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Post by desocupado on Sept 8, 2011 1:06:21 GMT
Well, I'm posting this more for reference, I don't claim it to be a powerful build or anything like that. It's a quite "different" (i.e. silly) approach for a Theurge, using divine epics with arcane spells . It's an old build I tried for some time, and end up being frustrated, as it was my first immortal caster, and I couldn't disintegrate anything right away, knew of any rebuke-able target or had decent DC at lower levels. I would not recommend it!
But as silly as they idea sounds, Throwing orbs, fogs, tentacles, rebukes and disintegrates can be fun if your tanks are well buffed in the front lines. If you know enemies vulnerabilities, not only orb damage is great, but Enchantment school is very powerful at disabling.Any suggestion or idea is welcome. (Heralds fit the conjuration/enchantment role better, but this guy can access all orbs, and has some handy epics - but this build was used before they were around) Now onto the build: Overview:Pros:4 Cleric epics - Gird, IoF, Miracle and Anihilation 3 LSF Conj Enchantment and Transmutation Enough Skill points to max concentration, craft armor, heal, lore, parry, spellcraft & more Many buffs for tanks - i.e. Cleric epics - Fire/Cold/Elec & keen Good rez bot, as it can afford lvl 9 cleric spell slots for it Many "soup" spellsCons:Use Wizard spells only up to level 8 (which contains the most relevant Enchant, Transmutation and Conjuration spells) - This also means you lose about 10 level 9 spell slots, as INT doesn't add bonus slots if you can't cast level 9 spells naturally. Less than maximum DC (8 great int) Bad saves (while Will is 60, Fortitude and Reflex are abysmal 47) Bad at counterspelling as it doesn't get Mordenkain's Disjunction--Creation--Race: Elf Subrace: Stargazer (or Drow Noble, if you are lucky) Alignment: any Evil
Str 8 Dex 10 Con 10 Wis 16 (+4) Int 18 (+4) Cha 8 (-2)---Progression---All attribute points in Intelligence 10 Wizard -> 10 Cleric (Plant & War domains) 7 Cleric -> 5 Wizard -> 8 ClericMake sure to grab all Orb spells, Disintegrate & Rebuke on Wizard levels. Grab as many HG spells you can as the regular spells can be learned form scrolls. You will need a few arcane research crystals to learn all orb spells. --Feat progression ---Pre-epic = 7 + 2 (Wizard)
1 SF Conj 3 GSF Conj 5 Extend Spell 6 Empower Spell 9 SF Trans 10 GSF Trans 12 SF Enchantment 15 GSF Enchantment 18 GSF Divination
-Epic = 7 +1 (epic cleric bonus) +1 (wizard bonus) 21 Great int +1 24 Great int +2 27 ESF Conj 30 ESF Trans 32 Great int +3 33 Great int +4 35 ESF Enchant 36 Great int +5 39 Great int +6
-Legendary = 7 --Use Tome of Spell penetration 42 LSF Conjuration 45 ESF Divination 48 LSF Enchantment 51 Legendary Spell penetration 54 LSF Transmutation 57 Great int +7 60 Great int +8--Gear guidelines---You will want many Wizard level 9 slots to use empowered greater orbs, as they are your trademark spell. -Using gear with spell focuses allow greater flexibility for some specific purposes, like using UTD or Banishment - Ego items can overcome Theurges -1 CL, as can the Sigil of Mystra.---Using tips---
Keep EV up all the time, it's your main defense along with premonition and energy buffer. Since you have superior range with Orbs and disintegrate, avoid getting near the enemy. Keep a debilitating Fog on enemies all the time. Make casting grease a habit. Mind Fog + Rebuke is a very strong combo, if the enemies are vulnerable to mind spells. It will also help casters using Weird. Remember This character has access to many damage "soups": Acid Cloud, Freezing Cloud, Evard's Tentacles, Cloudkill, Blade Barrier, Creeping Doom & Storm of Vengeance. (it's notable that Blade barrier has more AB than Evard's regardless of intelligence) Memorize many "True resurrection" (Cleric IX) and raise any fallen party member readily from long range with bonus hp. Domain justificaiton is quite simple. Plant allows Creeping doom. War grants Aura of vitality, that can buff the party for +12 in all abilities, and dodge ac by +9. Combined with UeF that's +20 dodge ac with CL 59. --Options--Ditch Miracle for 2 more Great Int feats (it was my first option. but since the build is crazy and miracle is handy, I went the other way) If using Drow Noble, as it can one more rank of divination, it's possible to sacrifice either LSF Transmutation or Enchantment and get 10 great intelligence feats.
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Post by simpetar on Sept 8, 2011 10:30:49 GMT
(it's notable that Evard's and Blade barrier have the same AB, around 74-77 at 60 with +12 gear) I believe they do not. Everards AB takes Intelligence in account, BB takes Wisdom. Still, BB should hit at occasions too. Healing domain is an interesting option, but I am not totally sold on its usefulness. You mention freeing lvl 6 slots for Harm, moving Heal lower. However from my own experience, for removing festering, few copies of Heal are needed through the entire run (4-5 in book per rest), or even fewer Mass Heal. In addition, Harm is useful in LLs and Abyss, but not something that you would spam continuously. Especially when a lot of your time will be spent by laying down soups and orbs. I also believe the Healing domain empower boost on healing spells does not apply to HG spells like Mass Cure XY which - together with Mass Heal, GR and Healing Circle - will probably be the only relevant spells you will cast, should you take the responsibility of keeping your party alive. I suggest that you take a look at the War domain and AoV in it. It will fill your book with another useful spell when you are druid short and extra AC is needed. simpetar
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Post by desocupado on Sept 8, 2011 11:15:11 GMT
(it's notable that Evard's and Blade barrier have the same AB, around 74-77 at 60 with +12 gear) I believe they do not. Everards AB takes Intelligence in account, BB takes Wisdom. Still, BB should hit at occasions too. Truth is: Blade barrier still have more AB (lol). Calculations made with level 60 and with +12 gear. Evards Black Tentacles - Creates 1 tentacle/CL. Each tentacle does CLd3 bludgeoning damage. - Tentacle AB is (5/6 CL) + (caster modifier / 2) + (Conj foci * 3). = 49 + 13 + 12 = 74 Blade Barrier - Is now a Conjuration spell and ignores SR. - Creates 1 blade/CL. Each blade does CLd4 slashing damage. - Blade AB is CL + (caster modifier / 2) + (Conj foci * 3). = 59 + 5 + 12 = 76 Healing domain is an interesting option, but I am not totally sold on its usefulness. You mention freeing lvl 6 slots for Harm, moving Heal lower. However from my own experience, for removing festering, few copies of Heal are needed through the entire run (4-5 in book per rest), or even fewer Mass Heal. In addition, Harm is useful in LLs and Abyss, but not something that you would spam continuously. Especially when a lot of your time will be spent by laying down soups and orbs. I also believe the Healing domain empower boost on healing spells does not apply to HG spells like Mass Cure XY which - together with Mass Heal, GR and Healing Circle - will probably be the only relevant spells you will cast, should you take the responsibility of keeping your party alive. I suggest that you take a look at the War domain and AoV in it. It will fill your book with another useful spell when you are druid short and extra AC is needed. simpetar It's indeed a good reasoning as Mass heal > Heal. Also AoV has some interesting utility even it overlaps a bit with UEF, but is useful as an Ability buffer. (i.e. this can can grant +20 dodge ac with spells alone in this case)
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Post by simpetar on Sept 8, 2011 20:07:17 GMT
-Using gear with spell focuses allow greater flexibility for some specific purposes, like using UTD or Banishment -Dulvuroth's Soul Jar is a great item to get as it's bonus CL make up for Theurge's -1 CL, the duration is enough for buffing at least. -Getting a Wizard Ego item is advisable. Soul Jar has little use for this build. In order to activate it, you need to land 3 ED; your cleric version is weak (low wisdom), wizard version is non-existent. Instead, I would suggest using the Sigil of Mystra as arti choice, to buff yourself in dire need. IMHO cleric +1 CL ego (Kingpriest's) will benefit this build more than DC wizard ego. 60 cleric CL gives you access to -5 drop from Battletide as well as 2 more rounds of extended GR. I admit not having +1 DC for the only two long ranged (when mobs will be outside BT radius) - Disintegrate and FtS - can cause an issue, but... being self-GRed 2 more rounds makes up fotr it. Not to mention that Elminster's augmented items often cost you arm, leg, and your youngest kid ;D simpetar
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Post by Yojimbo on Sept 8, 2011 21:28:34 GMT
How does a Wizard or Cleric CL Ego effect a Theurge I would guess a +1 CL from either would give you a total CL of 60 for any spell as calculation is WIZ CL + Cleric CL - 1. I don't get why you go CC Cleric and focus in INT as your cleric spells won't receive any benefit beyond WIS mod and Spell Foci as applicable. You only viable DC spells will be from Wizard which you are limited to level 8. You will only have 1 per day that you can memorize + bonus from gear. I have heard INT score effect the number of spell slots you can memorize too but Im not sure if thats true or the calculation. The flaw here is the spells you are most likely going to rely on for offense will have a more limited number per day.
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Post by desocupado on Sept 9, 2011 0:29:35 GMT
-Dulvuroth's Soul Jar is a great item to get as it's bonus CL make up for Theurge's -1 CL, the duration is enough for buffing at least. -Getting a Wizard Ego item is advisable. Soul Jar has little use for this build. In order to activate it, you need to land 3 ED; your cleric version is weak (low wisdom), wizard version is non-existent. Instead, I would suggest using the Sigil of Mystra as arti choice, to buff yourself in dire need. I always tough the jar gave a temporary level, not that it could just hold them. My bad. (fixed) -Getting a Wizard Ego item is advisable. IMHO cleric +1 CL ego (Kingpriest's) will benefit this build more than DC wizard ego. 60 cleric CL gives you access to -5 drop from Battletide as well as 2 more rounds of extended GR. I admit not having +1 DC for the only two long ranged (when mobs will be outside BT radius) - Disintegrate and FtS - can cause an issue, but... being self-GRed 2 more rounds makes up fotr it. Not to mention that Elminster's augmented items often cost you arm, leg, and your youngest kid ;D simpetar It's kinda risky to use battletide without gate, but the benefit can pay off indeed. Specially if you have no son anymore. How does a Wizard or Cleric CL Ego effect a Theurge I would guess a +1 CL from either would give you a total CL of 60 for any spell as calculation is WIZ CL + Cleric CL - 1. No clue either, but I suppose they affect the spell formulas not the caster himself. I don't get why you go CC Cleric and focus in INT as your cleric spells won't receive any benefit beyond WIS mod and Spell Foci as applicable. The best justification is: "just because you can". But a few people also play a staffmaster without a staff, Who can blame them? On the build's defense, I should point that only level 9 offensive arcane spell of either Transmutation, Enchantment or Conjuration school is Maze. (Gate and BBoD are the other two). You only viable DC spells will be from Wizard which you are limited to level 8. You will only have 1 per day that you can memorize + bonus from gear. I have heard INT score effect the number of spell slots you can memorize too but Im not sure if thats true or the calculation. The flaw here is the spells you are most likely going to rely on for offense will have a more limited number per day. Wizard 20 x 15 has a few slots more of level 7/8/9 -> i.e. 2/3/4 spells Also, the number of bonus spell slots: At int 52+ is 6/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4 That means it loses 2/3/8 spells from levels 7/8/9. Info gotten on nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Ability_modifier
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Post by chirality on Sept 9, 2011 1:53:11 GMT
I would agree with simpetar as far as the usefulness of the Healing domain goes--I was very excited at low levels (and by low I mean low) but it quickly became less than good basically due to the reasons he mentioned. Of course back then the cleric domain spell thing had yet to be fixed and maybe that change is better now. Still, Healing seemed very disappointing to me very quickly--and I never played a toon with it (here on HG) even past epic levels so I would imagine it only gets worse. Anyway, interesting build, although I believe you would find it extremely aggravating to play. Let me know how it turns out though....it's more or less the type of build that I like playing anyway.
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Post by desocupado on Sept 9, 2011 3:29:26 GMT
Well I played with it from 1-57 as stargazer, as it was my first UR subby and I always tought: "Theurges are cool". The memories are from 10 months ago mostly, so things are kinda blurry.
In Pre-LL areas, it was just another caster (i.e. easier than melee). Having several buff made it easy to get party and the wide spell book allowed me to damage the hardest bosses (35 tags and dragons). Using soups is a cakewalk, as these mobs don't have kickback. Orbs do pretty damage on common bosses, and harm is very useful. The most problematic foe was the achers due crappy ac. At 40 when i got the epic spells everything was bit more satisfying. As everyone loves IoF Guird. Anihilation acts like a super hell ball, with 2 round kd and blindness. It's quite handy (like starfire, illusion arcane epic)
Legendary levels
Desert: This area is pretty much the most confortable zone, but it really increased my hatred for archers, perhaps my gear was pretty bad at this time, I'm not totally sure. Anyway, things felt kinda odd, I set the soups, then, threw some acid and elec orbs around, feeling a bit of envy of people with evocation spells. Harm was a nice touch occasionally tough, as it was to rez people from distance. Oddly enough, I found myself using SoV pretty often, even at half damage it was good (as most cleric don't get lore, you end with almost the same damage of them).
Myco: I think I couldn't cover sonic and acid immunities back then, and the slingers really pissed me off. Maybe a two man party with 2 people on low ac was a bad idea back then.
Thids: Well, it was probably due my lvl 50 around the time, but I couldn't disintegrate shrills, and that really frustrated me. Fire orbs were good for anihilators, and cold for the other stuff, i really held back on evard's due it's lootbreaking properties tough. Having mind blank was good too.
PoM: As it was my first PoM run I was pretty much lost. However having miracle was handy for the boss fight and canceling nasty spawns when transitioning areas. As the death of XXX mobs (with they heavy kb) started appearing I couldn't lay my soups anymore, and as I didn't know enemy elemental weakness, I was pretty much lost. (greater orb of cold would been darn useful for Nycalolths if I knew this back then)
All in all I felt dispatching one target at a time was kinda bizarre, and my rebuke/disintegrate didn't work very well at lower levels. In two weeks I'll reincarnate it back and see what can I do with the build (I end up changing it to a caster cleric, but didn't like it very much).
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Post by simpetar on Sept 9, 2011 14:24:28 GMT
This all sounds to me like frustration from being insufficiently geared and playing in less than optimally level suited areas, rather than a bad build.This build you are posting is interesting (or, if you prefer, "silly"), however as Yojimbo points out, you are limiting yourself very much by not being able to cast lvl 9 wizard spells, when you have high Intelligence. Orbs, soups and mind spells are nowadays what Heralds do and while yours can work well in LLs, later you will suffer by the lack of ED or Weird or Implosion etc. I suggest that you take a look at some proven theurge builds, such as looter (9 clr / 1 rogue / 30 wiz), or divine one (13 wiz / 1 monk / 26 clr), at least to get inspiration. They work, really. So did I ;D My very first character who made it past immortality was 20/20 drow urge, and I was having blast fun with him, especially on Immo run where I kept casting IGMS on balors and was wondering what was killing me. Still keeping him, out of nostalgia Oh and by the way, Stargazers are not just for theurges. They are in some cases worth and viable as, say, middle tier of BUR races, thanks to their unique ability to get Epic Dodge almost for free, if you can manage to squeeze Improved Evasion in the build. You can get unhittable dex rangers (pure), monks, or AAs. (Actually, I even downgraded my AA from Undying into Stargazer with E Dodge and Dev Crit and he kicks butts.) But this does not belong in this thread, sorry. simpetar
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Post by desocupado on Sept 9, 2011 19:01:09 GMT
I think I made this toon just a little before Drow Noble and Herald came out, It seemed very interesting back then as there wasn't a conjuration specialist.
But, yes, sacrificing lvl 9 spells it isn't a good choice. But this school distribution is the best choice if one would be willing to do so.
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Post by simpetar on Sept 9, 2011 21:27:51 GMT
But this school distribution is the best choice if one would be willing to do so. Ummm... sorry, but best choice for what? In what circumstances and runs?
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Post by desocupado on Sept 10, 2011 0:19:17 GMT
But this school distribution is the best choice if one would be willing to do so. Ummm... sorry, but best choice for what? In what circumstances and runs? Well, if you need to compress party, in a 2-3 man run this might fit. It isn't a very serious build, but was a nice idea before Heralds came.
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Post by joe15552 on Dec 3, 2011 16:01:37 GMT
I can think of one good reason to level cleric instead of wizard when your base stat is int as a thurge: Parry
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