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Post by jonuhey on Jun 22, 2009 15:31:29 GMT
Why this option isnt even mentioned anywhere?? Pros: You get all cleric benefits once you hit 60 (GR, heal, foundation of stone, uef, rez, quick restoration, death ward, fom, etc) With GR in particular, your DC will be better (still not good tho), and your ab, immunities wont be lowered. Preservation belt is an option, but still too expensive to get around 5 of them. Further your skill wont be lowered, meaning more damage/healing.
Cons: Loses +0,5 damage, which is basicaly -31,75 damage on a succesful save (double if the creature fails it) in a creature with no immunity to that damage. Loses Positive damage
Anyway, its just an idea. My threader is 39 and is needing immo. Loving it so far, even soloed glith, that I never was able to do with any of my other non immo toons, and i cant use URs yet =P.
Tell me if I forgot something in the cons/pros list... I probably did.
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Post by Torin on Jun 22, 2009 17:22:45 GMT
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Post by jonuhey on Jun 22, 2009 17:36:01 GMT
I already read that, and it was with that page in mind that I posted this, cuz it lists common/useful(?)/tested(?) builds, but the 21/19 isnt between them. Currently most threaders are 20/20 dex-hybrids. I heard about one that is wisdom based and thats it. Never saw a 24/16 or a 30/10 ever. jonuhey
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Post by Yojimbo on Jun 22, 2009 17:42:48 GMT
21/19 doesn't look to benifit over say 24/16, which is also not listed, so maybe go 24/16 get just a few extra caster levels and likely some more spells. I guess you could give up more damage and keep 1 damage type with 26/14 and get your epics then you got 30/10.
*note: all combinations are Cleric/WM
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Post by jonuhey on Jun 22, 2009 17:48:40 GMT
21/19 doesn't look to benifit over say 24/16, which is also not listed, so maybe go 24/16 get just a few extra caster levels and likely some more spells. I guess you could give up more damage and keep 1 damage type with 26/14 and get your epics then you got 30/10. *note: all combinations are Cleric/WM Theres one little difference. 24/16 has 1 less ab than 21/19, and thats it I guess.
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Post by Yomi on Jun 22, 2009 18:00:00 GMT
A big benefit of 25 cleric levels is that you get a cleric epic and a bit more healing on your threading. However you lose a feat unless you push it to 26. Acaos wrote up a 30/10 LT build: The Path Undying, but it's pretty old and I haven't seen it played in quite a while. Stonewarrior and Gandoron both have played wisdom threaders. Gandoron went 26/14 and focused on the extra cleric abilities (miracles, GR, healing, etc.) while Stone went 20/20 since he was mainly trying to push his DC up to where things would fail the save enough to boost damage. GR is a big benefit, but don't expect that it'll make much difference to things failing the DC save unless you're a wisdom threader. The heal skill will be boosted which will help some, yes. Note that you'll need to fit in Extend Spell also.
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Post by jonuhey on Jun 22, 2009 18:19:37 GMT
A big benefit of 25 cleric levels is that you get a cleric epic and a bit more healing on your threading. However you lose a feat unless you push it to 26. I dont have many feats to get epic spells, would have only miracle from tome or else mish would get mad (see rants =P). Would love to fit Iof and miracle, but that would be too much expensive imo. I want to build a uni tank using koly... wisdom seems kewl, but uni is better imo. Yep, it wont help the DC, will still be fishing for 1 most of the time. But the AB and immunity is what I want to keep, the KB with GR is much more easier to manage. A problem I'll have is seeing when the useful spells are being consumed, like paying attention to when my extended GRs are being consumed and skip that level of spells using damX. I'll give it a try. If Im luck, I'll be running hells with him soon =) (Im lazy to level immos up to 55) Thx for the input you ppl Jonuhey
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Post by Yomi on Jun 22, 2009 18:54:15 GMT
The wiki lists the 3 class combinations because " The three below seem most advantageous in terms of bonus feats given, cleric abilities, and threading abilities." Certainly other combinations are possible, and maybe what seemed best a year ago when that was written might not be best any more -- CL41 keeps getting more benefits, and is worth a lot more than it used to be before Abos and PoM. There are probably implications in saves and AB, and also hit points. I'm curious as to what effect the LBAB bonus that Divine power gives at CL41 has, since AB on a unitank threader could always use help. CL/WM Mix | Dam Types | Dam Mult | Heal Mult | Feat Loss? | WM AB | CL 41 spells* | CL Epics | CL 45 Div Power** | 20/20 | sl/ma/ne/po | 4.0 | 3.0 | | 0 | | | | 21/19 | sl/ma/ne | 3.5 | 3.0 | | 0 | Y | 22/18 | sl/ma/ne | 3.5 | 3.0 | Y | -1 | Y | 23/17 | sl/ma/ne | 3.5 | 3.0 | | -1 | Y | 24/16 | sl/ma/ne | 3.5 | 3.0 | | -1 | Y | 25/15 | sl/ma | 3.0 | 3.5 | Y | -2 | Y | Y | Y | 26/14 | sl/ma | 3.0 | 3.5 | | -2 | Y | Y | Y | 27/13 | sl | 3.0 | 3.5 | | -2 | Y | Y | Y | 28/12 | sl | 3.0 | 3.5 | Y | -3 | Y | Y | Y | 29/11 | sl | 3.0 | 3.5 | | -3 | Y | Y | Y | 30/10 | sl | 3.0 | 4.0 | | -3 | Y | Y | Y |
*: At CL41 you get: double UEF duration, Greater Restore works (only 4 rounds), Resurrection grants temp hp and works on disintegrated people, Divine Power grants LBAB, Prayer and Doom are better though still can't penetrate SR, Heal and Remove Disease and Remove Curse work in new areas. **: AT CL45 divine power grants an extra attack. Just looking at the above, my take is: - 20/20. Probably most damage, most flexible in types. - 21/19. Loses only Pos damage, loses a little damage multiplier, can hope to make some of that back in the Hells with Greater Restore. Gives CL41 spells. - 26/14. Loses Pos and Neg, lose even more damage multiplier. Lose some WM AB. A little more healing. Cleric Epics, Divine Power extra attack. - 30/10. Only Slashing available. Even more healing, and quite a few more cleric levels. Spell Penetration is still too low to be useful even if you spent the feats.
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Post by StrykerOfChaos on Jun 22, 2009 19:02:07 GMT
Just a side note: You can't rez people with CL 41 Rez anymore...to prevent the Greater Rods from rezzing....It mights be CL 45 or 51 now.
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Post by Yomi on Jun 22, 2009 19:27:00 GMT
Good catch, Stryker. I think Abos is 51 now so the only way it'd work with a LT is a 30/10 that used something to raise effective caster level. There are still some level 41's in the lower areas though.
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Post by Yomi on Jun 22, 2009 19:30:26 GMT
I added it to the wiki as it looks like a good choice. I'm am wondering how the Divine Power LBAB will effect actual AB. Keeping yourself under GR will raise your AB and Heal skill, both of which will raise damage output. However you'll really want the Extend feat or your GR's will only last 4 rounds (vs. 10 for a typical 59/1 or 58/1/1 cleric casting Extended GR). Also that'll eat into your level 9 spells, which means some less damage. Of course a little less than "OMG that's a lot of damage!" is still "that's a lot of damage!" And as you pointed out the kickback will be easier, and I've never yet played a tank that didn't enjoy getting GR. Wisdom threader is interesting, but I think unitank is still the best overall one. LT's are fun, and I love having one in the party on most runs.
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Post by StrykerOfChaos on Jun 22, 2009 19:49:04 GMT
Pit of Moliation isn't 41 either, my level 46 cleric with 1pal/1monk couldn't do it.
The 25/15 is the one I've always been most interested in, for the GR, epics, and now that you've mentioned Div Power....Im going to look at it.
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Post by jonuhey on Jun 22, 2009 20:16:52 GMT
That table is really nice ^^
My build got extend spell and improved critical sickle too (13-20 x3) tho I wont take lsf enchantment for +14 gmw and the saves are a bit low 59/60/60 but I guess I'll use a save arti to fix that, as I have it for so long, and no build seems to need it, this one will need I guess. Wanted to use str, but it is so damn hard to get one, and I have already 2 toons waiting for one...
I can use a blind fight pandect if needed too, I have one getting dust in the bank.
Anyway, will try to play him. If it works I'll post the build someday =)
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Post by stonewarrior on Jun 30, 2009 20:52:21 GMT
A few random thoughts...
If you want a higher DC go the Widsom route...but stay at 20 / 20. This is of course a personal preference as I prefered my Wisdom Threader to Gandorn's (then again that could just be a playstyle preference). The main thing to worry about if you go Wisdom is knowing not only your threading radius...but the KD radius on mobs and the UUU radius of your Bard. Mine got KD quite a bit when I didn't pay attention.
If you are going for pure damage output then I would suggest the 20 / 20 uni version. You will rarely be KD and your will put out the most damage via the threading / sickle combonation (in most instances anyway).
If you are going to be playing the Threader in Aboleth's then the Positive damage is quite useful. When I played mine there I usually alternated b/t Slashing and Positive depending on the mob.
Finally, I do not really see the point of a Threader with epics. Your damage will be quite a bit lower and for what? The ability to cast Miracle (which I HATED when threading), IoF or another epic? Threaders are all about damage output and to a lesser degree healing party members. As for the "benefits" you would get at 60...not your job. Leave that to real clerics. If you want to do those things play a caster cleric.
Peace
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