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Post by desocupado on Jan 25, 2013 16:11:02 GMT
Overview - Can do all rogue duties after demi x1 (incidentally doable after your first Demigod cycle)
- Need SF Search either from gear or as a feat to find all secrets (an aug is required on the first nessus run)
- Non-negible Physical damage (penetrating strike adds up) - specially true against critical immune targets
- Maximum DC potential
- Great saves after demihood due blackguard splash
- Almost always attempts two MS per round even with massive concealment due assassin dagger
Optimized for | Level 60, Immortal
| Level 80, Demi x2 and/or OC/DC gear (max DC) | Build | Rogue 4 / Assassin 30 / Blackguard 6 | Rogue 4 / Assassin 30 / Blackguard 6 | Race/Subrace | Human (+1 skill point per level, 1 extra feat) Half-Molydeus (Hide/MS +6, reduces planar effects by 1 layer. Feats: ESF: Hide, Snakeblood) | Human (+1 skill point per level, 1 extra feat) Half-Molydeus (Hide/MS +6, reduces planar effects by 1 layer. Feats: ESF: Hide, Snakeblood) | Level order | Rogue 4, Assassin 10, BG 6, Assassin 20 | Rogue 4, Assassin 10, BG 6, Assassin 20 | Abilities at character creation (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha) | Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 08 Cha 10
| Str 18 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 08 Cha 08
| Pre-epic and epic ability progression | Strength 10 | Strength 10 | Legendary level ability progression | Strength 10 | Strength 10 | Pre-epic feats | 1 Bullheaded & Iron Will 3 Power Attack 6 Cleave 9 Weapon Focus: Assassin Dagger 12 G. Cleave Cleave 15 IC: Assassin Dagger 18 Extend Spell | 1 Bullheaded & Iron Will 3 Power Attack 6 Cleave 9 Weapon Focus: Assassin Dagger 12 G. Cleave Cleave (SF Search/Toughness/GMW if OC/DC gear) 15 IC: Assassin Dagger 18 Extend Spell | Epic feats | 21 Epic Weapon Focus 24 Great Strength I & OC 27 DC 28 Great Strength II 30 Armor Skin 32 Great Strength III 33 Epic Prowess 36 Great Strength IV Great Strength V 39 ESF: Open Lock 40 Great Strength VI | 21 Epic Weapon Focus 24 Great Strength I & OC (Str+1 if OC/DC gear) 27 DC (Str+1 if OC/Dc gear) 28 Great Strength II 30 Armor Skin 32 Great Strength III 33 Epic Prowess 36 Great Strength IV Great Strength V 39 ESF: Open Lock 40 Great Strength VI | Legendary level feats | 42 Legendary Weapon Focus 45 Great Strength VII 48 Great Strength VIII 51 Great Strength IX 54 LSA: Discipline 57 LSA: Parry 60 Legendary Will (+7) | 42 Legendary Weapon Focus 45 Great Strength VII 48 Great Strength VIII 51 Great Strength IX (SF Search/Toughness/GMW if OC/DC gear) 54 LSA: Discipline 57 LSA: Parry 60 Legendary Will (+7) | Paragon level feats | 63 Great Strength X 66 PWF 69 Paragon of Balance (Dex+4) 72 Adaptivity I 75 Adaptivity II 78 Adapitivity III | 63 Great Strength X (if OC/DC grab Legendary Disarm) 66 PWF 69 Paragon of Balance (Dex+4) 72 Adaptivity I 75 Adaptivity II 78 Adapitivity III | Tome | Illusion | Illusion | Artifact | Hand of Vecna for stun immunity and Str mod | Hand of Vecna for stun immunity and Str mod | Pandect | Disarm | Disarm | Base abilities Abilities (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha) | 52, 14, 14, 16, 06, 10 (at level 60)
| 58, 18, 18, 22, 12, 14 | Skills | (Grab 2 ranks of Move silently and Hide at character creation) Concentration: 23* (31 at 60) (*max BG at 20 - VERY important) CA 30 Discipline: 63 (After LSA Discipline) Disable trap 63 Hide: 63 Listen: 63 Open Lock 63 Parry: 63 (After LSA Parry) Search 63 Tumble: 60 Paragon Skill points: (Parry +10 Discipline+10 Hide+10 CA+20 Search+10) | (Grab 2 ranks of Move silently and Hide at character creation) Concentration: 23* (31 at 60) (*max BG at 20 - VERY important) CA 30 Discipline: 63 (After LSA Discipline) Disable trap 63 Hide: 63 Listen: 63 Open Lock 63 Parry: 63 (After LSA Parry) Search 63 Tumble: 60 Paragon Skill points: (Parry +10 Discipline+10 Hide+10 CA+20 Search+10) | AB | 93 (max = 115) CL 50 Div Power (+3) True Strike (+5) Strength (demi, demix2, gear+14, gear+16, paragon Str+feat ) (+5) Artifact (+1) PBAB (+5) GWF (+1) (if you take it) PWF (+2) | 96 (up to 118!) CL 50 Div Power (+3) True Strike (+5) Strength (demi, demix2, gear+14, gear+16, paragon Str) (+5) Artifact (+1) PBAB (+5) GWF (+1) (if you take it) PWF (+2) | AC | 125 - Concealment 60% +3 Asmodeus artifact +3 Strongheart +4 Guirding of Faithful (it's possible to change to medium armor for more +2 AC)
| 125 - Concealment 60% +3 Asmodeus artifact +3 Strongheart +4 Guirding of Faithful (it's possible to change to medium armor for more +2 AC) | Mortal Strike DC | 35 +7/LL +13/str +1/pom +1/ego = 57 (+14 gear) (+3 DC with x2, Str artifact & Paragon Strength and +16 gear) | 35 +7/LL +17/str +1/pom +1/ego = 61 (+16 gear) | Saves (Fort, Ref, Will) | 62, 62, 63 (+12 gear) | 72, 72, 74 (+14 gear) |
Notes: You need SF: Search to be able to find DC 127 secrets (The augment is quite common). You need either demix1 (Or skill focus) to disable DC 127 traps (so you can do it in gr after beating Asmodeus). You really should use an equipment with CL50+ Divine Power.
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Post by desocupado on Jan 25, 2013 16:11:22 GMT
F.A.Q.Why assassin dagger?- It has the highest critical range of all weapons (up to 13 -> 65% critical with OC/DC), meaning you will land Penetrating and Mortal Strikes more often and sooner (Weapons with 3 critical threat range land 23% less critical hits and have twice as much chance to not land a Mortal strike in a given flurry - 2 attacks - 25% chance vs 12% chance)
- The low critical damage isn't an issue, since you instant kill non-critical hit immune foes
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The only other weapon with huge benefits would be the Halberd (with dual damage type) but you'd need a large Subrace or monk splash to use it effectively - To effectively attempt two MS per turn you want to use this weapon
But I prefer to use another weapon to do more damage with critical hits. Which one should I choose?- With just martial proficiency you should choose one of the high threat martial medium sized trio: Light Flail, Rapier or Scimitar.
- Their 18-20/x2 becomes 11-20/x3 meaning 195% dps with critical hits (and the higher multiplier eases bypassing resistances)
- Piercing damage (Rapier) is generally best for Elysium, Rona and Abyss.
- Bludgeoning damage (Light Flail) is most desirable in hells and against undead.
- Slashing (Scimitar) is pretty good at Abo and Abyss.
How come you AB gets high enough to Disarm?- If you use Divine power you'll get LBAB 15 instead of 12 due the Blackguard/Fighter levels. The Plate of Uxan Uldorath and the Wrap of the Dark Prince provide this powerful buff.
- On top of +20 Magical AB bonus, True strike provides a stacking AB boost of CL/10, thereof it's possible to get +4/+5 (depending on class breakdown)
- Well since Assassin is a DC based class, you need to maximize your Primary Stat for maximum DC and get a nice AB boost in the process.
How should I use spells?- True Strike - Since it's a quick action that doesn't make you flat foot, use at will, but make sure to reserve some castings for disarming. Memorize as many as you can (if possible leave caustic weapon to a druid).
- Iron Silence - This spell removes the skill penalty for Hide, thereof increasing your conceal from Improved Invisibility (Camouflage)
- Foe bane - Some foes, like advespas, have critical immunity but lack Death Magic immunity - if you cast this spell you'll be able to use Mortal Strike against foes susceptible to Death Magic for about half a minute. I would memorize 3-6 castings per rest.
- Wrack - It decreases All resistances, so it's worth to try it in foes with high resistances. I would memorize 1-3 castings per rest.
What about poisons? Are they any good?
- In theory they provide several powerful abilities.
- They last 5 turns (minutes)
- The cost between 100-300 million at demishop (stygia) and also drop at hive. These items provide 3-5 uses (need to confirm the numbers)
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Post by arek on Jan 26, 2013 2:36:03 GMT
Assassin Dagger on a strength-based assassin? I really don't like that idea. STR Assassins are partly about instakills and partly about damage - they're a kind of hybrid class in that regard. If you're going for a pure instakiller, A Dex-Based Brownie or Half-Fiend will do every bit as well. For a medium-sized SnB STR assassin I would consider one of the Scimitar, Rapier, or Light Flail. You'll lose about 10-15% of your crits/deathblows, but you won't get your STR Damage bonus halved, plus you'll gain a point of crit multiplier for more damage (you'll go from x3 to x4 in this case).
By the numbers (100 swings) Assassin dagger: 17-20/x1 (8-20/x3 with feats/keen): 5 attacks/round over 20 rounds (100 swings): - Damage per swing is (34/2 from STR - halved for small wep) = 17 + 20 + 12 + 5 = 54 + 84 from penetrating strike when it lands (not multiplied). - 35 regular hits for 54 damage = 1890 damage. - 65 crits for 3 * 54 = 162 + 83 = 245 damage = 15,925 damage and 65 forced saves vs death (penetrating strike damage doesn't get multiplied). - Total: 17,815 physical damage over 20 rounds. Light Flail/Scimmy/Rapier: 18-20/x2 (11-20/x4 with feats/keen): same 100 swings as above: - Damage per Swing is 34 + 20 + 12 + 5 = 71 + 84 from pen. strike. - 50 regular hits for 71 damage each = 3550 damage. - 50 crits for 4 * 73 = 292 + 83 = 375 damage = 18,750 damage from crits and 50 saves. - Total: 22,300 physical damage over 20 rounds.
That's a ~20% difference. Accounting for elemental damage will probably reduce this to anywhere from 10-15% depending on the target and its resists/immunities. That's still huge. And if funky makes it so that wieilding a "relatively-small" weapon halves all damage instead of just STR damage your damage goes right in the gutter.
As for losing 15 forced saves over 20 rounds...that's less than 1 forced save per round. And you're still limited to 1 kill/round. With +1 attack from Uxan plate (or Wrap later), you're still getting 3 chances per round to kill, and you're only 1dc off engine-max with this, so you'll still have a decent chance of instakilling MS-ables quickly.
Something I would seriously consider, Deso. :-)
--Arek
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Post by desocupado on Jan 26, 2013 3:46:17 GMT
Assassin dagger is (17-20/x1) i.e. with keen IC OC/DC (8-20/x2) - can't be a weapon of choice - This build doesn't have Weapon Master, nor can it be used with assassin dagger so that's one less multiplier potential over your numbers. This decreases the difference by a good amount.
- I'm aware that my critical hits just make my dps 160% against foes vulnerable to critical hits while a 18-20/x2 weapon (11-10/x3 with the bonuses) would do 195% dps.
- Resistance bypassing is surely inferior for Assassin dagger (x2 versus x3). So Ideally I should use a level 50 weapon instead of as generic buffed DB weapon.
- Against critical AND death immune targets (I have a versatile Foebane spell, unlike a ranger), penetrating strikes will occur 65% of the time, adding an extra chunk of damage (Assassin level + Str mod). i.e. Higher critical range increases dps against critical immune targets.
- Light weapons don't currently suffer any modifier to Strength's physical damage bonus. It's the off-hand weapons have Str mod cut to half.
- As I stated before, critical damage isn't important. As Assassin. I'm supposed to Instant kill critable foes (unless they have Parry 120+ in which case they would take 50% critical damage anyway). 88% chance to do a High DC mortal strike every flurry, helps me accomplish this objective faster.
- The extra attack make me do 6 attacks per round (2 attacks per flurry), that's the origin of the numbers 75% (50%*50% - chance of not doing a mortal strike) and 88% (35%*35% - as before)
- 65% critical hit rate versus 50% critical rate means 30% more critical hits (since this is a change of ratio, their compared frequency would be (65/50)/100 or (50/65)/100 depending in which direction you go).
Well the high threat martial medium sized trio: Light Flail, Rapier, Scimitar are surely considerable weapons, I'll add them as notes. But I prefer directing my dps towards Critical immune foes (using more Penetrating strikes) and more frequent Mortal strikes for the trash I'm supposed to instant kill.
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Post by chirality on Jan 26, 2013 17:32:45 GMT
I have to agree with arek here. I don't see the benefit in going Str and using ass dagger over other alternatives to maximize damage at the expense of MS. After all you are already 1 DC down.
Well I have never played a high-level assassin but penetrating strike always seems pretty bland to me even on high-Str builds. IIRC the damage isn't integrated so it doesn't penetrate resist/imm/soak very well. I can only recall my own experiences in 40ish play and watching other Str assassins in LLs/hells and to me it ended up looking like PS is kind of like pre-fix Whetstone. Maybe this changes by endgame conditions where PS is actually delivering nice damage, but even then I am not seeing why you would want to rely on PS for physical damage rather than maximizing that damage with a different weapon choice.
You have good points about crits but then you are not max DC in the first place so you may want to consider the importance of dishing out a lot more crit damage for when they don't roll low enough to die.
Also I'm surprised you did not try out a two-hander style like the Dangerously Demented Decapitator. It seems nowadays with the 50% dmg boost this would be pretty fun.
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Post by desocupado on Jan 26, 2013 22:09:22 GMT
Well I have never played a high-level assassin but penetrating strike always seems pretty bland to me even on high-Str builds. IIRC the damage isn't integrated so it doesn't penetrate resist/imm/soak very well. I can only recall my own experiences in 40ish play and watching other Str assassins in LLs/hells and to me it ended up looking like PS is kind of like pre-fix Whetstone. Maybe this changes by endgame conditions where PS is actually delivering nice damage, but even then I am not seeing why you would want to rely on PS for physical damage rather than maximizing that damage with a different weapon choice. - I played before with a Dex Assassin (up to demi), now I'm using a Str one (at stygia atm) and I can see some visible numbers rising for Penetrating strikes.
- While my numbers need more testing, it seems noticeable against some foes like Kroachons and Baatorian Golems so far (about 50) . Against some others it gets low as 10 as well. In LL areas like Uro I see 60.
- Well penetrating strike deals a decent base damage but it seems that soak seems to affect it very much, ignoring the weapon enhancement bonus. Like the old wheatstone I suppose.
I have to agree with arek here. I don't see the benefit in going Str and using ass dagger over other alternatives to maximize damage at the expense of MS. After all you are already 1 DC down. ... You have good points about crits but then you are not max DC in the first place so you may want to consider the importance of dishing out a lot more crit damage for when they don't roll low enough to die. - Benefit: More frequent Mortal Strikes (for non-crit immune) and Penetrating Strikes (for both crit immune foes and non-crit immune) versus Less frequent Mortal Strikes, Penetrating strikes and Less critical hits and more Critical damage
- More critical damage isn't as meaningful since the whole point of Mortal Strike is instant kill.
- The deal is, I played a Shifter with Drow shape (which uses a Morning star and Mortal strike) and I really feel that landing the Mortal Strike ASSAP is what matter most as an assassin.
- Well reducing the chance of attempting mortal strikes doesn't help with less 1 DC on Mortal Strikes (if anything it makes it even worse)
- Now, a build with Weapon master would surely benefit greatly from the increased critical damage.
Right now I'm using the Rogue build (no divine might or weapon spec but maximum DC). The physical damage already seems to be adding nicely (I'll pay a bit more attention to the log for now) but of course I don't really compete with people with weapon master levels, 2 extra attacks or 150%-two handed damage. Also I'm surprised you did not try out a two-hander style like the Dangerously Demented Decapitator. It seems nowadays with the 50% dmg boost this would be pretty fun. Also that build has 2 less DC (Strength -8) and much worse saves
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Post by chirality on Jan 26, 2013 22:35:32 GMT
Ok Well, what about dual scimmy then? afaik a double weapon is the only way to get MS with offhand attacks. This is an interesting option if you are concerned with getting the MS off as early in the round as possible (as Mish points out in his old minja thread, dual wielding ass daggers has the benefit of producing more MS threats in the first flurry due to the engine, even though you can't hone the offhand weap). If you're dedicated to still being a solid tank then yeah shieldless Str is not a good idea. I was just thinking, I remembered in !chat or something the other day there was talk of Str ass to try optimizing both MS and phys damage, so when i saw this build thread it's what I thought of. Str scimmy would be bad defense but fun offense although it would be trading two hander damage for better MS. i hear with some demi iterations and the right gear they can tank well enough but without it these toons are pretty fragile, the main one I have seen personally (UR sub, ur/bur kit) ... no offense rock ;D i don't think rock's can 1v1 a pharlan Anyway thanks for the feedback on PS, as I said I was unsure in "real" game areas. In that case it doesn't sound half bad although yeah I'm pretty sure soak pwns it. Your numbers sound pretty good. I guess I always am unimpressed by the ability description numbers and watching on toons without PS base damage nearly as high as yours (lacking probably in the order of 5-10 points of Str and possibly 5-10 levels depending on your toon). For crit imms they still take no bonus PS damage if they make the save and only 1/4 of that base number (level + Str) if they fail. On the other hand crittables take far more PS damage--1/4 if they save and 1/2 if they fail. So PS really has more synergy with high damage on crittables anyway. It's just extra insurance if they don't get MS--or what about Foebane, with high damage to crittables then you don't have as much hassle using foebane since some crittable trash can be killed fairly quickly via massive damage application anyway. edit: actually I have to wonder if some of the numbers you were seeing for PS such as 50s and 60s were even on crittables, as it seems impossible to reach that high on a crit imm even with a failed save (seems reasonable max would cap out at about 140-150ish base calculation, let's say 150 for level 80 toon (70 assassin levels) with 80 str..divided by 4 would be 37.5 points of damage on a failed save for crit imm, and that before any resist/imm/soak. or it is also possible that the class ability description is typoed/outdated and the PS damage calculation is better than that, so I could be completely mistaken
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Post by desocupado on Jan 26, 2013 23:25:19 GMT
Well since I have Assassin 29 (or 30) it goes as follows: Well, if a critical immune enemy make his save damage will be 1/4, otherwise it's full damage. --As an Assassin ones needs to rely on save droppers, it can't be helped (btw: Half-Molydeus get a stacking -1 Layer penalty as subrace bonus). --So another scenario where the assassin dagger isn't better is when the party can't drop the enemies saves decently enough (Tough I wouldn't call a DC 57-60 Mortal Strike exactly easy to make). --By the way you can make several penetrating strikes per roundGoing full offensive- Yeah going shieldless I would sacrifice the ability to walk around the mobs (without dying) and pick my priority targets for Mortal Strike
- The damage gain is not worth as Assassin's features (Concealment 60-65%) don't allow them to be a viable low AC characters.
- Using a double weapon would required too many feat I don't have
- Well dual wielding, in the best scenario (4+2+1+1 attacks) you'd make the 6 main hand attacks on the first 2 flurries. This means a range (18-20) weapon would have (.5*.5*.5) 12,5% chance of not landing a Mortal strike in the first or in the second flurry. That's what my assassin dagger does with my 6 attacks (2 per flurries) ---> Now try to fit these feats and Base Dex 15 on a DC based Str toon who is also a searcher.
Outdated numbers- On a side note, I have no reason to believe that Paragon levels count for Penetrating Strike damage so my calculation (49+Strength mod for build 1 - 77-83) should be accurate.
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Post by chirality on Jan 27, 2013 6:08:26 GMT
Yeah I'm stupid forgot PS is actually gained first and then MS improves, when I went back to read I only looked at the first PS well by the way i am not trying to down your overall goal here at all, i have not messed with assassins in a while (due to not having a bur sub for it ) but I was really into making assassins to optimize physical damage with PS. although like I said I still seem to remember being disappointed but again that would be due to being a low base number toon overall.
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Post by Vichya on Jan 27, 2013 7:45:12 GMT
- Piercing damage (Rapier) is generally best for Elysium and Rona.
- Bludgeoning damage (Light Flail) is most desirable in hells and against undead.
- Slashing (Scimitar) is pretty good at Abo and Abyss.
From my experience I would say that: Bludgeoning is good in Hell and Abyss, Piercing is good in Elysium and Abyss, Slashing is good in Abo and Elysium.
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Post by desocupado on Jan 27, 2013 17:56:06 GMT
- Piercing damage (Rapier) is generally best for Elysium and Rona.
- Bludgeoning damage (Light Flail) is most desirable in hells and against undead.
- Slashing (Scimitar) is pretty good at Abo and Abyss.
From my experience I would say that: Bludgeoning is good in Hell and Abyss, Piercing is good in Elysium and Abyss, Slashing is good in Abo and Elysium. Added. Excluding ABO and slashing damage, I'd say all damage types are viable everywhere. But even for Abo, the assassin can use poison (Level drain maybe? And Constitution damage for sure) to make up for a bad damage type. On a side note, In Hells, Slashing is notably good against Malebranche (Who destroy you due low base Dex) and Terrible against Pitfiends (who you can tank decently).
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Post by desocupado on Apr 15, 2013 2:43:07 GMT
Removed previous build #1 fighter splash and -1dc for weapon specialization.
Tough extra damage is nice, rogue features and more dc is too good to pass up
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Post by desocupado on Oct 13, 2016 23:52:46 GMT
The assassin buff helps this build a great deal - now it can attempt 2 ms per turn on different flurries. This also render the martial weapon trio much less desirable.
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Post by Terankar on May 25, 2017 10:22:44 GMT
Is the penetrating strikes still affected by the issue with enhancement not counting towards bypassing soak?
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