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Post by dodrudon on Dec 3, 2008 7:24:10 GMT
Concept: max Wis shifter, Wildshape x3, Undead x2, Construct x2
Race: Elven Anarch (+2 Dex, +2 Con, +6 Wis) (Alertness, Armor Skin, some other goodies)
Stats:
WIS 18 -> 24
INT 16
CON 12 -> 14 (set to 10 at creation)
rest at minimum
7 Pre-Epic Feats
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Toughness
Weapon Focus: Unarmed
Expertise
Improved Expertise
Heavy Armor Proficiency
Great Fortitude
Lightning Reflexes
13 Epic Feats
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Great Wis x10
Undead Shape
Construct Shape
Epic Weapon Focus: Unarmed
7 Epic Feats
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LFF Wildshape x3
LFF Undead x2
LFF Construct x2
Read Spell Penetration book (for Drider)
Probably will want Wis arti
Skills (7/lvl x 60 lvls + 21 (bonus L1 points) = 441 skill points)
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63 - Animal Empathy
103 - Discipline (dump at L40 (43), then use Able Learner (3x20))
94 - Tumble (dump at L40 (43), then use Able Learner to 60 (51))
63 - Craft Armor
63 - Listen
55 points left, for Concentration for various skill checks (I plan on using the Asmo crit rod, if you don't, I'd recommend Parry instead, or Craft Weapon if you want some more points of AB)
Notes
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I'll be double demi, so I'm probably gonna use the Ruby Rod for Crit immunity.
One tier of LFF unlocks quite a few abilities:
o For Outsiders
-> Fire Immunity Aura for Azer Chieftan
-> Greater Thunderclap and AoE Breach for Raks
-> Rapid Reload for Modron.
o For Undead
-> on-hit Slay Living for Risen Lord
-> Empower Ally (+1 CL for an ally) for Baelnorn (not yet implemented)
-> Fear Aura (-2 saves) on Banshee (stacks with everything but RDD and Barb auras).
o For Constructs
-> Infesting Touch (useless) and Focused Immunity Aura (not yet implemented) for Demonflesh
-> Crumple Armor (useless) for Iron Golem
-> Siege Mode for Stone Golem
-> Daze Aura for Crystal Golem
-> Grappling Chain (para) for Marut.
Of course, my AC, AB, and DC for these will be lower than usual by 2 points. This only slightly worries me for tank shapes, like Risen Lord and possibly one of the Constructs (not that I really plan on tanking).
I don't feel it's all that important for Undead, as Basilisk is both infinite shift, and has a higher DC AND an AoE AND doesn't require you to land a hit to cause death. The Banshee aura might be nice, though there will highly likely be more important things for you to do than walk around with it on (unless you're Wailing, in which case the aura here would probably make it better than the Basilisk's). Empower Ally will be good for allies who have only splashed a single class as a caster.
Constructs have some interesting abilities, like Daze Aura, though their ACs aren't all too great.
Is my AC gonna be too low? Hopefully not.... With max Wisdom and distributed form foci, I hope to be able to have a variety of useful abilities at decently high DCs, sacrificing a bit of defense (meh, just a tad (2 points) of AC) and AB.
Thoughts?
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Post by Egg on Dec 3, 2008 8:27:06 GMT
It's interesting that you went with a x1 of the other legendary forms instead of choosing one and maxing to x3 - I hadn't thought of doing this but your reasoning behind it makes sense. Have you taken the new forms into hell yet? Or at least hellgate arena. I'd be interested to hear how they performed. Thanks for posting.  |
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Post by dodrudon on Dec 3, 2008 8:29:48 GMT
Done nothing yet (except look at numbers), looking for feedback from those who have before reincarnating.
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Post by rocksmasher on Dec 3, 2008 17:59:34 GMT
Re-incarnated mine and was disappointed at the low dc's of the various shifted form effects. No way to max all shapes to x3 Legendary focus so I guess you have to make your decision on what forms will be most useful for the types of runs you plan on making. I maxed the dragon forms and they seen to be functional and do nice damage with the breath weapon and have the wing buffet. Might have to wait and see what works after some trial and error in the Hells and beyond. Rock
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Post by dodrudon on Dec 4, 2008 8:32:51 GMT
Some thoughts:
3/2/2 would probably be a better spread. I definitely want to keep Outsider in the mix, but a second LFF in it is just wasted. One level of LFF in Undead doesn't buy all too much either. Can't drop Wildshape to 2 either, cuz it's used too often. Maybe I'll just go 3/3/1 with Construct and Outsider 1 after all. Maybe not. I'd go 3/2/2 Undead/Construct if I didn't want that single Outsider focus so badly. If I dropped Wildshape to 2, I could put that feat into Outsider.... I guess 2 Outsider for AC wouldn't be too bad (pardon the pun), as I anticipate being in Death Slaad form for some fights. Modron abilities might be useful too, though again it might not be. Heck, maybe I should drop Outsider after all. AoE breaches are nice in Abos I guess, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. And not everybody needs Confusion immunity. Go get that 'thids helm jeeze. Yeah, then I could go 2/2 Construct/Undead....
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Post by MurphysLawAgain on Dec 4, 2008 10:12:35 GMT
Its nice to see that someone else is thrashing round and round on this one as well Dod.
Firstly I am concerned whether the forms AC will be good enough at 60 without maxing them. Even as a casting form you are going to collect a few hits, shifters are constantly prowling round the fight looking for the best angle to use a cone attack. With mid 80's AC anything in hell will eat you for breakfast.... not that 90 will be a lot better but their 4th and 5th attacks might miss.
I also have some concerns about investing in forms but not getting enough uses of them. For a dragon tank its not normally an issue, but outsider and undead (to a lesser extent construct) look like they will encourage lots of form shifts to use abilities. Even with 6 per rest you are going to have to use them sparingly. With only 4 you dont have much margin for error.
Another consideration is AB. Without more combat feats and maxed forms I think you completely miss out on the value of the tank forms. Slay living sounds great, unless you need a 20 to hit your target. At which point it looks like a waste. This does come down to play style though. If you see your shifter as an "ability mage" then I guess it doesnt matter so much. If you see them as a true generalist, then you will want to get more combat power in there. You said you dont plan on tanking, so it looks like your going "abilitymage". Also the lack of epic save feats supports that position, casters can get away with less than tanks.
If as I assume you are going for a general caster type, then that simplifies your feat choices a little. Dragon and humanoids are tanks and therefore out. Constructs are split tank / short range effect types, so probably out (you dont have the saves or attack feats to make the most of them). This leaves Outsider and Undead and the choice between 3 - 1 and 2 - 2.
I hope this helps a little with your decision making process, even if only by inducing laughter and snorts of "but of course I must have construct because .....". I am tending towards a build with a few more combat feats (AB & saves) and 2 focii. These will be Wildshape and probably Construct. I am still trying to understand how badly the limit of 6 construct shapes per rest will constrain me because Humanoid does look very tempting at times.
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Post by dodrudon on Dec 4, 2008 21:58:01 GMT
Thanks for the feedback. The only form I'm concerned with AB on is Wyvern, everything else is just a touch attack. For Constructs, I'm more for their abilities (Daze Aura theoretically would be very nice, as does Siege Mode) than their attack capabilities. Don't plan on using Risen Lord's Slay Living (would rather use Basilisk), but Banshee's Wail, Spectre's Shadow Touch and Bestow Curse, and posFoD are all very nice. I think I might go Construct 2 and Undead 2. Outsider 1 just isn't worth it for just Abos. The only thing I'd miss from that (apart from AoE breach) is the anti-confusion aura and the Fear Howl (which would be low DC anyways, being Rank 5, and why is that on Outsiders and not undead?!). Great Thunderclap's sonic damage can be had through other means, and though the effects are nice, they don't last long (except Deafen, which Bards hate, and also prevents further Sonic damage from affecting them). Azer Fireblast rocks.... but breaks loot. And with its huge range, I'm not too confident using it. And Modrons too. They just look too cool, and a hasted one running around is just hilarious Oh gosh, that above paragraph reads like I'm in denial. *sob*  My favorite thing about this build is getting Disc and Tumble maxed without spending legendary feats. I'm thinking of dropping Disc from something else though, like Listen. After all, you can't get slagged while shifted. Of course, you do spend some time unshifted, but those should be rare enough that a few Scrolls of Miser can't fix, or just throw a spare on. Are there any other Disc checks anywhere? Wait scratch that, I can drop Concentration if I don't go Outsider (Rak). |
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Post by MurphysLawAgain on Dec 4, 2008 22:13:30 GMT
Well Dod, I just bit the bullet and reincarnated with a very similar build to this. I went for more combat & save feats, in the epic lvls and still haven't decided whether to go 3 Construct with Epic Listen or 2 Construct, 2 Humanoid. Since my shifter is only lvl 52 I guess I have time to figure it out. With some tank feats I think that unlimited lash / assassin forms have value - if only I knew how much  |
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Post by dodrudon on Dec 4, 2008 22:21:47 GMT
Oh nice! Forgot that Humanoids are free. Yummy With Listen being a Wis skill, I don't think you'll need ESF Listen. On my current Shifter, it stays in the hundred-teens in Hell, and those last 10 points just simply aren't worth the feat, given the teensy amount of gain they give. |
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Post by maljin on Dec 5, 2008 10:54:18 GMT
Currently leveling a hc shifter also using an elf based (open) subby so I can get both parry and tumble to 60 ranks while only using one lsa to max out two form foci. I decided to drop all weapon focus feats (and get imp expertise) and rely on abilities (just like before the changes); gotta see if this is gonna work. As I think the dc's of the abilities are quite low without the feats I still gotta decide between undead, outsider and construct for my second LFF III. I think construct is quite nice but as those all have quite nice ab they may make better forms for a shifter with some ab feats who wants to support the other tanks from time to time; same with undead: risen lord won't hit that much without those feats, so I guess slay living won't be that great. But if I'll go outsider I'd miss posifods, which seems a rather nice boss-killer compared to death slaad spittle or beholder rays.
Another build I've come up with is a melee based shifter with only one LFF III (most likely humanoid) who's able to switch between assassin death attack and lash inflicts or some ranged damage if melee is too dangerous. Take enough ranger levels pre-epic to get that 4 attack; your caster level will be lower with less shifter levels but as the dc (for death attack or the sahuagin web) depends on wis this one shouldn't suffer too much. I probably won't start this one until I get an idea of the new abilities, but it's certainly lined up.
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Post by dodrudon on Dec 27, 2008 18:23:45 GMT
Updated initial post:
- went with Improved Expertise, useful for forms that perform repetitive tasks
- constructs + undead
- fixed skills (added Listen for all the touch attacks)
A few things:
- went Toughness over Blindfight or Improved Critical: Unarmed.
- took Epic Weapon Focus: Unarmed, could replace this with Outsider for more options (and drop Weapon Focus: Unarmed for something else)
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Post by uncanny on Jan 5, 2010 15:10:42 GMT
This would be an ideal reason to test with a lvl60 in the test chamber.. Earning those levels is rough for some of us just to "try it out"...
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