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Post by Senaattori on Nov 9, 2007 16:14:42 GMT
-Shifters with 21 shifter levels now benefit from monk ac WITHOUT needing a monk level, but only while shifted, and at a -3 penalty. Shifters with a monk level do not suffer the -3 ac penalty. -Druids and shifters gain +1 to attack while shifted for every 4 legendary levels they have. -Druids and shifters with the Wildshape feat may gain Creature Weapon Specialization as a Legendary Feat. Those with CWS may then gain Epic Creature Weapon Specialization. -Druids and shifters benefit from Unarmed focuses while shifted. -Many of the abilities of the various forms have been modified. See the book in the item shop for details. -Shifters and shifted druids can use their powers to give their forms the ability to breath water (meaning you will not drown while shifted). Water breathing magic is stll needed when not shifted. -Shifters and shifted druids can use their powers to give their forms the ability to walk on quicksand and other unsteady surfaces (meaning you will not sink into quicksand). Levitation magic is stll needed when not shifted. - Melee Weapon properties now carry over to the unarmed forms' claws and bite attacks. - Other "stackable" item properties, like ability bonuses, skill bonuses and saving throw bonuses, now correctly add up in shifted form. This means if you have a ring that gives +2 strength, and a ring with +3 strength, and you shift into a drow warrior, you get +5 strength in shifted form, where you used to get only +3. (the highest) - AC bonuses still do NOT carry over, EXCEPT for armor enhancement bonus (as usual) AND the highest deflection bonus equipped. NON-Monk shifters also carry over shield enhancement bonus. -NOTE: Druids and shifters are bugged so that if they die when shifted, they will not benefit from any items equipped until they shift and unshift again. There is a fix in place for shifters, but druids must enable it manually. Use the '!opt shifterfix' SIMtools command to toggle this feature.
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Post by ilovedietpepsi on Nov 20, 2007 13:29:18 GMT
An idea of Treant Shifter, not sure if it is worth it. I got doppel, treant and anarch so i was pondering which could make the best shifter. Yes Anarch is better but not by much. I already made a shifter (currently L60 tagged at Malbolge), was wondering how to improve it. Treant came into my mind. Benefits: 1. Treant is large, that means you can use large weapon in one hand, so you can use that lowbie (L36) halberd with 90% fire immunity. Together with Wings of Storm shield, a min set item (leather or ammy etc) and deafening greaves you can give yourself solid elemental immunities apart from rings. Drawbacks: 2. the draw back, the biggest drawback is the 25% fire vulnerability, with the Shifter immunity bug (which according to DM prolly never gonna be fixed) you can only get 75% fire immunity top outside hell, now with the worst hell penalty your fire immunity will be 10% shifted no matter what, 85% with shunt. (compare to 35% and 110% for a non-treant) fire can really hurt you bad, especially if suffer from immunity decreasing attacks
Any thoughts?
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Post by dodrudon on Nov 20, 2007 16:57:08 GMT
If the immunity bug isn't going to be fixed, you should go Anarch. Otherwise, you'll have a max of 75% fire on Treant when shifted.
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Post by Yomi on Nov 21, 2007 7:40:16 GMT
A belated comment that I think Cath has some great points on the idea of both taking 30 shifter levels and taking improved expertise. For most shifter activities IE has no penalty -- it seems to not effect manticore spiking, golem rock throwing, dragon breath, and of course medusa gaze. It's really quite nice. That combined with the new semi-barkskin have given my rebuilt shifter some pretty crazy AC numbers. With IE on (since other than melee with dragon form there really is no reason not to have it on): Form | Unbuffed AC | Barkskin AC | Unshifted | 133 | 133 | Manticore | 134 | 142 | Medusa | 132 | 141 | Stone Golem | 132 | 139 | Dragon | 147 | 151 |
Your mileage may vary some with equipment and stats. Girding helps some also. A level 60 shifter made with 30 shifter levels also gets 50% conceal from kobold which isn't super high but it's high enough to be worth using. Also keep in mind that even with that AC if something KD's you it's going to hurt a lot.
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Post by dodrudon on Nov 21, 2007 8:35:07 GMT
How're you getting 133 AC unshifted?!
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Post by Yomi on Nov 21, 2007 9:23:50 GMT
How're you getting 133 AC unshifted?! Remember Improved Expertise used with all of those! Wisdom 66, Dex 24, Swamp Devil Hide, Pentavite Shield, +17 deflection cloak, +16 amulet, +16 boots -- no Asmo gear, Craft Armor skill 69 before song/penalty. Penumbrium Plate raises the AC by 1 when unshifted, but lowers it by 1 or more when shifted vs. the SDH. IMO it's not fair to add improved expertise to tank AC's unless that truly is your normal way of fighting. It's great to be able to add it to tank some nasty boss, but in general most tanks don't walk around using it (I hope not for the sake of their hitting stuff). But for a standard shifter it doesn't seem to really have a downside unless you're doing dragon form and intending to actually hit stuff. Most of the time in Hells when the shifter goes to dragon form they're not interested in damage so much as being a tank to let the party get things back together or they want breath damage (note I'm not talking about druid dragon tanks, but this build, where GMW+song will still leave you barely over 80 AB in red dragon form based on combat log). With girding, bard song, and barkskin, it seems my shifter has an AC of 128 or 138 with Improved Expertise. Shifted with IE, that's 147 in Manticore and Medusa and 156 in dragon form. Crazy stuff. Edit: Unlike a previous poster who indicated his shifter tanked multiple PF's without any issue, my shifter regularly got the stuffing beaten out of her pretty much constantly if the big nasties decided they didn't like her (admittedly my shifter never wore a BUR until after completing Nessus). I really much prefer the AC high enough to not get multiple crits every round.
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Post by cathedralmaster on Nov 21, 2007 18:49:10 GMT
Though I haven't seen anyone do it, I'm fairly sure you can break 160 AC if you tweaked the build to max it. I suspect you could probably hit a higher ac with this than any other build in the mod.
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Post by lala on Nov 22, 2007 1:06:13 GMT
Word of warning though, Medusa gaze leaves you flat footed so expertise really is not going to help you much for this shape. I think this applies for all the gaze attacks.
Cheers Lala
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Post by Cimion on Nov 22, 2007 17:08:03 GMT
I am wondering if taking a monk level is worth it anymore so I came up with a alternate build to take a pally level, so the only think left out is evasion and 2 attacks. I don't care about ab or # of attacks since the only thing shifters can hit is thin air anyway.
With monk lvl
evasion unarmed attack focus lots of attacks expertise (although most will prolly have IE before lvl 39-40) Skill dump for discipline and maybe tumble if it LSA isn't taken.
on the other hand if you take a Paladin lvl:
+ from cha on saves. possible +6, mine would be a +5 Profecient with all weapons and armor Discipline skill dump Better ac +14 from shield then -3 from non-monk, netting +11 or more for better shields. easily breaking 160.
Evasion is pretty nice for a shifter in tia and other LL areas, but other than that I don't see a lot of benefit in taking a monk lvl over a pal-cheese lvl.
This is how Tyranthaxis's build would look modified to take pal instead of monk and Rilminai instead of Anarch.
LVL 1 Blooded Snake Blood
Pre-Epic feats: Expertise Imp Expertise Alertness Unarmed Focus Imp Crit Unarmed Toughness
Epic feats: Armor Skin Shape X4 Great Wis X8
LL Feats LSA Tumble LSA Parry Grt Wis 9-10 Epic reflex
Start Race 40 60 Str 8 8 8 Dex 12 12 12 Con 16 20 20 Wis 16 22 40 52 Int 14 14 14 Cha 8 8 8
Saves
40 60 EQ Fort 34 41 61 Refelx 27 38 58 in any form this should be above 60 Will 40 47 67
So maybe I am insane but the new updates seem like they are encouraging non-monk shifters.
Be as brutal as you want to, I have thick skin. It just seems like this build would get better ac and since a shifters offense is only limited by the # of shifter/druid lvls defense should be the main concern of shifter builds.
Cimion
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Post by cathedralmaster on Nov 22, 2007 20:42:19 GMT
Better ac +14 from shield then -3 from non-monk, netting +11 or more for better shields. easily breaking 160. You get the wisdom ac with a shield while shifted so there is no difference between having a shield as a pally and having a shield as a monk except that pallys get -3 wisdom ac. I use the thid pentavite on mine.
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Post by Cimion on Nov 22, 2007 22:52:24 GMT
Maybe I am misunderstanding this but the way I read it non-monk shifters get wis ac-3 AND shield ac. Shifters with monk ONLY get monk ac, so non-monk shifters should have a higher ac.
Cimion
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Post by bhao on Nov 23, 2007 14:19:48 GMT
Maybe I am misunderstanding this but the way I read it non-monk shifters get wis ac-3 AND shield ac. Shifters with monk ONLY get monk ac, so non-monk shifters should have a higher ac. they used to get only shield ac, now they get wis-3 ac instead of shield ac.
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Post by Cimion on Nov 23, 2007 14:34:51 GMT
ok just to clarify...while shifted non-monk shifters get:armor modifier, deflection, shield, wis-3 monk splash shifters get:armor modifier, highest deflection, wis ac
is this correct?
Cimion
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Post by borges on Nov 23, 2007 14:53:32 GMT
Read Bhao's post again: non-monk get the adjusted WIS instead of shield AC, not in addition to it. Actually, to be exact, they get the higher of WIS-3 and Shield AC.
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Post by Cimion on Nov 23, 2007 15:10:51 GMT
I read it a few times...I was trying to reconcile what Bhao said vs this statement.
If Bhao says shield ac or wis-3 for non-monk shifters then monk is the only way to go.
Thanks
Cimion
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