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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Mar 6, 2013 12:16:42 GMT
Good point Deso,
I completely forgot the Counterspell Aspect, Mord makes Mages actually useful on the boss fight on one run I can mention as well as being a damn fine idea in Aboleths, man would hate to do that run without at least one, preferably 2 casters that can counter Wierds or at the least 1 Mage with Mord Spell and a Construct Shifter.
For anyone wanting to take their mages through Aboleths I would have to recomend Mord as a spell for that reason alone.
Cata
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Post by desocupado on Mar 6, 2013 14:22:22 GMT
Well it's also good to have counter Rona's boss, for a at least 3 mini bosses at abyss. And off course, to go in a run without a Druid.
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Post by chirality on Mar 6, 2013 19:15:57 GMT
That's very true, I did forget about that ><
Counterspell is even less overall utility (gamewide) than other specialties like Banish, but should definitely not be forgotten due to the (I think) commonly held notion that it's "necessary" for Abo, edit and yes abo bosses which are similar
Hmm Rona boss eh
I'll take your word for it
edit: want to be clear that it is wrong of me to discount mords like I did, I was wrong to say it's useless
BUT much like the earlier arguments with other spells, the point is for a new player they should not be taking mords just in case they happen to go on Abo run or fight sibriex or harthoon
Like cata said there's no reason that a yaun ti sorc CAN'T do these runs
But they really shouldn't be trying to or expecting to
And it seems that there's already so much information for a new player to digest, it's just confusing to be trying to prepare a sorc for runs that are not meant to be played by a newbie
There's just such a high learning curve for endgame content that my feeling is newbies on these runs are likely getting dragged, and unless the party is going very slow and taking extreme care to explain everything they do, most of it goes over a noob's head
much like rushing through demi
I'm just saying that yes I'm 100% wrong and noobish to make a grandiose claim like "mords is not good for sorc"
But I think it's important to provide information in bite size that steps up as a player gets more familiar with the game
I've heard many many players both ingame and in forums display a feeling of being overwhelmed when they hear so much conflicting information and try to make a universal build that can do anything
especially for sorc, we all know that most people have one sorc for most runs and then a 2nd sorc for a run like Abo or Abyss, because the spells, tactics necessary for hells don't translate well into Abo or Ely
And I said this in a pretty mean and sarcastic manner to Cata, I apologize for that, but the point is a player reading yaun ti sorc build should not be expecting to counterspell savant aboleths or deal with fighting Solar
They need to be focused on grinding LLs for loot and xp, and building a strong foundation in hells for which they can truly bring something to the table later on
Then by the time they have this foundation they can start thinking about running Ely or Abo, probably with a different toon or reinc the old one if they're done with hells
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Mar 6, 2013 19:54:23 GMT
Actually I'd recommend newer mage players grind Rona.
Here's my reasoning.....
It gives a good first taster of a Hell like run with regards to high SR, Ability Checks, Immunes, a boss with unique abilities and set don't do and must do tactics to win.
This makes it a great introduction run to high end run teamwork and tactics.
Also the mobs are repetitive so it's a very easy run to learn without the worry of hell pens.
Not to mention BUR Loot drops there and it's good XP.
It's a run that imo bridges the gap a little between LL's and End Game level runs
Cata
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Post by Yojimbo on Mar 6, 2013 20:13:46 GMT
I will also add that Rona set loot is very underrated in that most of it only requires L50 to use. I really wish I knew this earlier and took instead of letting so much of that gear get massed in the past but I never read that closely to notice and just assumed it was run tagged like most all other set loot.
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Mar 6, 2013 20:19:52 GMT
Hehe if u need any of it lemme know, I've got tons of Rona Set loot from when used to solo the place alot with my Dexers. And yes alot of it is very underated, I use some if it on one or two of my Demi toons even now if memory serves.
Cata
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Post by chirality on Mar 6, 2013 22:10:11 GMT
Well Rona is easy to farm and the level 50 set gear which doesn't require tag is certainly very nice
It's just the boss fight that pretty much "requires" a very certain party makeup
I'd have no problem advising a new player to check out rona for the reasons Cata mentions
It's easy to cheese but hard to tank which should be a great learning experience
Ely and Abo though, not so much, like I said they're really likely to just be getting dragged, after all these runs are basically the "EEs" of bygone era, they're designed to keep the vets who already mastered the other content happy and challenged
I certainly don't have much more than very tiny experience in Ely and zero in Abo so I can't say but I think new players are better off learning hells mobs
For this reason I would be afraid of new players visiting XR areas after 1x demi cycle drag but that's neither here nor there
Even with Abyss Ely Abo I think hells/demi still remains the overall best "bang for the buck" in terms of loot and rewards averaged together especially for new players
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Mar 6, 2013 23:06:48 GMT
I dunno, I doubt very much a Caster player would ever be able to get simply dragged through an Ely or Abo Run. Even if all they did was cast Wierd and Greater Ruins in Ely and Counter Spell with Mords and Ruin in Abo they'd still be contributing a huge deal to the party, ask any tank that's been dom'd by those Ely Birds or any player who's been Insta'd by Aboleths in um Aboleths lol. People ony really get dragged through end game runs if they want to be and the party lets them, the people I run with tend to not be that nice heh.
We don't mind new players and will go out of our way to help em, so long as they at least try. Granted these lower tier subrace builds wont be as good in these areas as higher tier subrace builds but I guarantee you they will work well enough to get the job done as long as they player understands they are gunna have to work harder for it.
I agree tho, Hells/Abyss is prolly easier for newer players, Hell's certainly.
As for Rona, Dexers tank quite well there, as long as u can cover the immunes and remember to restore after every fight, oh and FoM is a must you are set to go. Str Tanks with lower AC can have a harder time of it, but overall I think Tanks get it much easier in Rona than casters do, just my personal opinion. And while for HC Rona, there may be a certain party make up required, as long as you got a class than can go ranged and you got some one who knows the run, you are pretty much sorted in a normal Rona. All you really need for a guaranteed Rona win in Normal mode is a Shifter, Something that can counter and a decent tank or two and anything else is just gravy. Heck with the right items you don't even need the Counterspeller.
However that is all rather off topic, if you are going to Rona unless you want to sit there on the last map twiddling your thumbs then make sure you have the mord spell. Wierds I think and Cold/Acid/Sonic damage Spells also Reverse Gravity might be useful, not tried that there yet though, hmm Rona anyone? Asuming you can beat mobs SR.
Cata
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Post by chirality on Mar 7, 2013 1:21:07 GMT
As for Rona, Dexers tank quite well there, as long as u can cover the immunes and remember to restore after every fight, oh and FoM is a must you are set to go. Right...you need FoM which means ranger/cleric to buff you or augged gear which is certainly easy to get nowadays although I wouldn't assume it's a given for every player MB or stun imm is also required Fear is also needed once you hit 3rd map The elec inflicts are very rough and without a dedicated cleric a tank is spending a lot of time drinking pots/using pearls if they want to survive long (unless you're DSM obviously) Once you hit Lashanka and Klashda it becomes worse, more MB needed due to frequent spamming of stun special as well as the elec dmg which heals nearby pharlans too There is also acid inflict from Halave which can stuck up quick Once you start hitting Sephae you need mords as well as massive pos to survive EQ, and the healing becomes a lot worse with their spell spam Given all these special immunes required as well as levi which of course is a given once you leave treehouse, it can be pretty rough to tank is all I'm saying, especially for new player without nice gear, or good sized party with cores to help make up for lack of it It's just hard to fit all this into your kit unless you have good gear + winged race Like I said it's easy to cheese but hard to tank esp for "undergeared" tanks without levi race And while for HC Rona, there may be a certain party make up required, as long as you got a class than can go ranged and you got some one who knows the run, you are pretty much sorted in a normal Rona. All you really need for a guaranteed Rona win in Normal mode is a Shifter, Something that can counter and a decent tank or two and anything else is just gravy. Heck with the right items you don't even need the Counterspeller. Actually I don't say anything is required for HC Rona, other than the obvious for the boss fight which is DoM, I'm sure it's possible to win this fight without DoM but clearly it is out of the league for a new player with open sub race Zen ranger makes it a lot easier The reason I put "required" in quotes is just because this is the common accepted "default" for Rona, zen + DoM, I assure you there's many ways of doing any run that defy the common accepted "necessities" but that's not helping a new player Also like I said farming the run is a WHOLE different game from winning the boss fight Shifter is really nice for cheesing sephae and kobold traps cheese every spawn although it's rather slow and boring Due to the 2 spawn cap it's both a blessing and a curse As for counterspelling, I have no idea, which is why I told Deso I'd take his word for it, I don't see what good this really does unless you already lack a Zen to pull and CS sephae for the boss fight, by the same token you could theoretically have a cleric counterspelling plodes with their own but that's again kind of missing the point Everything except minis can be grabbed, nearly everything can be ploded or drowned, this makes it extremely easy for duo druid + ploder to make short work assuming they're powerful enough DC to land it, NB nerf means SRs are slightly more problematic but not too bad However that is all rather off topic, if you are going to Rona unless you want to sit there on the last map twiddling your thumbs then make sure you have the mord spell. Wierds I think and Cold/Acid/Sonic damage Spells also Reverse Gravity might be useful, not tried that there yet though, hmm Rona anyone? Asuming you can beat mobs SR. Cata I'm not sure what's off topic about discussing this run, it came up and this thread is derailed past the point of recognition If you really want more details I could provide closer analysis of the varying SRs, damage types and insta imms for different mobs There unfortunately is no real universal dmg type that hits everything well, even different pharlan mobs can differ greatly in dmg types, for instance cold vs fire, sonic tends to hit very well on lots Bludg is the closest to universal type, RG works very well (assuming you can beat SRs like you said) Evards of course and there's even more cheese that i won't get into Weirds is not very useful, death has a couple targets, such as Halave which doesn't enjoy very high fort save but does have high SR SRs vary from mob to mob from 80 up to 89 iirc, some of the non-pharlan mobs should not be discounted due to very high SRs as well Claps and RG are overall the best for universal aoe dmg spells, drown/plode obviously best overall for universal insta Weird may land on an animal or 2 like death although I can't say for certainty, can't remember off the top of my head There is quite some cheese options, all I'm saying is that tank without great gear/levi sub is at an extreme disadvantage Again it's easy to farm with cheese but the boss fight is pretty rough To emphasize again I never said "HC rona" requires anything, it's just common knowledge that the boss fight is pretty rough without DoM and zen makes it a lot easier, shifter also certainly helps a lot Any ranger or druid is at an advantage due to One With The Land, also a toon that can find the secret rest spot gives a huge advantage
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Mar 7, 2013 6:22:13 GMT
Meh I meant off topic only in that it was veering even more away from caster towards other classes, was a not very successful attempt to steady it back lol.
Like any run after immo, lack of gear is gunna be problematic. It shouldn't be a huge issue however, even without lev ring there are other options, time spent levelling and building cash in Ele Plains and Feywilds will provide any player the answer to lack of FoM/Lev and an alternative to Levitation items.
The reason we are talking about Mord for Counterspelling is more to do with Sephae EQ spamming than Plodes. Plodes imm. Is relatively easy to obtain in comparison to eq imm. Since any spell can be countered with Mord it also helps counter the Elec spells the Sephae cast at themselves for healing.
For newer players I really wouldn't recommend this run as one they solo but a group of 5 plus players with at least 1 who knows the run should have little difficulty with it.
I only mentioned the HC/Normal mode cause I've done Rona, solo and in groups with a varying mix of new and old players countless times and have a total of 2 wipes, I know this particular run backwards and what u can n can't get away with when you don't have to worry about death meaning bye bye toons. Where as undoubtedly HC is somewhat more careful since a carefully constructed party could mean the difference between mourning your loss or cheering the bosses loss.
As for One With Land you can rest in the map so that advantage isn't that big
Cata
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Post by chirality on Mar 7, 2013 7:54:02 GMT
Well the subject of mords as counterspell came up when Deso mentioned it for the boss fight
Specifically the boss casts plodes so I thought that's what he was talking about counterspelling
I assumed if he was talking about countering EQ he would not have specified the boss fight since there are sephae elsewhere on the run (admittedly quite large spawn at boss though, but as I will address further on, I don't see one mage countering one sephae EQ as making any difference if your party is attempting to fight lots of sephae at once, ok that's one EQ/round neutralized and many more still damaging)
yes you can rest on the maps but there's a chance of spawn and for a mage resting and becoming buffless this is basically instant death if you get a rest spawn on top of you
I consider free rest a huge advantage as resting on the ground rather than ring results in slowing down the run and having to kill zero xp spawns, also possibility of fuguing which isn't ideal even in normal mode
I always avoid fighting rest spawns if possible especially with mobs that are extremely dangerous to buffless mages, even lacking neg imm will result in Otoe tearing you apart with remarkable alacrity, to not even touch other mobs which are painful due to stun or entangle with no buff to give imm (obviously a toon with Str arti doesn't have to worry about getting stunned)
the HC party thing, I tried explaining it already, I've never spent much if any time there in a party larger than 2 or 3 people so it's not about careful party makeup it's about knowing what you can get away with, like you said, regardless the point remains that having DoM mage, zen makes the run a lot easier, I can't imagine trying that boss fight with no DoM, but I guess i'll take your word for it if you say you've done it, zen is obviously not required either but again makes it a hell of a lot easier, again shifter helps too, druid for NB/drown, ploder for GR/plode, bard to help drown/plode land easier, and other instas as well for those who know which to use and what to use them on, toon having RD to cure boss disease helps too, all these cores sure makes it a lot easier, like any run but I'm not saying it's necessary, I've never enjoyed such a party myself in Rona so that's just my guess, it seems logical but I certainly have never relied on it myself
In fact there have been a couple HC rona tries that I wasn't present for which ended up wiping with a larger party and "better" composition than more successful efforts with a party of me + one other player
So I'm not sure about HC needing more toons or more cores, my experience proves otherwise, it's not REQUIRED!!!!!! it's just "required", the point is it just makes it easier just like it makes any run easier, after all obviously you don't need a full party of cores for Hells but then it's also referred to as "required" or at any rate people are afraid to try without since the risk of not winning tends to be higher and nobody wants to waste their time doing a run just to fail due to good party support
I don't consider the massive sephae boss spawn spamming massive amounts of EQ to be problematic if you have a zen to deal with them, or at least proper pulling tactics, I guess if you don't or you can't otherwise pull them effectively (doesn't require a zen but it definitely is a lot easier safer and faster for the puller to instakill them) then yes you're dealing with a lot of EQs but in that case one single mage countering one sephae out of a spawn of 20 or more doesn't seem to make any difference at all, again that's why I assumed Deso referred to countering the boss's plodes
as for countering the elec spells that sephae cast this is likewise a nonissue to me, either you're using effective tactics and cheese to ensure that it's not a problem in the first place, or you're not and one mage countering one spell isn't going to make much difference at all
exploiting the sephae AI is the easiest way to prevent them from healing everything
Also the Klashda similarly use aoe elec nuke which heals but that can't be countered so, again I don't see the point, either you are dealing with it effectively from the start or you're not, I can't picture one sorc spending the whole run spamming mords counterspell to counter one spell at a time as being better than other options
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Mar 7, 2013 8:28:41 GMT
Well the subject of mords as counterspell came up when Deso mentioned it for the boss fight Specifically the boss casts plodes so I thought that's what he was talking about counterspelling I assumed if he was talking about countering EQ he would not have specified the boss fight since there are sephae elsewhere on the run (admittedly quite large spawn at boss though, but as I will address further on, I don't see one mage countering one sephae EQ as making any difference if your party is attempting to fight lots of sephae at once, ok that's one EQ/round neutralized and many more still damaging) Um never said you had to fight every Sephae in the boss spawn at once, you do em one at a time, hence the need for only one Counterspelling Caster This is what I meant by tactics yes you can rest on the maps but there's a chance of spawn and for a mage resting and becoming buffless this is basically instant death if you get a rest spawn on top of you I consider free rest a huge advantage as resting on the ground rather than ring results in slowing down the run and having to kill zero xp spawns, also possibility of fuguing which isn't ideal even in normal mode I always avoid fighting rest spawns if possible especially with mobs that are extremely dangerous to buffless mages, even lacking neg imm will result in Otoe tearing you apart with remarkable alacrity, to not even touch other mobs which are painful due to stun or entangle with no buff to give imm (obviously a toon with Str arti doesn't have to worry about getting stunned) Quite true, and this is the main difference between normal play and HC, ok even with Normal play you can miss the tag if you fugue, but since it isn't required for the gear that isn't such a big deal, HC however it requires more careful game play and slight shift of tactics to avoid that risk since fugue means no more toon. And as long as you remember to rest one at a time the chance of a rest spawn is minimal. the HC party thing, I tried explaining it already, I've never spent much if any time there in a party larger than 2 or 3 people so it's not about careful party makeup it's about knowing what you can get away with, like you said, regardless the point remains that having DoM mage, zen makes the run a lot easier, I can't imagine trying that boss fight with no DoM, but I guess i'll take your word for it if you say you've done it, zen is obviously not required either but again makes it a hell of a lot easier, again shifter helps too, druid for NB/drown, ploder for GR/plode, bard to help drown/plode land easier, and other instas as well for those who know which to use and what to use them on, toon having RD to cure boss disease helps too, all these cores sure makes it a lot easier, like any run but I'm not saying it's necessary, I've never enjoyed such a party myself in Rona so that's just my guess, it seems logical but I certainly have never relied on it myself In fact there have been a couple HC rona tries that I wasn't present for which ended up wiping with a larger party and "better" composition than more successful efforts with a party of me + one other player So I'm not sure about HC needing more toons or more cores, my experience proves otherwise, it's not REQUIRED!!!!!! it's just "required", the point is it just makes it easier just like it makes any run easier, after all obviously you don't need a full party of cores for Hells but then it's also referred to as "required" or at any rate people are afraid to try without since the risk of not winning tends to be higher and nobody wants to waste their time doing a run just to fail due to good party support Fair enough, I missread and assumed you meant you did it in HC with full party, kudo's to ya if you can do it without. I don't consider the massive sephae boss spawn spamming massive amounts of EQ to be problematic if you have a zen to deal with them, or at least proper pulling tactics, I guess if you don't or you can't otherwise pull them effectively (doesn't require a zen but it definitely is a lot easier safer and faster for the puller to instakill them) then yes you're dealing with a lot of EQs but in that case one single mage countering one sephae out of a spawn of 20 or more doesn't seem to make any difference at all, again that's why I assumed Deso referred to countering the boss's plodes as for countering the elec spells that sephae cast this is likewise a nonissue to me, either you're using effective tactics and cheese to ensure that it's not a problem in the first place, or you're not and one mage countering one spell isn't going to make much difference at all exploiting the sephae AI is the easiest way to prevent them from healing everything Lets not exploit the Sephae AE, it tends to lead to fixes ;p Plus it's cheesey, I only like edible cheese Again my reference to the healing, it can become a problem if like you say, you don't deal with em effectively, the counterspelling is just one way to effectively deal with it. Again I say tactics to the massive Sephae spawn at boss, you aren't always gunna have a ranged insta killer, this is where the Counterspelling comes in. Of course if you are lucky enough to have a Zen Ranger, problem solved. Also the Klashda similarly use aoe elec nuke which heals but that can't be countered so, again I don't see the point, either you are dealing with it effectively from the start or you're not, I can't picture one sorc spending the whole run spamming mords counterspell to counter one spell at a time as being better than other options Yes the Klashda use AOE Elec attack to heal themselves, but it isn't just healing, it is temp HP, if you can cut off one supply of temp HP the means they are easier to kill, trust me, once they get enough temp HP you can hack at em all day long, you aint killing em Ok the mords thing, we seem to be stuck on this, a mage isn't expected to spend the whole run mording n counterspelling, with the exception of the last map they have better things to do, it's purely for the last map, where magic does not work and a caster has one of 2 option without or between DoM uses, sit twiddling thumbs or be useful counterspelling. This allows the mage (if you are pulling Sephae 1 by one) to ensure Sephae can't EQ, plode don't happen and no one gets grabbed, their AOE Storm thingy (can never remember it's freaking name lol) doesn't get cast, no Ball Lightning Spells get thrown to heal the mobs yer meeleeing, it just makes that last map soo much easier, necessary, lilke a lot of things no, easier and quicker oh hell yes. Btw, Shifters are awesome in Rona, not just for the damage they can deal, but they can insta kill practically every non Pharlan critter that spawns there, meaning Snakes aren't such a pain in the rear if you get your FoM Morded. The amount of kills and damage they can rack up if they know what they are doing is phenomenal. Cata
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Post by desocupado on Mar 7, 2013 12:07:43 GMT
Regardless of Rona (Where Shifter's Manticore, Basilisk, Banshee, Risen Lord, Drow, Kobold, Kenku and Silver Dragon rock), let's focus in Hells. Since most open subrace players lack consumables (no demishop access), I'd really advise at least Greater Spell Breach (8) or Mord (9) to deal with Rak's spell mantles in Hells. I'm not 100% Sure if greater spell breach (8) can be used to counterspell tough it can't only mord (9) and dispell (1,2,3) Give a try at editing the Sorcerer_Spell_Selection_Guide
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Mar 7, 2013 12:49:57 GMT
Will take a look at it later today when I get home from work
Cata
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