levels)
a - armor without dex mod
16 - deflection
20 - dodge+haste
b - tumble (depends on skill level)
2 - armor skin
c - wisdom (if you have monk, subject to possible class ac bonus restrictions)
d - dex modifier
e - shield modifier (19 for Pentavite, 16 for large shields)
f - skill modifier (craft armor provides +1 to ac per 40 fully modified ranks)
g - class ac bonus
h - size modifier
Hit Points (Bort's Version):
Base HP = a + b + c + d
a = Hit die of class * Class levels, for each class (including legendary levels for control class).
b = Con modifier * 60
c = 60 hit points from Toughness, if you took it.
d = Pale Master bonuses, if applicable:
PMs get +3 HP bonus per Pale Master levels from 5-10 (up to +18).
Epic Pale Masters (level 10+) get +5 HP every 5 levels
(at 15, 20, 25 & 30, not including legendary levels, to a maximum of +20).
E.g. A character with 30 levels of Pale Master (not including LLs) would get +38 hitpoints).
Modified HP = Base HP + ((Added Con Modifier From Equipment) * 40)
Hit Die for Classes:
1d12 = Barbarian, Dwarven Defender
1d10 = Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Blackguard, Champion of Torm, Weapon Master
1d8 = Cleric, Druid, Monk, Arcane Archer, Shifter, Shadowdancer
1d6 = Bard, Rogue, Assassin, Harper Scout, Pale Master
1d4 = Sorceror, Wizard
RDDs get hit die increases as follows:
These are not retroactive, so RDD hit points for a level 10 RDD would be calculated as follows:
3*6 (rdd levels 1-3 *d6): +18
2*8 (rdd levels 4 and 5 *d8): +16
5*10 (rdd levels 6-10 *d10): +50
I'd give guidelines about what you'd want for each of these but they're different with each build so something like Mish's thread really isn't that possible. For instance, you'd want saves of at least 66 and fort saves of over 70 for a melee build if you plan to double demigod it but depending on the build, you can get away with less. There are also tradeoffs, etc. - I'd end up writing an encyclopedia on how to build every kind of character I know.
The first thing you need to know is how to use this chart:
Class Level | Base Saves Lower/Higher | Fighter, Barbarian Paladin, Ranger Arcane Archer, Blackguard, Dwarven Defender, Weapon Master, Champion of Torm Base Attack | Cleric, Druid Rogue, Bard, Monk, Assassin, Shadowdancer, Shifter, Dragon Disciple, Harper Scout Base Attack | Wizard, Sorceror, Pale Master Base Attack |
1 | +0/+2 | +1 | +0 | +0 |
2 | +0/+3 | +2 | +1 | +1 |
3 | +1/+3 | +3 | +2 | +1 |
4 | +1/+4 | +4 | +3 | +2 |
5 | +1/+4 | +5 | +3 | +2 |
6 | +2/+5 | +6/+1 | +4 | +3 |
7 | +2/+5 | +7/+2 | +5 | +3 |
8 | +2/+6 | +8/+3 | +6/+1 | +4 |
9 | +3/+6 | +9/+4 | +6/+1 | +4 |
10 | +3/+7 | +10/+5 | +7/+2 | +5 |
11 | +3/+7 | +11/+6/+1 | +8/+3 | +5 |
12 | +4/+8 | +12/+7/+2 | +9/+4 | +6/+1 |
13 | +4/+8 | +13/+8/+3 | +9/+4 | +6/+1 |
14 | +4/+9 | +14/+9/+4 | +10/+5 | +7/+2 |
15 | +5/+9 | +15/+10/+5 | +11/+6/+1 | +7/+2 |
16 | +5/+10 | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +12/+7/+2 | +8/+3 |
17 | +5/+10 | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +12/+7/+2 | +8/+3 |
18 | +6/+11 | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +13/+8/+3 | +9/+4 |
19 | +6/+11 | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +14/+9/+4 | +9/+4 |
20 | +6/+12 | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +15/+10/+5 | +10/+5 |
High Saves:
Barbarian - Fortitude
Bard - Reflex, Will
Cleric - Fortitude, Will
Druid - Fortitude, Will
Fighter - Fortitude
Monk - Fortitude, Reflex, Will
Paladin - Fortitude
Ranger - Fortitude
Rogue - Reflex
Sorceror - Will
Wizard - Will
Arcane Archer - Fortitude, Reflex
Assassin - Reflex
Blackguard - Fortitude
Champion of Torm - Fortitude, Reflex
Dwarven Defender - Fortitude, Will
Harper Scout - Reflex, Will
Pale Master - Fortitude, Will
Red Dragon Disciple - Fortitude, Will
Shifter - Fortitude, Reflex
Shadowdancer - Reflex
Weapon Master - Reflex
First time I saw it, it was confusing as hell but it's really the easiest thing in the world to use. To compute any base, take the classes and the levels of each before 20, look them up in the chart, and add them together - simplest thing ever.
So let's say you have a 16 monk/14 paladin and you want the ab and reflex saves. Take 16 monk - it gets the higher save for reflex, so your looking at +10. Then take 4 levels of paladin - its gets the lower, so your looking at +1. You hence have a base save of +11.
Same goes with ab - take the +12 from the monk, add the +4 from the paladin, and you get an ab of +16 (+16/+11/+6/+1 technically) at level 20.
For the rest, you just need the equations:
Saves:
a (base) + 10 (epic) + 5 (legendary) + b (con modifier for fort, dex modifier for reflex, will modifier for will) + 20 (items) + c (feats) + d (Pally Divine Grace or BG Dark Blessing)
Divine Grace is a first level paladin feat, requires one to be of good alignment, and adds no negative if one's charisma modifier is below 0. Dark Blessing is aquired on blackguard level 2, and requires one to be of evil alignment. It does count a negative modifier.
Attack Bonus:
Base attack bonus + stat modifier + Weapons attack or enhancement bonus + feat modifiers + skill modifier + size modifier
A standard calculation would look like:
+ a (BAB)
+10 (epic levels)
+ b (LL bonus dependant on control class and possibly affected by Tensor's)
+ c (b buffed main stat)
+13 (GMW) or whatever you think you can count on
+ d (WM bonuses)
+ e (enchant arrow)
+ 3 (WF/EWF)
+ f (LL WF dependent on Prowess)
+ 1 (Prowess)
+ g (tensers, divine power, etc - counts towards the +20 of GMW)
+ h (craft weapon provides +1 ab per 40 fully modified ranks)
- 2 (dualing if you took the feats)
+/- i (size modifier)
Armor Class:
AC = 10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + dodge bonus + natural armor bonus + deflection bonus + other bonuses
Calculating AC is a little more tricky since you need to know something about the gear available. Keeping in mind the new armor statistics (chart borrowed from Stormchaser):
Armor | Type | Base | New Max Dex | Old Max Dex | UR Armor Bonus |
Padded | Light | +1 | +21 | +8 | +16 |
Leather | Light | +2 | +20 | +6 | +16 |
Studded Leather, Hide | Light | +3 | +19 | +4 | +16 |
Chain Shirt, Scale Mail | Medium | +4 | +9 | +4 | +17 |
Chain Mail, Breast Plate | Medium | +5 | +8 | +2 | +17 |
Splint Mail, Banded Mail | Heavy | +6 | +3 | +1 | +18 |
Half-Plate | Heavy | +7 | +2 | +1 | +18 |
Full-Plate | Heavy | +8 | +1 | +1 | +18 |
You'd probably want to figure out max based on UR equipment which would look something like this:
10 - base
16 - natural (+20 strongheart if 40 str and less than 21 RDD levels)
a - armor without dex mod
16 - deflection
20 - dodge+haste
b - tumble (depends on skill level)
2 - armor skin
c - wisdom (if you have monk, subject to possible class ac bonus restrictions)
d - dex modifier
e - shield modifier (19 for Pentavite, 16 for large shields)
f - skill modifier (craft armor provides +1 to ac per 40 fully modified ranks)
g - class ac bonus
h - size modifier
Hit Points (Bort's Version):
Base HP = a + b + c + d
a = Hit die of class * Class levels, for each class (including legendary levels for control class).
b = Con modifier * 60
c = 60 hit points from Toughness, if you took it.
d = Pale Master bonuses, if applicable:
PMs get +3 HP bonus per Pale Master levels from 5-10 (up to +18).
Epic Pale Masters (level 10+) get +5 HP every 5 levels
(at 15, 20, 25 & 30, not including legendary levels, to a maximum of +20).
E.g. A character with 30 levels of Pale Master (not including LLs) would get +38 hitpoints).
Modified HP = Base HP + ((Added Con Modifier From Equipment) * 40)
Hit Die for Classes:
1d12 = Barbarian, Dwarven Defender
1d10 = Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Blackguard, Champion of Torm, Weapon Master
1d8 = Cleric, Druid, Monk, Arcane Archer, Shifter, Shadowdancer
1d6 = Bard, Rogue, Assassin, Harper Scout, Pale Master
1d4 = Sorceror, Wizard
RDDs get hit die increases as follows:
Level | Hit Die |
1 | d6 |
4 | d8 |
6 | d10 |
11 | d12 |
These are not retroactive, so RDD hit points for a level 10 RDD would be calculated as follows:
3*6 (rdd levels 1-3 *d6): +18
2*8 (rdd levels 4 and 5 *d8): +16
5*10 (rdd levels 6-10 *d10): +50
I'd give guidelines about what you'd want for each of these but they're different with each build so something like Mish's thread really isn't that possible. For instance, you'd want saves of at least 66 and fort saves of over 70 for a melee build if you plan to double demigod it but depending on the build, you can get away with less. There are also tradeoffs, etc. - I'd end up writing an encyclopedia on how to build every kind of character I know.