Well open subby has less DC. We can assume that a player with yuan-ti will also lack the charisma artifact, making DC 3 points lower than an BUR (Radiance) with Charisma artifact. 3 DC is really a lot.
Upgrading from yuan-ti to Rakshasa is easy when near 60. So that's +1 DC with no change to the build (other than higher will and SR).
Post by CataclysmicDeath on Mar 5, 2013 15:15:16 GMT
Why would you assume a player with Yuan Ti lacks CHA Arti? Absolutely no reason that player cannot go to Elysium and win one or trade for one.
At the end of the day it boils down to this, min/max all you want but the more you talk about the importance of new players upgrading to Secret/UR/BUR Subs the more importance you assign these subs and the more pressure you place on new players to obtain them and upgrade as quickly as possible. This might be all well and good for you when you party up with them knowing they have those higher ranking subs used on the build they bring but the more pressure you place on a new player to upgrade the more likely it is that they will get frustrated quicker and leave.
In my opinion most new players nowadays upgrade far too quickly anyway, often ending up with 2 or 3 Demi wins without really knowing the hells. I personally miss the days of running through Hells with with the likes of Mino's, Yuan Ti's, Dopplegangers, Thri-Kreen's, Treants, etc. and watching how well the people using those toons do. I can still remember the first time I did Tia with a guy who had a DwD Tank and the best gear he had was Immo Armour. Believe it or not he didn't die once and he was always at the front and Hells were a lot harder then than they are now.
Also just a quick point to note, the majority of these old builds, only really need one or two small changes to bring them up to speed, taken as they are most of them would still work to a degree, certainly they'd still be useful.
Take this build for example, if I was going to build it, I'd drop discipline and max tumble and swap out a few spells, nothing more and you have a perfectly useable caster capable of being a good addition to any Hells/Abyss party. Heck it'd even be great in Ely/Abo.
And seriously with the addition of Level 70 now, that 3 DC difference isn't so much an issue for Hells/Abyss.
While there are plenty of ways to succeed in pre-LL levels with a sorc, one spell that always comes in handy that isn't listed on many builds is IGMS (Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, lvl 6). I recommend to any new player following a sorcerer build to take Ethereal Visage, Circle of Death, and IGMS for level 6 spells during character levels 1-40.
The reason it generally isn't mentioned is because in Legendary areas IGMS is not very useful, whereas in pre-legendary areas it easily destroys most single target mobs (bosses).
Much of the derail went off to keeping an Open sub vs upgrading to a higher tier which is irrelevant to the power structure and improvements to an Open sub build.
I am terrible person with spell selection, I really don't play casters, but I do believe you can do a lot of different things with casters you just need to have a complimentary array of spell schools to have a nice selection of spells to suit as many different occasions as possible. Obviously older builds will more often get a little behind in optimal spell choices as new spells are released and new areas added to explore. Generally even with an outdated spell book you can manage to still do respectable contributions to a new area.
What if we combined our efforts to make a "redux" build that uses this build as a template and we can update spell selection?
I stopped bothering to post Open Sub Builds since I'm too noob for my builds to be taken seriously, and also in the past the forum was moderated to a high standard of "this build comes from a respected vet that passes all the tests"
I'm not sure about nowadays, but
Like we discussed a page or 2 ago I'd really like to see some life breathed back into that forum and also some renewed interest in "re-making" some outdated builds so that they can be helpful to new players without forcing them to do a bunch of research to adapt them to the current mod
Post by CataclysmicDeath on Mar 5, 2013 21:54:32 GMT
The only reason I got involved in this thread was to point out 1 thing. With the way the game is at present, spell selections aren't an issue in respect that it is so easy to change spells.
Making a wrong spell choice isn't going to break a build, well not until level 80, because until then, as a Sorc and Bard you can change your spells at every level up, via the level up process pre 41 and at the spell pedestal from level 40 onwards, so all this build really needs to bring it inline with the mod as it stands currently is an updated list of spells.
From what I can see however, all the spells it has will serve it well enough in end game areas. It all depends really on what you wanna do with the build.
To be honest I personally think it would serve new players far better if some one were to post a few different spell selections in a new thread.
Ie: Spell Selection List - Damage Sorc (This should be a list of spells aimed at maximizing a Sorcs damage output)
Spell Selection List - Instakill Sorc (Spell Selection maximizing ways to insta kill or kill as quickly as possible)
Spell Selection List - Utility Sorc (Spell Selection list which is primarily aimed at disabling mobs in some way)
Spell Selection List - Universal Sorc (Spell Selection aimed at ensuring a Sorc has a good selection of spells to do all 3 of the above, damage, Instakill and disable)
Most will want the damage or Instakill or some combo of those of course but I think it's important to give the choice. It would be far easier to update these lists than keep updating numerous builds who's only issue may be a lack of an up to date spell selection.
Might also be worth doing same thing for some of the quasi classes like Pariah, Herald, BFM/DSM.
Mord-Abyss To dispell non-breachable buffs. But you could use the rod/scroll indeed. (I'm just not a fan of consumables)
I've started the wiki page Sorcerer Spell Selection Guide (Well if someone is using Yuan-Ti I assume they should focus their resources on getting a better subrace and they don't have access to even Rakshasa or UR subraces - Getting a Cha arty is really unlikely before a So-So Bur, any UR with Charisma bonus or even Rakshasa)