Holy Tree Lizard! (Paladin38 Druid 5 Shifter17)

[louisvilleslugger]

I was trying to figure out how to make a melee based shifter.

On a PvP server i used to play on a common build is a Dev-critting kobold-form shifter build that does very well vs. mages (holysword dispels everything on that server) and melee's without spot.

So..this is my attempt at utilizing the epic kobold shifter form here on HG.

I am not sure how to compute shifter AC and assistance on that would be great.

I am also not sure what to use the x2 shifter feats for, but I figured having 20/fire might help a bit with the 25% fire vulnerability.

Let me know what you think!

====================================================



Pro's:
--EPIC KOBOLD FORM: (unlimited per day)
Dex=25, +70 temp HP
HiPS, 5d6 sneak,
Improved Evasion,
freedom of movement,
Invis (Shifter level/conceal)=17%,
sword=+2d4 acid & DC24 poison to whatever weapon you shift with
--Decent Damage (High STR) but poor crits-- only 15-20 (x2) w/ Keen (+8 Divine Damage, 8 Round, 11 times/day)
--60+ Saves
--50% Cold Immune
--Immune: Fear, Disease (paladin), web/grease/entangle (druid)
--Benefits of Fullplate/towershield immunities without the skill penalty (especially for parry)
--Crit Immunity via paladin deathward spell (CL/2 rounds per cast duration)
--20% XP bonus from BC (20%) treant/druid
--Animal Empathy=Oltum for low level


Con's:
--Late Bloomer (gets strong late)
--25% Fire Vulnerable
--Have to Unshift to Rez/buff


Notes: Short term weapon buffs (like holysword/deafening clang) don't end at normal expiration, until unshifting.

==================================================

18(38) Paladin
5 Druid
17 Shifter


Race: Human

Subrace: "Treant" (secret UltraRare; changes Appearance)
- BC: Druid (20%)
- STR +2, DEX -4, CON +3, WIS +5, +5 Spellcraft, +10 animal empathy, free feat: Armor Skin, 25% vulnerable fire, 50% immune cold, increases character size to large, reduced base movement rate - slow, speaks Animal, speaks Sylvan, speaks Treant, is able to change between small and large appearances at will

Starting Stats:
Str 18 (20) --16
Con 11 (14) --3
Dex 8 (4) --0
Wis 11 (16) --3 **nwn engine makes you start with 11 and can't go lower**
Int 14 --6
Cha 10 --2


1.Druid1, feat: Blooded , human: Luck Of Heroes
2.Paladin1
3.Paladin2, feat: WF-Shortsword
4.Paladin3 (STR21)
5.Paladin4
6.Paladin5, Feat: Alertness
7.Paladin6
8.Paladin7 (STR22)
9.Paladin8 , feat: blindfight
10.Paladin9
11.Paladin10
12.Paladin11, feat: Improved Critical-Shortsword (STR23)
13.Paladin12
14.Paladin13,
15.Paladin14, feat: Expertise
16.Paladin15 (STR24)
17.Paladin16
18.Paladin17, feat: Toughness
19.Druid2
20.Paladin18 (STR25)

Pre-Epic BAB= 19
Pre-Epic HP=
Pre-Epic Save= (fort=13+1=14 , reflex=6+1=7 , will=9+1=10 ) -Base & feats
Pre-Epic Skill points = 125

EPIC


21.Druid3, feat: EWF-Shortsword
22.Druid4
23.Druid5
24.Shifter1, feat: Epic Prowess(STR26)
25.Shifter2
26.Shifter3
27.Shifter4, feat: G.STR 1 (STR27)
28.Shifter5 (STR28)
29.Shifter6
30.Shifter7, feat: G. STR 2 (STR29)
31.Shifter8
32.Shifter9, (STR30)
33.Shifter10, feat: G.STR 3 (STR31)
34.Shifter11
35.Shifter12
36.Shifter13, feat: G.STR 4, s.feat: epic energy resist 1-fire?? (STR32,33)
37.Shifter14
38.Shifter15
39.Shifter16, feat: G.STR 5, s.feat: epic energy resist 2-fire?? (STR34)
40.Shifter17 (STR35)


Epic BAB= 29
Epic HP=
Epic Save= (fort=24 , reflex=17 , will=20 )
Epic Skill points = 140

LEGENDARY: Paladin (+1 CHA +1 STR per 5 level)

41.
42., Feat: LSA-Tumble(STR36)
43.
44. (STR37)
45., Feat: LWF-Shortsword [STR38,CHA11]
46. (STR39)
47.
48. , Feat: Legendary Luck(STR40)
49.
50. (STR41) [STR42,CHA12]
51. , Feat: G.STR 6 (STR43)
52. (STR44)
53.
54. , Feat: G.STR 7(STR45,46)
55. [STR47,CHA13]
56. (STR48)
57. , Feat: Divine Might
58. (STR49)
59.
60. , Feat: G.STR 8 (STR50,51) [STR52,CHA14]


Leg. BAB =
Leg. Base save = fort=29+3=32, reflex=22+3=25, will=25+3=28)
Leg. Base HP =
Leg. Skill points= 100



======================================================
Skills (total skill pts=125+140+100=365)

Discipline=63
Tumble=60
Parry=63
Craft armor= 63
Craft Weapon=63
Taunt=50 (alternate option: max animal empathy at level 40 if it's worth it?)



======================================================
Final STR

64 = 18 (base) + 2 (race/subby) + 10 (lvlup) + 10 (LL) + 8 (G.STR) + 4 (LL-PALADIN) + 12 (items)


Final Max. AB

99-100= 29 (L40) + 15 (LBAB) + 1 (WF) + 2 (EWF) + 1 (EP) + 3 (LWF) + 27 (STR64) + 20 (cap via buffs) (1 to 2 craft weapon AB stacks)



Final Max. Saves (CON14(26)=8, DEX4(16)=4 **kobold DEX25(37)=13, WIS16(28)=9 +20 to save throw from items,Paladin CHA14(26)=8)

Fort=32+8+8+20=68
Reflex=25+4+8+20=57, kobold form=66
Will=28+9+8+20=65



Maximum AC? (Low I think??)

--I am Not Sure How to Compute Shifter AC
--Shield AC used to transfer to non-monk shifters. Not sure if it still does?
--Expertise: +5 AC / - 5 AB

SHIFTER ARMOR (WEAR DR% FULLPLATE & TOWERSHIELD, THEN SHIFT???)

[louisvilleslugger]

Any shifter experts out there that can help me figure out if his AC will be playable?

[starlandra]

sorry i have never really touched em... here or elsewhere. looks interesting. prob is as a str tank it does not get crit immune, the sneak attack you can get from items.

so while it looks original, why would one make this over a str ranger with same buffs AND crit immune, or a DD with crit immune, or a wm with crit immune etc etc?

[louisvilleslugger]

It does get crit immune via 'death ward' paladin spell once it hits 40 STR (level 48). Granted, it will only be for 19 rounds (caster/2) per casting, and you'll to unshift to cast.

It will also have decent parry compared to traditional strengthers due to no armor penalty and a decent dex (max of 37 in kobold form), which might make up a little for the lack of a long lasting crit immune.

As for making a ranger? Everyone and their brother now plays them because the fairly recent changes have made too strong in comparison to other melee types. Gotta try new builds!

[starlandra]

hey I was ranger, when ranger wasn't coooooolllll.... and that was just some examples of probably more effective builds with simular effects/class bonuses. 19 rounds is kinda short for the fights you will need it most I think, but none the less... I would love to know the final #'s on this if others with shiter knowledge care to chime in.

[maljin]

The Epic Kobold Commando on the wiki states the ac as following:

10 (base) +13 (dodge) + 7 (dex) + 1 (small size) = 31

If you extend this to reflect the HG changes, you should (I didn't test it) come to:

10 (base) + 20 (dodge) +13 (dex) + 12 (tumble) + 18 (heavy armor ac merging) +16 (highest deflection ac merging) + 2 (craft armor) + 2 (armor skin) + natural ac (from barkskin) = around 100 if I'm not mistaken

Notes: Boots don't merge, so the +7 dodge ac has to come from bardsong, uef, and so on I think. I'm not sure if haste helps so you'd only need to cover 3 with other buffs.

Natural ac from amulets doesn't merge, but

...while shifted, druids and shifters receive 2 + ((Shifter Level / 10) * 2) Natural AC

You'd get about 4 ac from this one or a druid/cleric can provide barkskin and add up to another +17 ac.

I think most shifters currently have much higher ac, but that's because they add their wis bonus to it. Either because of a monk level or because of the shifters own wis ac bonus.

- Shifters with 21 shifter levels now benefit from monk ac WITHOUT needing a monk level, but only while shifted, and at a -3 penalty. Shifters with a monk level do not suffer the -3 ac penalty. Druids still require a monk level to get monk ac while shifted, and do not suffer the -3 ac penalty.

Not having level 21 shifter (and therefor cc shifter) excludes your build from that wis ac. And I don't think you'll get the shield ac bonus to compensate.

If you add another 20-25 ac from wis bonus for most shifters that's what should come out for a "normal" shifter with cc shifter and lots of wisdom. I'll see if I can reproduce this with my level 46 shifter and post his Kobold form ac here.

maljin

[edit]:

I got following results:

10 druid, 29 shifter, 1 monk, 6 LL with a wis mod of +14
immo plate (+15)
Loki's Torment (+16, haste)
nothing else

ac with both items: 99
ac without the cloak: 79

1. haste does count to dodge bonus, as the second ac was 20 and not only 16 lower

2. My calculation for the 99 ac:

10 base + 14 wis + 9 tumble (49 ranks) + 2 armor skin + 15 armor +16 deflection + 4 haste + 7 dex + 13 dodge + 1 craft armor (49+int mod) +8 shifter natural ac [(35/10)*2+2] +1 small size = 99

Even if this is by far not the maximum ac one could get, I think this was enough to show if I forgot anything in the above calculations, but it seems I got everything covered: To be the bearer of bad news: Your Kobold shifter will hardly reach 105 ac even if you can get a monster barkskin and lots of other buffs (girding, bardsong).

[borges]

IMO, your best options for a melee shifter are (i) dragon druid or (ii) some new build that is based on the announced shifter changes (which may well be in the distant future).

Regarding the AC question, here is a screenshot of the AC calculation for my double-demi shifter in kobold form:

As you can see, he gets 30 AC from his Wisdom. As Maljin points out, you'll need to be CC shifter or have a monk level to take advantage of that huge boost. I'm short a few points of Natural AC - you can count on 16 or 17 from a druid. My boots did merge, though it seemed to count only my boots themselves and not the +4 from haste. As I understand it, shield AC on non-monk CC shifters no longer merges at all; you get the WIS-3 instead.

So that makes life tough for a paladin-CC shifter. There are some newer items that pave the way for more melee-oriented shifter builds. Those Uroboros gloves, for example, that give you full LBAB in dragon form. Worth checking out.

[louisvilleslugger]

I was hoping the AC would reach the same level as a normal str tank, but no such luck

Back to the drawing board!

[StrykerOfChaos]

Hmm...what kind of str tank? my DD maxes out at 134 with gird I believe. My Demi RDD would have 135 with gird...but asmo arti gives him base 135.

My barb (with shield) will have somewhere in that range...
My DEX dual wield SD does just fine with 130 ac, 132 with gird.
Just some examples of what ACs I play with to compare with what you may want to look for.

[Mortis]

My shifter (whom I love to play) is tagged to Phleg currently.

I had some fun getting him there and learned a lot along the way…
1. The only castable spells worth casting are those you can cast from a shifted form.
Your spell slots from gear will auto-wipe once you shift.

2. Your armor class is directly related to your wisdom modifier.
If you were to go strength based for instance… poor ac.

3. Buffs applied to a form’s weapon are lost on downshift. (need to affirm this)
I have been buffed in undead form and do not recall the weapon buff remaining after downshift.


The idea is awesome. My overall feelings on the topic/build are one of uncertain debate. I think the build would be a blast to play up to level 45. You cannot cast your paladin buffs on yourself shifted and would lose any spells granted from slots the second you assumed any shifted form. Your AC would only be substantial if you completely shifted your attribute focus, at which your AB and damage output would suffer horribly.

I would wait for shifter changes. Great idea,
~Mortis Corpus

[Acaos]

Jul 23, 2008 11:26:27 GMT Mortis said:

3. Buffs applied to a form’s weapon are lost on downshift. (need to affirm this)
I have been buffed in undead form and do not recall the weapon buff remaining after downshift.

This is correct, but if you buff your weapon before you shift, it will remain when you upshift and downshift.

Acaos