Darkest Black (10 Ftr / 30 BG)

OP forum account was last active in 2013, so I wouldn't expect a response from that player.

The early levelup point into Dex would be to hit the 15 prereq for Ambidexterity. You would not need to invest that for using a scythe, but then again, you also need to change quite a bit about this build anyway without going for the two-weapon fighting route, as well as doing 2 more wisdom as stated in order to cast L3 and L4 spells (of which L4 in particular is "critical" as the spell Death Ward will provide crit imm after hitting 40 base Str). That said, it's also highly-recommended to keep at least 14 base dex, for the purpose of making some common ability checks in Hell and other later-game areas; lower dex than this leaves you vulnerable to some very annoying and consistently-occurring disables.

The purpose of all the Charisma is to take advantage of some of the most important class features of blackguard (as well as other, similar classes--we refer to them as "divine tanks," so you'll often see people ingame or on the forums talk about classes like paladin or blackguard in this way). If you check out the documentation for these classes, you will find that Divine Might and Divine Shield have both been adjusted on HG and favoring high cha (to the tune of Might providing 1.5x Cha mod in +phys damage for non-quasi bg--nothing to sneeze at--and with a considerable duration boost as well; and Shield providing a small shield AC bonus also scaling off Cha mod when proper conditions are met).

With divine grace already offering amazing saves with high cha, the investment for builds such as this capitalize on the damage boost from divine might and the defensive benefits of div shield, as well as the improved smiting mechanic on HG, which benefits greatly from Cha (however, without extra smiting, full advantage is not taken of this feature). Div shield provides both a useful dodge AC bonus (to maintain the +20 cap even lacking bard song under penalties), as well as a shield AC bonus. However, for this build, that shield ac amount is paltry, and fails to produce a tank that has AC even approaching the point of being viable for LL+ content (with 121 being ~8-10 points below what a sword-and-board Str tank runs in L55-60 zones like Hell or harder LL runs). There are similar shieldless (using two-handed or dual-wield weapons) divine tank builds that seek to focus Charisma in order to attain some respectable AC, but given that the calculation is very demanding (Cha mod/2), these builds tend to require a far higher Charisma investment to hit a reasonable AC when relying on the div shield as a replacement for either a real shield or a monk splash.

I would not recommend this build. Although the fact that it's 10 years old is a good indication that it warrants a close look to check if it's up to date in the first place (please keep this in mind going forward--there are many, many, many outdated builds; always check the date of posting/last activity), the build concept/archetype itself actually hasn't changed much. In fact, if anything, the double-sided weapon focus of this particular build is favored by the current meta, whereas for most of the past 10 years, it would have been a poor choice over a two-handed weapon. There's nothing inherently broken or out-of-date here, with the underlying mechanics, theme, archetype, subrace choice, and overall build rationale remaining almost entirely unaffected over the past decade. If you have the pharlan sub, that is already a great starting point to making a divine tank, without which you would be suffering even more painful of a handicap than lacking demigodhood.

However, it should be noted that "div tanks" such as this build gain an enormous benefit from being double demi (+4 total to all stats, as well as the ability to wear an "asmo arti" which translates into a crucial +AC boost and stat boost), and shieldless builds such as this are advised to be avoided for x0 demi toons. The AC of 121 "most of the time" is absolutely horrendous and the max of 125 is barely an improvement, and not enough of an improvement to make this more than a glassy carpet tank. That said, party play and the presence of other tank(s) goes a long way toward making playing a fragile tank doable, and it's not as if you'll be unable to enjoy the game or participate in runs with such a toon. You will not find very much success at surviving the aggro of multiple mobs in later game content by following this build path. Of course, the game has many vets, and is full of hardy tanks that can help obviate the need for you to serve in the role of a "tank" in the first place.

I would advise against scythe, as it is a rather poor option in the current meta, essentially costing an exotic feat for negligible benefit (effectively translating to the difference of a couple points of base physical damage vs martial weapons), and underperforming vs comparable martial weapons in terms of crit dps (due to scythe's single-digit base crit threat receiving smaller benefit from stacked range-enhancing features vs even 19-20, and x4 multiplier not being enough of a "benefit" to make up for the reduced damage in comparison to a 19-20/x3 or 18-20/x2 weapon after applying the range increases from successive doublings). That said, it's fun and cool, and not in high demand, and if you like it, full steam ahead.

There's quite more to be said in regards to adjusting this build to be suited for a 2handed weapon (including reallocating the TWF feats, or lacking them entirely, with less fighter levels), as well as addressing some other subpar choices made. In particular, the 10 fighter levels are ill-suited for a build that doesn't require so many feats to pull off twf, while fighter provides access to the weapon spec tree (scaled up to an impressive and effective level on HG, with the capstone paragon level feat netting +20), which was skipped entirely on this build; Hide as a class skill, which is great for many tanks on HG due to offering a higher conceal % from the camouflage party buff, which is missing and should be maxed; and the AB could be improved a bit. The smiting aspect seems to be the rationale for going full 30 bg levels, but other build paths could involve dropping bg levels (while still maintaining full advantage of bg spells) in favor of bringing a second splash into the mix.

All this is a bit aside from the point, which is that this build is a poor choice for you (or, bluntly, for anyone, in fact). I would suggest asking ingame or posting more on forums to see about other options that can still suit your desires. You do have access (or, are you saying your spirit animal is a pharlan blackguard?) to the best BUR subrace for a x0 blackguard, which certainly provides the opportunity to build and play a very solid toon. It also provides the opportunity to play a very fragile 2her or dual-wielder per the theme of this build, which you definitely could pursue; but in that case, several changes would be recommended in comparison to this build, to "make the most" of it.

Good luck, sorry for the wall, but I hope it was somewhat useful.

I would like to go (5) something, maybe rougue? (35) BG. For the LL cha and str bonus. I just dont know enough about character building to know if thats a “late game” possibility.
But then I am wondering the benefit of taking over 21 BG levels pre 40 because thats all you “need” for the bonus,
I would just like as pure a BG as I can get. That deals a cracked amount of damage who is quick and shifty and can hang with the big bois, wielding a scythe of course. If you have a starting path to make this a possibility id love to see it and test it.

Okay from what i am reading there are negative effects of a quasi blackguard, which isn't really what id prefer to begin with. So I think making the 10 fighter work somehow will be my route for now. Ty

I think you misunderstood a few things.

First, the way legendary levels work is that the 41-60 "LLs" are determined by your "CC" or Control Class. The class for these 20 levels is set depending on the 1-40 build you have created. In the case of a tie (in other words, for a build that has an exact even split between 2 different classes--such as a build that is 20/20, or any other build that doesn't have one class exceeding the other(s) by at least 1 level), the first class that was taken is automatically set as the Control Class. Otherwise, the class that has the most levels by the time of level 40 is set as the CC. This means that, hypothetically speaking, if you were to make a build with 21 blackguard levels, with the remaining 19 levels as any other combination, the CC would be blackguard, and legendary levels 41-60 (and paragon levels 61-80) would be blackguard. Once the CC has been set, the character receives any applicable benefits from being a "legendary" member of that class, so to use the +str and +cha bonus attribute points for being a blackguard as an example, you would get those even with only 21 blackguard levels in the pre-LL build.

When he mentioned quasiclasses, he was talking about special cases that often have a strange hybrid split between two "main" classes, which the standard non-quasiclass character would never choose; this is because quasiclasses generally require high levels of two qualifying classes, whereas non-quasiclass characters tend to go for one primary class (which is usually far above 20 of the 1-40 levels) and have one or two "splash" classes that fill in the rest. So while a base class like a paladin could have 35 levels pre-LL, a prestige class like blackguard is limited to a maximum of 30 levels pre-LL.

The difference between 1-40 levels and legendary levels may be a bit confusing, because there are certain class-based features that legendary levels count towards and stack with 1-40 levels with for the purpose of determining "total" level (for example, spellcasting caster level or "CL"), and other things that the legendary levels do not count towards. You should read through the documentation to get a thorough understanding of the way it works, since it is of utmost importance for building a character.

When we refer to levels or the "spread" of classes in a build, it is understood that the variation involved is only accounting for the "real" 1-40 levels, and so when it comes to something like "35 levels of blackguard," the takeaway is that any character is limited to 30 "real" levels of blackguard, but at the same time, by definition, any legendary character with control class blackguard can have up to 50 (30 + 20 LLs) effective levels of the blackguard class for the purpose of determining certain features like spellcasting or smite AB (not including paladin levels--see below).

Second, the difference between less than 30 blackguard levels is very distinct from being a quasiclass blackguard. Being a quasiclass requires a specific sort of build that hits certain requirements to "qualify" for "quasiclass status" by a given level, at which point very drastic mechanical changes are introduced to the build, but we won't bother getting into that now. However, you could have as few as 21 blackguard levels in the 1-40 build and still be a "Legendary Blackguard" that has all 20 LLs as blackguard levels and not be a quasiclassed blackguard (without being built specifically for one of the 2 blackguard quasiclasses--lash of hatred or bane knight).

There are almost no benefits to having full 30 blackguard levels in the 1-40 spread. This is why most blackguard builds don't go for 30. I believe the OP intended the full 30 levels on this build to make for a good smite AB, but this still leaves a mediocre smite AB of 90 (smite AB maxes at 100 for a "pure" smiter), which is another reason why this build is rather strange and bad.

The general rule for paladins and blackguards (which share many overlapping features, including very similar spellcasting ability) is that you want to be able to hit the minimum caster level (after factoring in LLs) to get the most out of important spells (blackguard lacks a couple of paladin's powerful buffs, so is primarily concerned only with maxing weapon buff bonus dice, and secondarily with having a death ward of reasonable duration). Another benefit is smite AB, and another (even more rarely-seen) benefit is turning level. The smite AB for a non-smiter focused build (aka, one that doesn't involve paladin levels) is going to be low in the first place in comparison to a "smiter", and the difference between 30 blackguard and, for example, 28 or 26 blackguard is not very important or noticeable. Turning is a can of worms that I won't bother getting into, but the point is that a build like this is primarily concerned with getting the most optimal mix of goodies possible from the blackguard levels and the other class or two worth of pre-LL levels. These goodies on the blackguard side are spellcasting level first and foremost, and then basic class feature min-maxing such as bonus epic feats and sneak attack dice.

For example, the 28 or 26 blackguard levels I mentioned above are points at which a build still hits the "goal" minimum CL of 46 (for the full bonus dice from frost and bless weapon--refer to the linked spell list in my earlier post ), with a little extra room for squeezing in another couple levels in the pre-LL splash classes. Level 28 gets the final blackguard bonus epic feat and final sneak attack dice, leaving 40 - 28 = 12 pre-LL levels to play with for other classes; 26 blackguard is only 1 "extra" level past the level 25 bonus feat, and is the minimum to go for hitting all bonus dice on frost and bless weapon, and only 4 CLs down from the "non-fallen-paladin" max of 50 for the purpose of getting a solid duration on CL-scaling buffs such as death ward (again, refer to the HG-customized spell list).

So, going back to the above mention of caster levels, control class, and legendary levels, this means that with the assumed "goal" of hitting level 60 (the effective limit for most spellcasting in the game, with few exceptions, none of which apply for blackguards) a paladin maxes out at 60 CL and a blackguard at 50 CL (unless some or all of other 10 levels are paladin, in which case a special "fallen paladin" rule applies and the paladin levels are counted together with blackguard levels for spellcasting and smiting). Again, this is due to the fact that a paladin can have all 40 levels "pre-LL" as paladin, so 20 LLs added to that is 60; on the other hand, a blackguard is limited to 30 blackguard levels pre-LL, so a blackguard with no paladin levels maxes out at CL 50 (30 pre-LL plus 20 LL). To make this more clear, a blackguard with 10 paladin levels (or "30/10" as we would call it) would have CL 60 at level 60, versus a blackguard 30/fighter 10 having CL 50 at level 60; a blackguard with 3 paladin levels would have CL 53 (50 blackguard + 3 paladin) at level 60.

Third, you can cast fom--it's a nice perk of being a blackguard (although most builds won't hit the final tier of speed boost, which requires CL 59--but the tier-2 speed of CL 46 [notice it happens to be the same as the two weapon buffs--no coincidence ] is pretty solid). Don't forget you need 10 + spell level base Wisdom (so 14 for L4 spell like fom) and, more importantly, use the custom !simTool blackguard spellbook (interact with a conversation by using the command !sb ch bg [ch is short for change, but you only need first 2 letters for these commands]), not the vanilla NWN spellbook pane.

Fourth, keeping up with the big boys is pretty much the opposite of what a glassy build like this does. If you want to keep up with the big boys, you want to prioritize survival, so you can actually spend as much time possible alive and contributing to the run, even if your damage output seems lackluster. This can't be stressed or emphasized enough. Spending time dead or rebuffing or running/hiding from mobs is very much the flip side of keeping up with the big boys. As I said before, you can have fun playing whatever, but I can assure you that the game is very unforgiving when it comes to getting hit a lot and dying a lot (especially since buffs--both your own and from other partymates--are of extreme importance in LL+ play). At any rate, you will have a better experience of what this is like, I'm sure, by the time you are doing the later pre-LL content and into immortality at the upper 30s-40 range.

Right. Exactly as I mentioned.



I suppose that--much like going dire mace, as I said above--it's technically better now than any other time in the last decade, given the buffs to both turning and smiting.

I agree that it is far from a good tank or a good turner.



Correct. Providing both bonus feats and access to weap spec makes fighter one of the best splash classes for bg. I'd argue it's even the best for non-monk builds (of course mnk/ftr is probably this guy's best bet to achieve a remotely-playable 2her at x0).



Indeed, although much like the extra feats required for two-weapon fighting, this route is very costly (and pharlan lacks wm enabler feats). It's a great option as a splash, generally speaking, and I suppose since the abyss/hell cycle tagging change, wm is a bit better now for a starter toon (considering that crits for abyss cycles will be more useful than the old tradition of largely focusing on hells for several full cycles before going to abyss--now it's obviously a better option to focus abyss entirely after hitting demi 2). That said, much like hs or pdk, I don't think this concept at x0 has the "headroom" to do much other than mnk/ftr. Speaking of abyss vs hells for a starter, it's also worth noting that a blackguard's sneak attacks are going to provide a bit more oomph on an abyss-cycling starter than the past hell-focused career, where those sneaks were almost entirely inconsequential for anything other than padding logger damage on trash mobs.



HS is unpopular for good reason at the moment, but regardless, I would definitely not advise that splash for a toon that will obviously be possuming multiple times per map. The advantages are certainly "interesting," but I think it's definitely the worst option of his available splash choices from the list of monk, fighter, weaponmaster, and pdk (I'd maaaaybe include rogue as an option for non-monk build--it'd be a way to get evasion and cheap sneak dice). PDK provides interesting advantages as well, and I considered suggesting it above, although like weaponmaster, it's difficult to consider this build concept realistically without monk splash, and I would tend toward fighter's bonus feats outweighing pdk benefits for this guy, so I believe mnk/pdk would be inferior to mnk/ftr. Ultimately, this toon is going to struggle at basic survival, and I think it's hard to recommend anything other than monk/fighter for this particular case.



This is a fact. I would recommend a standard sword-and-board BK in a heartbeat over anything even remotely resembling this build.



I'm confident that this is also a fact (as has always and likely will always be the case), although it is worth noting that the implementation of poisons did give blackguards a nice (and very expensive) feather in their cap. As a newbie is likely not going to have the cash anytime soon to truly capitalize on this, however, it doesn't really merit entering the conversation here. Also, as touched on above, it's worth pointing out that sneak attacks being useful in areas other than hell also deserve mentioning (in contrast to "legacy mode" where these sneaks were not meriting discussion for a starter hell-focused bg). Until blackguard-specific spellbuffs and gearing is equal to paladins' they will always be worse, although in theory, without any buffs, a new zone that highly favors cold damage, sneak attacks, and filled with good-aligned creatures to smite would make blackguard better than paladin (hyperbole aside, just the first two would likely be enough to put bg in a very favorable light). Blackguard's terrible minismite makes them objectively worse (by a large margin) as a smiter than paladin. In fact, the last smiting buff actually removed the carrot of blackguard being able to smite neutral enemies, so while smiting itself is technically better now than in the past decade, blackguard smiters are even worse in comparison to paladin smiters than ever before.



I believe it would certainly be far better than anything resembling OP build. That said, it also has so little resemblance to OP build or the discussion at hand that it's hardly relevant at all to this conversation.

What is the base requirement for the Great Smite feat?