Post by chirality on Mar 18, 2010 7:03:16 GMT
First, a bit of backstory:
Alright, so after dozens of hours of thinking, reading, writing, and (finally) typing, I came up with a couple builds that, while borrowing heavily from the builds of others, are still slightly unique.
This build is the one that I've so far played to level 8, and am about to roll a new toon to try my luck with Round 2. The first incarnation was deleted, which was no big loss due to the fact that I had screwed up on my feat planning, and without the option to reincarnate (as a hardcore toon), it's just as well that I didn't waste any more time on it.
Since I've already mentioned it, I'll go ahead and explain where I originally messed up, and why the build I will post is slightly different than the original version; as well as why I had a tough choice in deciding which direction to go feat-wise. To put it simply, I had completely forgotten that Divine Might (and thus Divine Shield) carries the prerequisite of Power Attack--and, as a result, I had originally planned on completely skipping the Power Attack feat tree (up to and including Devastating Critical).
My reasoning behind this was twofold: First, in such a feat-hungy build open, and without being able to use either Dachy or Uroboros Vials, I decided that taking three feats (Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave) that would be effectively useless just wasn't worth the admittedly awesome critical hits from Overwhelming and Devasating Critical. Second, this build is similarly attribute-starved--which is even more detrimental than lack of feats--and with both extremely limited options for getting desirable starting ability scores and extremely limited epic/LL feats, I figured that being able to take Great Strength would help make up for this build's poor offensive power. And, finally, I figured that in addition to these reasons, the trade-off between having mega crits and doing more consistent damage against even crit-immune foes (including bosses, which I wanted to be as effective as possible against) was worth taking into consideration.
So, to continue with the story, I realized to my dismay that Power Attack was indeed necessary for the Divine feats, which were to be a fairly integral component of this build, at least pre-epic/LL, since Charisma would be the only respectable attribute until level 41. Thus, I was faced with a difficult decision--should I just take Power Attack and ditch the Extend Spell or Toughness that I had planned on, and otherwise continue as normal; or should I replace several feats (including epic/LL ones) with those necessary to go the Devastating Critical route?
Well, I never got anywhere close to having to decide, since my toon died and was deleted soon thereafter. However, after having my then-highest-level toon similarly get deleted earlier today, I've decided to give this build another shot, and thus have to choose on the feat path again.
So, I've decided to go ahead and continue with the original plan of ditching the Devastating Critical tree. To someone as obsessed with min-maxing as I, even a single wasted feat is a big deal, and in a pure paladin build--where feats are worth far more than their weight in gold--even moreso. The idea of taking Power Attack and getting nothing out of it really irks me, but I'm hoping that overall it will be worth it, and anyway I'm trying to just look at it as an "investment" feat.
Thus, the overall picture remains the same as I originally intended--no Devastating Critical, and hopefully this will work out.
This build is designed to harness the full power of a pure Legendary Paladin, and--due to using an open subrace as a foundation--will by all reasoning pretty much suck until at least level 41. My intent is to take advantage of the basic benefits of a pure paladin (including Legendary Level class features, spells, and so on; others have explained/argued this in much greater detail--and much more knowledgeably--than I can, so I won't bother re-hashing this), and suffer through what will surely be supbar performance at pre-Legendary Levels (and especially supbar performance at pre-epic levels) in order to obtain the 25 Charisma necessary to take all ten Great Smite feats.
That said, pros and cons should be fairly obvious.
[glow=green,2,300]Pros[/glow][/b] would be what I hope to be at least decent damage output (eventually); the benefits of a pure paladin's class features (from the lowly-yet-useful immunities to fear and disease up to Guardian Angel and the tasty Legendary Level attribute bonuses to both Strength and Charisma); full access to and maximum duration (excluding Extend Spell) of paladin spells; a powerful (and long-lasting) Divine Might for some much-needed damage-dealing power; and very powerful Smite Evil and Great Smites. Although lacking the improved offensive capabilities of an exotic weapons and Overwhelming/Devastating Critical, damage output should at least be very consistent and solid, with the irrestistible damage from Divine Might (and a high Charisma score to fuel it). At any rate, the damage output won't be drastically lowered when facing crit-immune foes, which should be worth something. As mentioned above, other pros are the basic and obvious paladin pros: high saving throws, etc.
[glow=green,2,300]Cons[/glow][/b] would be pretty clear-cut, and--in all likelihood--possibly insurmountable: Low physical ability scores, an unimpressive AC (although Divine Shield should help a bit until the dodge AC cap is reached), and just plain overall-unimpressive tank ability. With a final (pre-demi, pre-artifact) Strength score of only 42, AB and physical damage will be significantly lower than many tanks. Dexterity and Constitution are by no means high, and these scores will be downright pathetic in comparison to many unitanks; as a result, HP isn't much to brag about, and this build will be vulnerable to late-game Dexterity checks. Alright--let's be honest...saying Dexterity is "by no means high" is being a bit generous. Dexterity is just plain terrible.
So, without further ado, I bring you the Ineffectively-Attractive Pure Paladin[/color].
[glow=green,2,300]Class (Level):[/glow][glow=orange,1,100]Paladin (40)[/glow]
[glow=green,2,300]Race (Subrace): [/glow][glow=orange,1,100]Half-Elf (Nymphkin)[/glow]
[glow=green,2,300]Starting Ability Scores[/glow]
[glow=green,2,300]Build Progression Overview[/glow]
[glow=green,2,300]The Basics[/glow]
Alright, so the main selling points of this build revolve around a high Charisma and full access to paladin spells and class abilities. The first issue that had to be resolved was getting Charisma to 25 as soon as possible to meet the requirements for the Great Smiting feat, which powers the paladin's enhanced Greater Smiting ability as well as resulting in bonus Strength at level 41. With all ten Great Smiting feats, the following benefits are achieved: A Greater Smite may be performed once every 2.7 minutes, with 660 damage per smite; at level 41 we receive +10 bonus Strength; and each Smite Evil will deal 660 extra damage (with a minimum of a +10 modifier to the attack roll; this bonus does not count toward the +20 cap).
There's not much room for desirable feats in this build, so all we've really got are the basics.
My weapon of choice for this build is light flail, as it's one of the best one-handed martial weapons around, with 1d8 damage and critical statistics of 18-20/x2. This is simply my preference, and you can simply replace it with any other Medium martial weapon. Another good choice would be morningstar (due to dealing both Bludgeoning and Piercing physical damage, which comes in handy when dealing with enemies who are resistant/immune to a physical damage type).
With such a low Dexterity, this build receives the most benefit by far from heavy armor and a shield--the heavier the armor and the larger the shield, the better. Additionally, with no ranks in Parry, heavy armor provides some welcome protection against critical hits. Once your Strength hits 40 (at level 57!), as long as you have Death Ward in effect you'll be immune to critical hits--but until then, heavy armor is the best you can do.
So, the ideal basic gear set-up is full plate, tower shield, and light flail (or whichever weapon you prefer--but remember only simple and martial weapons are available!).
Even with an Intelligence of 12 and a bonus skill point each level from being a half-elf, skill points are fairly tight. You'll max Discipline from the start, and save the rest for maxing out Listen and putting 60 ranks into Tumble (at levels 51 and 45, respectively). The remaining 59 skill points will be split as evenly as possible between Craft Armor and Craft Weapon; so 29 in one and 30 in the other. They way I've worked it out, you can go ahead and start spending skill points on these two skills at level 1; as long as you stop at 29 and 30 you'll have enough points left for 63 ranks in Listen and 60 ranks in Tumble. However, if you're unsure, or just want to be safe, save all these skill points until after level 51.
Discipline is a class skill that's invaluable and necessary. This skill allows you to resist different checks, and as a result needs to be as high as possible.
Craft Armor and Craft Weapon are both class skills. Every 40 points in these skill grant a +1 bonus to Armor Class and Attack Bonus, respectively. Although this is useful, these two skills are the last priority when it comes to skill points, and as a result will not be maxed out.
Listen is a cross-class skill that is also invaluable. This skill allows you to have a better chance at hitting concealed enemies, and as this build lacks the Blindsight feat, Listen will be maxed out. Being a half-elf allows the Legendary Skill Afinity (listen) feat to be taken; after this feat is acquired at level 51, Listen is treated as a class skill. Starting at level 52, you will max this skill out.
Tumble is a cross-class skill that is again very important, as it provides a bonus to Armor Class. The Blooded feat is an "investment" feat that, while providing negligible benefits in and of itself, allows you to take the Legendary Skill Affinity (tumble) feat at level 45. At that point, Tumble is treated as a class skill, and you will put 60 (starting with 49 points at level 46) skill points in. This allows the maximum Armor Class bonus of +12 to be obtained.
Alright, these tables took way longer than I intended, and I'm going to have to come back and finish the detailed progression, as well as basic statistics, tomorrow.
Yeah, I know--spend less time on the code and more time on the actual content, right? Well, after the tables I figured I might as well take a few minutes to put in purdy colors. Or, conversely, irritating colors, depending on personal preference.
Either way, feel free to comment and critique for now; I'd appreciate any feedback. I think there's enough information here to figure out the basics, and you can draw some conclusions.
Please don't delete the thread for not adhering to posting guidelines--I just don't have time to bring it fully up to par right now, and after all this I wanted to at least post it.
Alright, so after dozens of hours of thinking, reading, writing, and (finally) typing, I came up with a couple builds that, while borrowing heavily from the builds of others, are still slightly unique.
This build is the one that I've so far played to level 8, and am about to roll a new toon to try my luck with Round 2. The first incarnation was deleted, which was no big loss due to the fact that I had screwed up on my feat planning, and without the option to reincarnate (as a hardcore toon), it's just as well that I didn't waste any more time on it.
Since I've already mentioned it, I'll go ahead and explain where I originally messed up, and why the build I will post is slightly different than the original version; as well as why I had a tough choice in deciding which direction to go feat-wise. To put it simply, I had completely forgotten that Divine Might (and thus Divine Shield) carries the prerequisite of Power Attack--and, as a result, I had originally planned on completely skipping the Power Attack feat tree (up to and including Devastating Critical).
My reasoning behind this was twofold: First, in such a feat-hungy build open, and without being able to use either Dachy or Uroboros Vials, I decided that taking three feats (Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave) that would be effectively useless just wasn't worth the admittedly awesome critical hits from Overwhelming and Devasating Critical. Second, this build is similarly attribute-starved--which is even more detrimental than lack of feats--and with both extremely limited options for getting desirable starting ability scores and extremely limited epic/LL feats, I figured that being able to take Great Strength would help make up for this build's poor offensive power. And, finally, I figured that in addition to these reasons, the trade-off between having mega crits and doing more consistent damage against even crit-immune foes (including bosses, which I wanted to be as effective as possible against) was worth taking into consideration.
So, to continue with the story, I realized to my dismay that Power Attack was indeed necessary for the Divine feats, which were to be a fairly integral component of this build, at least pre-epic/LL, since Charisma would be the only respectable attribute until level 41. Thus, I was faced with a difficult decision--should I just take Power Attack and ditch the Extend Spell or Toughness that I had planned on, and otherwise continue as normal; or should I replace several feats (including epic/LL ones) with those necessary to go the Devastating Critical route?
Well, I never got anywhere close to having to decide, since my toon died and was deleted soon thereafter. However, after having my then-highest-level toon similarly get deleted earlier today, I've decided to give this build another shot, and thus have to choose on the feat path again.
So, I've decided to go ahead and continue with the original plan of ditching the Devastating Critical tree. To someone as obsessed with min-maxing as I, even a single wasted feat is a big deal, and in a pure paladin build--where feats are worth far more than their weight in gold--even moreso. The idea of taking Power Attack and getting nothing out of it really irks me, but I'm hoping that overall it will be worth it, and anyway I'm trying to just look at it as an "investment" feat.
Thus, the overall picture remains the same as I originally intended--no Devastating Critical, and hopefully this will work out.
This build is designed to harness the full power of a pure Legendary Paladin, and--due to using an open subrace as a foundation--will by all reasoning pretty much suck until at least level 41. My intent is to take advantage of the basic benefits of a pure paladin (including Legendary Level class features, spells, and so on; others have explained/argued this in much greater detail--and much more knowledgeably--than I can, so I won't bother re-hashing this), and suffer through what will surely be supbar performance at pre-Legendary Levels (and especially supbar performance at pre-epic levels) in order to obtain the 25 Charisma necessary to take all ten Great Smite feats.
That said, pros and cons should be fairly obvious.
[glow=green,2,300]Pros[/glow][/b] would be what I hope to be at least decent damage output (eventually); the benefits of a pure paladin's class features (from the lowly-yet-useful immunities to fear and disease up to Guardian Angel and the tasty Legendary Level attribute bonuses to both Strength and Charisma); full access to and maximum duration (excluding Extend Spell) of paladin spells; a powerful (and long-lasting) Divine Might for some much-needed damage-dealing power; and very powerful Smite Evil and Great Smites. Although lacking the improved offensive capabilities of an exotic weapons and Overwhelming/Devastating Critical, damage output should at least be very consistent and solid, with the irrestistible damage from Divine Might (and a high Charisma score to fuel it). At any rate, the damage output won't be drastically lowered when facing crit-immune foes, which should be worth something. As mentioned above, other pros are the basic and obvious paladin pros: high saving throws, etc.
[glow=green,2,300]Cons[/glow][/b] would be pretty clear-cut, and--in all likelihood--possibly insurmountable: Low physical ability scores, an unimpressive AC (although Divine Shield should help a bit until the dodge AC cap is reached), and just plain overall-unimpressive tank ability. With a final (pre-demi, pre-artifact) Strength score of only 42, AB and physical damage will be significantly lower than many tanks. Dexterity and Constitution are by no means high, and these scores will be downright pathetic in comparison to many unitanks; as a result, HP isn't much to brag about, and this build will be vulnerable to late-game Dexterity checks. Alright--let's be honest...saying Dexterity is "by no means high" is being a bit generous. Dexterity is just plain terrible.
So, without further ado, I bring you the Ineffectively-Attractive Pure Paladin[/color].
[glow=green,2,300]Class (Level):[/glow][glow=orange,1,100]Paladin (40)[/glow]
[glow=green,2,300]Race (Subrace): [/glow][glow=orange,1,100]Half-Elf (Nymphkin)[/glow]
[glow=green,2,300]Starting Ability Scores[/glow]
Attribute | Initial | After Subrace |
Strength | 14 | 14 |
Dexterity | 8 | 7 |
Constitution | 12 | 12 |
Intelligence | 12 | 12 |
Wisdom | 15 | 14 |
Charisma | 15 | 17 |
[glow=green,2,300]Build Progression Overview[/glow]
Level | Feat {Bonus} | Ability Point (Base Score) | Class Feature | Legendary Level Benefit |
1 | Blooded | Divine Grace, Divine Health, Lay On Hands | ||
2 | Aura of Courage, Smite Evil | |||
3 | Power Attack | Remove Disease, Turn Undead | ||
4 | Charisma (18) | Spellcasting | ||
5 | Summon Mount | |||
6 | Divine Might | |||
7 | ||||
8 | Charisma (19) | |||
9 | Divine Shield | |||
10 | ||||
11 | ||||
12 | Improved Critical (light flail) | Charisma (20) | ||
13 | ||||
14 | ||||
15 | Weapon Focus (light flail) | |||
16 | Charisma (21) | |||
17 | ||||
18 | Greater Weapon Focus (light flail) | |||
19 | ||||
20 | Charisma (22) | Enhanced Greater Smite | ||
21 | Great Charisma 1 | Divine Might/Shield Duration: Doubled | ||
22 | ||||
23 | Epic Weapon Focus (light flail) {Bonus} | |||
24 | Great Charisma 2 | Charisma (25) | ||
25 | ||||
26 | Great Smiting I {Bonus} | |||
27 | Great Smiting II | |||
28 | Strength (15) | |||
29 | Great Smiting III {Bonus} | |||
30 | Great Smiting IV | Guardian Angel | ||
31 | ||||
32 | Great Smiting V {Bonus} | Strength (16) | ||
33 | Great Smiting VI | |||
34 | ||||
35 | Great Smiting VII {Bonus} | |||
36 | Great Smiting VII | Strength (17) | ||
37 | ||||
38 | Great Smiting IX {Bonus} | |||
39 | Great Smiting X | |||
40 | Strength (18) | Mass Resurrection | ||
41 | Divine Might/Shield Duration: Tripled | +10 Strength (via Great Smiting X) | ||
42 | Epic Prowess | Strength (29) | ||
43 | ||||
44 | Strength (30) | |||
45 | Legendary Skill Affinity (tumble) | Strength +1 (31); Charisma +1 (26) | ||
46 | Strength (32) | |||
47 | ||||
48 | Legendary Weapon Focus (light flail) | Strength (33) | ||
49 | ||||
50 | Strength (34) | Strength +1 (35); Charisma +1 (27) | ||
51 | Legendary Skill Affinity (listen) | |||
52 | Strength (36) | |||
53 | Armor Skin* | |||
54 | Strength (37) | |||
55 | Strength +1 (38); Charisma +1 (28) | |||
56 | Strength (39) | |||
57 | Great Strength I | |||
58 | Strength (41) | |||
59 | ||||
60 | Great Strength II | Strength (43) | Strength +1 (44); Charisma +1 (29) |
[glow=green,2,300]The Basics[/glow]
Alright, so the main selling points of this build revolve around a high Charisma and full access to paladin spells and class abilities. The first issue that had to be resolved was getting Charisma to 25 as soon as possible to meet the requirements for the Great Smiting feat, which powers the paladin's enhanced Greater Smiting ability as well as resulting in bonus Strength at level 41. With all ten Great Smiting feats, the following benefits are achieved: A Greater Smite may be performed once every 2.7 minutes, with 660 damage per smite; at level 41 we receive +10 bonus Strength; and each Smite Evil will deal 660 extra damage (with a minimum of a +10 modifier to the attack roll; this bonus does not count toward the +20 cap).
There's not much room for desirable feats in this build, so all we've really got are the basics.
My weapon of choice for this build is light flail, as it's one of the best one-handed martial weapons around, with 1d8 damage and critical statistics of 18-20/x2. This is simply my preference, and you can simply replace it with any other Medium martial weapon. Another good choice would be morningstar (due to dealing both Bludgeoning and Piercing physical damage, which comes in handy when dealing with enemies who are resistant/immune to a physical damage type).
With such a low Dexterity, this build receives the most benefit by far from heavy armor and a shield--the heavier the armor and the larger the shield, the better. Additionally, with no ranks in Parry, heavy armor provides some welcome protection against critical hits. Once your Strength hits 40 (at level 57!), as long as you have Death Ward in effect you'll be immune to critical hits--but until then, heavy armor is the best you can do.
So, the ideal basic gear set-up is full plate, tower shield, and light flail (or whichever weapon you prefer--but remember only simple and martial weapons are available!).
Even with an Intelligence of 12 and a bonus skill point each level from being a half-elf, skill points are fairly tight. You'll max Discipline from the start, and save the rest for maxing out Listen and putting 60 ranks into Tumble (at levels 51 and 45, respectively). The remaining 59 skill points will be split as evenly as possible between Craft Armor and Craft Weapon; so 29 in one and 30 in the other. They way I've worked it out, you can go ahead and start spending skill points on these two skills at level 1; as long as you stop at 29 and 30 you'll have enough points left for 63 ranks in Listen and 60 ranks in Tumble. However, if you're unsure, or just want to be safe, save all these skill points until after level 51.
Discipline is a class skill that's invaluable and necessary. This skill allows you to resist different checks, and as a result needs to be as high as possible.
Craft Armor and Craft Weapon are both class skills. Every 40 points in these skill grant a +1 bonus to Armor Class and Attack Bonus, respectively. Although this is useful, these two skills are the last priority when it comes to skill points, and as a result will not be maxed out.
Listen is a cross-class skill that is also invaluable. This skill allows you to have a better chance at hitting concealed enemies, and as this build lacks the Blindsight feat, Listen will be maxed out. Being a half-elf allows the Legendary Skill Afinity (listen) feat to be taken; after this feat is acquired at level 51, Listen is treated as a class skill. Starting at level 52, you will max this skill out.
Tumble is a cross-class skill that is again very important, as it provides a bonus to Armor Class. The Blooded feat is an "investment" feat that, while providing negligible benefits in and of itself, allows you to take the Legendary Skill Affinity (tumble) feat at level 45. At that point, Tumble is treated as a class skill, and you will put 60 (starting with 49 points at level 46) skill points in. This allows the maximum Armor Class bonus of +12 to be obtained.
Alright, these tables took way longer than I intended, and I'm going to have to come back and finish the detailed progression, as well as basic statistics, tomorrow.
Yeah, I know--spend less time on the code and more time on the actual content, right? Well, after the tables I figured I might as well take a few minutes to put in purdy colors. Or, conversely, irritating colors, depending on personal preference.
Either way, feel free to comment and critique for now; I'd appreciate any feedback. I think there's enough information here to figure out the basics, and you can draw some conclusions.
Please don't delete the thread for not adhering to posting guidelines--I just don't have time to bring it fully up to par right now, and after all this I wanted to at least post it.