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Post by quaduce on Oct 13, 2008 15:30:19 GMT
Hey! im new to the server,So hello! Thought id post my build idea of what i plan on playing, I'll take any advise to better changes, because im really not sure what ill need to survive on here or what skills and such are usefull and wich ones i dont need. Race: Human Alignment: Lawful Evil Max. Hit Points: 440 Ability Stats: STR: 11 DEX: 17 (32) CON: 14 WIS: 10 INT: 14 CHA: 8 01: Monk(1) Toughness, dodge, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist} 02: Monk(2) {Deflect Arrows} 03: Fighter(1) weapon finesse, weapon focus: kama 04: Monk(3) DEX+1 05: Rogue(1) 06: Monk(4) Two weapon fighting 07: Monk(5) 08: Fighter(2) DEX+1, Ambidextairty 09: Monk(6) Improved two-weapon fighting, {Knockdown, Improved Knockdown} 10 Monk(7) 11 Monk(8) 12 Rogue(2): DEX+1, improved critical: kama 13 Monk(9): {Improved Evasion} 14 Rogue(3): {Uncanny Dodge I} 15 Monk(10): Iron Will 16 Fighter(3): DEX+1 17 Rogue(4) 18 Monk(11): blind fight 19 Fighter(4): weapon specialization: kama 20 Monk(12): DEX+1 21 Fighter(5): Epic Weapon Focus: kama 22 Rogue(5) 23 Rogue(6) 24 Monk(13): DEX+1, Great Dexterity I 25 Monk(14) 26 Monk(15) 27 Fighter(6): Great Dexterity II, Epic Weapon Specialization: kama 28 Rogue(7): DEX+1 29 Fighter(7) 30 Rogue(8): Great Dexterity III 31 Monk(16) 32 Fighter(8): DEX+1, epic prowess 33 Fighter(9): Great Dexterity IV 34 Monk(17) 35 Rogue(9) 36 Monk(18): DEX+1, Great Dexterity V 37 Rogue(10): defensive roll 38 Monk(19) 39 Monk(20): epic dodge 40 Fighter(10): DEX+1, armor skin Stats (unbuffed at lvl 40) Fort 24 REflex 34 Will 22 AC: 35 SR:30 BAB: 26, AB +39 (dual wielding normal kamas) I plan on maxing out my Tumble, Discipline, Hide, Move Silently, and UMD, But ill have 150ish (in total i can max out 7 skills) points left and i dunno what would be best really... Crafting? Traps/open lock? Listen/Spot? Im wondering if my AB and saves will be too low and if a dex kama monk will be gimped for damage later on.
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Post by chirikov on Oct 13, 2008 16:01:05 GMT
for skills, you want concentration at least. listen would help with beating concealment. dont bother with move silently, it currently doesnt do anything worthwhile. put extra points into craft armor/weapon
damage should be on par or slightly more than a normal dex tank, assuming you have the ab to hit things. youll need to find some kamas though, which might take a while if youre working brand new
saves could use a slight boost. generally, you want them at 29 at level 40 without buffs so that at 60 with buffs itd be 60+. in your case, the strong + hardened soul combo would cover it i think
you also have not factored legendary levels into your build yet. thats 7 more feats and 10 more stat points, amongst other things
the only thing this build will have difficulty with is ac as far as i can tell. as a dexer, it wont be so bad, but you wont be able to equip a shield since youre dual wielding. you get some bonuses for the monk levels (about 4 i think, not including wis bonus) but thats not quite the same as the 16 or so ac you get from a shield. if you can hit the 130s (which may be possible, i havent run the numbers) you should be fine i believe
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Post by the1kobra on Oct 13, 2008 16:41:46 GMT
I have to say, I actually like the concept of the build, dual kamas with some mean sneak attacks. Dual wielding kamas Firstly, in your initial stat spread, your base wisdom is 10. For a monk, I highly recommend that this is put to 14. Wisdom increases your AC, and it is vital to keep this high if you want to survive on the front lines without armor or a shield. It also has the added bonus of raising your will saves. I would reccomend changing starting stats to: 10/16/14/14/14/8 The odd strength point doesn't give you much save a small boost in carrying capacity. It does lower your dexterity a smidgen, but I think it will even out later on. Second thing, this is somewhat minor, but I would change the pre-epic level progression to 16/4 monk/fighter instead of 12/4/4 monk/fighter/rogue. Doing this will change your pre-epic saves from: 13/13/10, to: 14/11/11. Thats +1 fort and will for 2 reflex, however, since you are dexterity based, your reflex saves are going to be high enough to make every save in the game. The extra fort and will will help you more. Feats: In your pre-epic selections: The only things I have noticed is that you take dodge on level 1, and iron will on level 15. Those aren't bad selections, but I think there are some improvements you can make here. Firstly, at level one, (and you can only take this at level one), there is a feat "Strong soul" which gives you a +1 to fortitude and a +1 to will. This might not sound great, but when you hit legendary levels, it will allow you to take a feat "Legendary Hardened Soul" that gives you +5 to fortitude and will. That combined with constitution, wisdom, and the high saves that monks get, should satisfy all of your saving throw needs throughout the game. Whether you want to sub out dodge or iron will is a personal preference, though I'm not really a fan of dodge (given how the dodge bonus AC cap works). Ok, for skills, you certainly have some good choices there, though I would try to fit in craft weapon and craft armor. 40 points into craft armor/weapon will raise your AC/AB respectively by 1 point per 40 points, to a maximum of 3 at 120. Listen is also a very nice choice, since it helps you against concealed enemies. (The formula on how it does is in the documentation). I wouldn't say move silently is very useful though, past the early game anyways. You haven't factored in legendary levels into your build, that may be a long way off, though it's usually a good idea to map that out beforehand. Pretty much, they'll all count as 'monk' levels for determining skills and HP. (Not extra class abilities). You'll get 10 more stat points (presumably putting them into dexterity), and 7 more feats. (You may wish to read up on the LL system, 2 feats I would highly recommend taking here are legendary weapon focus (+3 AB), and Legendary hardened soul (+5 fortitude and will). Lastly, and this is only a recommendation, but I would actually shift the level structure around a bit to try and fit more rogue levels... and more sneak attack dice to boot. 21/6/13 Monk/Fighter/Rogue will give you 2d6 harder hitting sneaks, a few more skills, and a tiny bit more speed at the expense of a feat. It's something to consider I suppose.
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Post by simpetar on Oct 13, 2008 17:05:11 GMT
For skills, parry is worth consideration as well, since it will reduce damage you take from critical hits. Saves could indeed be little improved a bit, maybe you could drop Dodge at 1st level and take Strong Soul. AB should be fine with little more dexterity in legendary levels (and you will get insane number of attacks), AC will hurt a little. Maybe you could drop 1 point from strength and dexterity on character creation, and boost wisdom to 14 and go with even number of Great Dexterity feats.
cheers simpetar
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Post by chirikov on Oct 13, 2008 17:34:10 GMT
Lastly, and this is only a recommendation, but I would actually shift the level structure around a bit to try and fit more rogue levels... and more sneak attack dice to boot. 21/6/13 Monk/Fighter/Rogue will give you 2d6 harder hitting sneaks, a few more skills, and a tiny bit more speed at the expense of a feat. It's something to consider I suppose. 21/6/13 would get an xp penalty. its not so bad since this is human based, but 20% is still noticeable i assume that is why the pre-epic split is 12/4/4 as well
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Post by johannhowitzer on Oct 13, 2008 22:06:32 GMT
I never ever worry about xp penalty in any build. Why? Would you worry about some feat that's useful only in one lowbie area and then not again once you hit 60? However long it takes to get there, your build should be built to be the best it can be at 60.
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Post by quaduce on Oct 14, 2008 6:05:49 GMT
Hey guys thanks for all the pointers! Yeah while testing my build iv concluded my saves are much too low...I was considering taking 40monk/6ftr/13rogue for more skillpoints and extra sneak attack but i think i have more than enough skillpoints as it is, and this build is pretty tight on feats, and i dont want to be too dependant on my sneak attacks or have an xp penalty really either I havnt factored in 40-60 lvls since those are custom to the server and i honestly dont have any idea how those work...
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Post by chirikov on Oct 14, 2008 6:32:19 GMT
if you have more than enough skill points, just push some int into wis or something. the only way to have 'too many' skill points is to be an int based caster
calculating the legendary levels is fairly simple. you get 7 feats, 10 stat points, and 5 to all saves. skill points is whatever you would get normally with that class, with the same maximum (total level + 3). its not all that different from a normal levelup in epic levels really, the only notable exception being the lack of class bonus feats
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Post by wnxhalfwingseen on Oct 22, 2008 3:46:35 GMT
a (kind of) minor point, we have subraces here, many of which are very useful to you, dualing kama's like this i would reccomend Kobold, not only for my plan on appeasement to kobra (who loves kobolds) but the dex bonus and ab/ac bonus helps offset dualing kama's, how to do this is as follows select human and click subrace and type "Humanoid - Kobold" without the quotes, and you will upon creation gain +2 dexterity and lose 2 strength also you will look all koboldy. you get all of humans benefits (except Favored class which is rogue anyway for kobold) and the big benefits of halfling as well ( size and dex)
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Post by BigStick on Nov 4, 2008 23:11:14 GMT
Bugbear is another subrace choice to consider, though the -3 INT is rough. With favored classes of fighter and rogue, there'd be no XP penalty. The +2 to STR, DEX and CON are nice and this build would hardly notice the -3 CHA.
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Post by quaduce on Nov 20, 2008 23:00:58 GMT
I am just got to the mid 30's with this build, his name is Grandmaster Dum Gui So far the build is great, alot of fun to play. Has two major weaknessess that im trying to figure out how to better. Mainly the low AB and low damage. Anny suggestions on improving this? Items? Maybe using fists instead?
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Post by StrykerOfChaos on Nov 20, 2008 23:12:05 GMT
Fists wont' affect your AB, but Fist monks do get bonus damage with Control Class Monk in Legendary Levels (40+) so that would help out your damage output.
What's your AB right now? I honestly can't tell you what high AB is for level 35 (for a point of reference) I do know that most fist monks get 90-95AB at level 60 with full buffs.
I'll run through the test chamber really quick...see what your AB is gonna be.
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Post by StrykerOfChaos on Nov 20, 2008 23:57:59 GMT
EDIT: This is my 1000th postHere is what I came up with for you: Im not trying to steal your build, this is just my best way of getting my point across. I took the same class combination and I didn't include a subrace, and I still used kama but here are some of the main differences: 1) It can use kamas and unarmed strike effectively, taking all of the weapon feats for both. Some areas of the later game are better with slashing, and some bludgeoning. This lets you effectively use both. 2) It's saves are still pretty stellar, but I dropped iron will, and I also took out Dodge. 3) I took Blinding Speed instead of Defensive Roll....because I can. Base Human: No Subrace Ability Points Str 10 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 8 Monk 1: Blind Fight, Strong Soul Monk 2: Fighter 3: Weapon Finesse, WF Unarmed Strike Monk 4: +1 Dexterity Monk 5: Monk 6: Toughness Rogue 7: Rogue 8: Fighter 9: WF Kama, Ambidexterity Monk 10: Monk 11: Monk 12: +1 Dexterity, Imp Crit US Monk 13: Rogue 14: Monk 15: Two Wpn Fighting Monk: 16: Fighter 17: Rogue 18: Improved Two Weapon Fighting Monk 19: Monk 20: Fighter 21: EWF US, EWF Kama Fighter 22: Fighter 23: Epic Prowess Fighter 24: Great Dexterity I Fighter 25: Armor Skin Fighter 26: Fighter 27: Great Dexterity II, Imp Crit Kama Rogue 28 Rogue 29: Rogue 30: Great Dexterity III Rogue 31: Blinding Speed ( ) Monk 32 Monk 33: Great Dex IV Monk 34 Monk 35 Monk 36: Great Dex V Monk 37 Monk 38 Monk 39: Great Dexterity VI LL Feats: 42: LWF US 45: LWF Kama 48: Leg. Hardened Soul 51: Great Dex VII 54: Great Dev VIII 57: Great Dex IX 60: Great Dex X Skills: Craft Armor Craft Weapon Tumble Discipline Listen Concentration (This doesn't sound useful, but there are some concentration checks for disarm in later parts of the game) Parry AB Calc: Unarmed Strike 40 (Base AB at Level 40) 12 (LBAB at 60) 5 (10 Ability Points in LL towards Dexterity) 2 (Great Dex Feats in LL) 6 (+12 Dexterity Bonus in Gear) 20 (Weapon Enhancement + Song) 3 LWF 88 AB unarmed. If you dual kamas, subtract 2 but dont forget you get AB bonuses on kamas from craft weapon skill. It's CW/40 = AB bonus. A CW of 80 gets you the same AB as unarmed strike.-------------------------- Option Open Subraces------------------ -Dwarf --Derrzagon +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha Blind Fight A good option if you want to go dwarf. Dwarves get +2 Con, -2Cha at creation. The Int and Dex boosts help you raise your Con if you want HP or they could help you balance out the loss of Wis the subrace provides or even raise your AB/AC. You dont lose any feats because Derrzagon provides Blind Fight. -Human --Bugbear +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -3 Int, -3 Cha You won't miss the charisma, and you can lower your str to 8 and get your int back up 2 points. If you do drop a skill you can drop concentration and craft weapon and go 50/50 on each. (You really only need about 30 points in concentration imo, and song will put you over 40 on CW for +1AB) You can also raise your dex a couple points.
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Post by the1kobra on Nov 21, 2008 2:27:16 GMT
Not taking defensive roll will prevent you from taking epic dodge, which is pretty much most of the point of taking the rogue levels, along with the sneaks. I would also take foci with a ranged weapon rather than with unarmed strikes, probably a light crossbow for the 7 attacks. I also don't see the epic specialization feats in either, with 10 attacks a round that can add up quickly. With any feats left over, I would either pad out saves, or grab some ranged weapon feats, crossbows are nice for dexers, since they can get 7 attacks a round.
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Post by StrykerOfChaos on Nov 21, 2008 3:21:48 GMT
I was thinking the unarmed strikes is nice because CC Monks get a bonus to fist damage..and he would be able to use bludeon or slash dmg depending on his preference.
The saves are fine. At 40 I had 25/29/25 and that's without Leg. Hardened Soul.
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