The McFlurry Monk (31Mo/4BG/5HS)

[crimsonbinome22]

The McFlurry Monk



Unhappy with the Mcflurry Monk of old (I've quoted it into my post a few down for reference purposes), I built a new version with the most suitable subrace I had: Pharlan. It uses the Harper Scout toast dispensor to maintain the same number of attacks as the old version and is Str focused for better damage and also for resisting some of the many checks in the 9 Hells. I ended up reincarnating an old Fist monk into the same build, finding it works just as well for a Dex focused toon.

There are tradeoffs between the Strength and Dexterity based versions. The Strength version has very precarious AC, 121 in BURs, but obviously has far greater damage output and limited Critical Hit Immunity. Unless you have access to a strongheart and good resist gear the Dex version is a far more stable option with 134 AC in BURs. Both versions end up with a respectable off stat, making them fairly impervious to weak checks (advespas for Str version, gelugons for Dex) and with the help of the outer UUU ring are immune to Pitfiend/Malebranche KD checks. I actually tilted the Str version towards a couple of extra points in it's main stat. This is partly because when I reincarnated into the Str version I was 1x demi, and a little extra AB helps compensate for demi pens. That little bit extra damage on each of your attacks doesn't hurt either. I moved 2 points out of Constitution and into Intelligence for the Str Version so I would have enough points to get 35 in both Craft Weapon and Craft Armour and still have some left over for concentration. The Dex variant can easily do without the extra point of AC so 60 HP is more worthwhile imo.

The build works with both nunchucks (any monk weapon really) or fists. Again, each has it's pros and cons. With fists you can get 10 attacks a round, as opposed to 9 with nunchucks. Fists also gain +17 extra bludgeoning damage on each hit as well a permanent +16 enchantment on the gloves. Nunchucks on the other hand can be buffed with Darkfire, Flame Weapon, Deafening Clang and Magic Weapon. Together they add to more than the bonus fist damage but many creatures will be completely immune to some of these buffs, whereas the fist bonus works on absolutely everything. Going club focused does allow you to use Goads or Kama's if you want, which can be useful for runs such as Elysium and Aboleths where bludgeoning does not reign supreme as it does in the Hells. Another interesting feature of the Nunchuck version is you actually get 10 or so uses of Divine Might each rest. It only adds 7 divine damage to your attacks for 7 rounds, but when used before spawn points where you know a Pit Fiend or Malebranche are going to spawn, it is still very useful. Personally I like both Nunchucks and fists and so have one of each.

A note or two about building this. Start off your alignment as Lawful Evil, so you can level through Monk and Blackguard without a problem. At 34 you need to switch to evil so have a chat with the Ascension Priest. If you become immortal before taking your fifth HS level you can go kills some woodland animals to become evil again.

Race: "Pharlan" (secret Beyond UltraRare; adds wings and tail)
- FCs: Cleric, Paladin
- STR +4, WIS +4, CHA +4, free feats: Great Strength I, Great Strength II, Divine Might, able to walk on quicksand, base SR 15 +1/lvl

Dexterity Based	Strength Based
Stats	Stats
Base: 14 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 12 Wis, 12 Int, 8 Cha Racial: 20 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Wis, 12 Int, 12 Cha At 60: 22 Str, 46 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Wis, 12 Int, 12 Cha Items: 34 Str, 58 Dex, 26 Con, 28 Wis, 24 Int, 24 Cha	Base: 14 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 12 Wis, 14 Int, 8 Cha Racial: 20 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 16 Wis, 14 Int, 12 Cha 60: 48 Str, 20 Dex, 12 Con, 16 Wis, 14 Int, 12 Cha Items: 60 Str, 32 Dex, 24 Con, 28 Wis, 26 Int, 24 Cha
AB & AC	AB & AC
AB: 92 + 1 (CW) AC: 132 + 2 (Gird)	AB: 93 + 1 (CW) AC: 119 + 3 (Strongheart) + 2 (Gird) + 1 (CW)
Skills	Skills
Tumble (60), UMD (60), Discipline (63), Listen (63), Parry (63), Craft Weapon (30), Concentration (Remainders)	Tumble (60), UMD (60), Discipline (63), Listen (63), Parry (63), Craft Weapon (35), Craft Armour (35), Concentration (20)
Saves	Saves
F: 64, R: 77, W: 64	F: 65, R: 64, W: 64

Level	Class	Dex Based: Stat	Dex Based: Feat	Str Based: Stat	Str Based: Feat
1	Monk		Toughness		Toughness
2	Monk
3	Monk		Weapon Focus		Weapon Focus
4	Monk	+1 Dex		+1 Str
5	Monk
6	Monk		Weapon Finesse		Alertness
7	Monk
8	Monk	+1 Dex		+1 Str
9	Monk		Alertness		Iron Will
10	Monk
11	Monk
12	Monk	+1 Dex	Iron Will	+1 Str	Improved Critical
13	Monk
14	Monk
15	Monk		Improved Critical		Great Fortitude
16	Monk	+1 Dex		+1 Str
17	Blackguard
18	Blackguard		Blindfight		Blindfight
19	Blackguard
20	Blackguard	+1 Dex		+1 Str
21	Monk		Epic Weapon Focus		Epic Weapon Focus
22	Monk
23	Monk
24	Monk	+1 Dex	Epic Prowess	+1 Str	Epic Prowess
25	Monk
26	Monk
27	Monk		G Dex I		G Str III
28	Monk	+1 Dex		+1 Str
29	Monk		BF: Armour Skin		BF: Armour Skin
30	Monk		G Dex II		G Str IV
31	Monk
32	Monk	+1 Dex		+1 Str
33	Monk		G Dex III		G Str V
34	Monk		BF: Epic Energy Resist		BF: Epic Energy Resist
35	Harper		BF: ESF: Listen		BF: ESF Listen
36	Harper	+1 Dex	G Dex IV	+1 Str	G Str VI
37	Harper
38	Harper
39	Harper		G Dex V, BF: G Dex VI		G Dex I, G Dex II
40	Monk	+1 Dex		+1 Str
41	Monk
42	Monk	+1 Dex	Legendary Weapon Focus	+1 Str	Legendary Weapon Focus
43	Monk
44	Monk	+1 Dex		+1 Str
45	Monk		G Dex VII		G Str VII
46	Monk	+1 Dex		+1 Str
47	Monk
48	Monk	+1 Dex	G Dex VIII	+1 Str	G Str VIII
49	Monk
50	Monk	+1 Dex		+1 Str
51	Monk		G Dex IX		G Str IX
52	Monk	+1 Dex		+1 Str
53	Monk
54	Monk	+1 Dex	G Dex X	+1 Str	G Str X
55	Monk
56	Monk	+1 Dex		+1 Str
57	Monk		G Str I		G Dex III
58	Monk	+1 Dex		+1 Str
59	Monk
60	Monk	+1 Dex	G Str II	+1 Str	G Dex IV

[StrykerOfChaos]

Big question, why 8 WM levels?

[darthtorin]

Looks nice & fun to play.

Few questions/comments...

- HGwiki lists Nunchaku as a Monk weapon. Is weapon proficiency exotic really needed?
- Expertise is a prereq. for Whirlwind Attack -> they must be switched.
- You take the Rogue level only for UMD…What about taking Paladin level instead? With CHA20 you get a +5 boost to your saves.

[crimsonbinome22]

Jun 8, 2008 13:49:49 GMT StrykerOfChaos said:

Big question, why 8 WM levels?

You mean as opposed to only 7? The extra pre epic WM level nets you +1 BAB, +1 will and fort saves.

Jun 8, 2008 13:55:44 GMT @darthtorin said:

Looks nice & fun to play.

Few questions/comments...

- HGwiki lists Nunchaku as a Monk weapon. Is weapon proficiency exotic really needed?
- Expertise is a prereq. for Whirlwind Attack -> they must be switched.
- You take the Rogue level only for UMD…What about taking Paladin level instead? With CHA20 you get a +5 boost to your saves.

1. Good question. I had a look at kama's and they had exotic or monk weapon proficiency on them, nunchaku's only had exotic so I assumed they required the exotic feat. Can someone confirm if exotic proficiency is required for this?
Edit: I would think the wiki is refering to them being monk weapons as in they work with special monk attack progression and flurry, it would make sense for the kama's big brother to cost an extra feat.
2. Thanks, will fix.
3. Perhaps a save boost would be cool, but in my opinion being able to unstone, clarity, gs, gust, mord and bbod is priceless. The pally saves would allow me to lose one set of saves feats and pick up two extra great dexs, but losing umd ability for 1 AC and 1 AB isn't just isn't worth it imo

[crimsonbinome22]

The old McFlurry Monk, kept here as an eternal reminder to myself to never make a tank with 8 Base strength again.

Jun 8, 2008 13:01:52 GMT crimsonbinome22 said:

Race:
"Half-Kyton" (secret Beyond UltraRare)
- FC: Base Race, Monk
- DEX +4, WIS +4, CON +4, free feat: Improved Spell Resistance 1, free feat: Improved Spell Resistance 2, free feat: Dodge, free feat: Mobility, +8 hide, +8 move silent, +10 tumble, speaks Infernal

Build Notes:
Sorry in advance for the wall of text, I'm not sure why or how I write so much (I certainly cannot write essays that easily or quickly). Before I lose you, comments, tips and feedback are very appreciated.

I really like monks but something about my fisty monk just doesn't satisfy, so i thought i'd change it up a bit. I thought it was a brilliant original idea of my own by putting in a WM level and dualing some nunchaku's but apparently it's been done before, albeit a long time ago as most of those builds are now obsolete according to Build page of HGwiki. This is build is bit of a development on those old builds into something which I think is well suited for tanking and damaging critters in the hells.

Apart from the Increased Multiplier and Ki Critical the WM levels improve BAB quite significantly (this compensates for the great dex feats you lose trying to fit in the two weapon fighting feats, and 4 WM pre reqs you don't already have on HK). The rogue level at 40 is for a UMD dump, nothing of value is really lost by taking it. 30 preepic monk levels is needed so as to not lose 1 extra monk AC, so if you really wanted you could take 30 Monk 8 WM 2 Rogue for an extra skill point or two, lose a round and 1% of your empty body so I don't think it matters.

As far as subs go this won't work properly with much other than BUR subs like Half-Kyton due to annoying WM Prereqs. Half-Kyton has all the right stats and feats though so I think it's a good choice.

I deliberated long and hard over whether to make this a Dual Weapon weilder or not, but i *think* dualing is the way go. If you lose the dualing feats (swap em for great dex's) and equip a torch in your offhand with phys imm on it, AB goes from 93 to 96, and AC from 135 to 136, I think the sacrifice is well worth it in my opinion, by dualling you gain an extra two attacks and look a fair bit cooler in the process. Also you have the option, should you need to, to equip a torch when the going gets tough for extra immunities.

On the dualling route AB ends up quite good, you really really need to be careful around any sort of kickback/splitting monsters though. You'll have 9 attacks a round, 10 if you turn on flurry. And since your using monk AB progression your tenth attack won't be at 50 ab. Attack progression itself is slightly oddball (see below in stats section), something to do with the extra attacks off your second weapon makes ab go higher than what your ab actually is, neat eh? Remember, if you see machines be careful, if you see winds or tears i'd suggest running away. (Minuaros on this character is going to suck a lot of butt).

Defensively I think the build should be alright. 135 AC is fairly decent and should keep you upright most of the time. You have no innate conceal so it'll be an idea to ask the bard/mage/whatever to maintain some form of concealment on you. You do however have two uses of Empty Body each rest that give 71% concealment (I think). These only last 5 minutes each so use them sparingly. Remember also that you have expertise (you have it due to it being a WM pre req) that you can use for an extra 5 AC in a pinch. Saves are all 64+ as well so that's good.

Skills wise, I chose parry for the crit immunity, Discipline for some saves (slagging won't be an issue, robes and nunchakus don't slag, still handy to have though), Listen so more attacks will make it through concealment, Tumble for AC (only need 50 points, get 10 from Half-Kyton), 40 in UMD and 40 for Craft Armour and Craft Weapon each
This build will have 40 UMD, so don't forget to make use of it. Unstone folks, clarity confused peeps, gust save lowering clouds, set a bbod, throw around a mord or two. You'll end up with a few points left over (can't really get rid of them due to WM pre req 13 int) so put them into something of your choice. More for UMD maybe (40 should really be fine), Lore if you intend to bank, taunt or maybe bluff.

Notes on feats: I've left blindfight off the build since I don't think it's *that* important. You have UMD so get someone to make you some Remove Blindness/Deafness rods so you can fix yourself in event you deafened/blinded. At level 34 you'll have a bonus feat but nothing to spend it on due to monk's crappy choice of epic feats. Maybe go epic toughness for 20 extra hp. I thought i'd try epic damage resistance because NWNWiki said it stacked with damage resistance from items, I don't know if it actually works though (I chose cold because I don't like Cania).

Disclaimer: Due to WM prereqs this build is pants to play preepic. You can't even use the weapon your focused in til 18. As such pick up a bow/sling/shruiken (something that uses your dex modifier) until you can actually equip nunchakus.

Ability Scores
Base: 8 Str, 18 Dex, 12 Con, 12 Wis, 14 Int, 8 Cha
Racial: 8 Str, 22 Dex, 16 Con, 16 Wis, 14 Int, 8 Cha
60 Buffed: 20 Str, 58 Dex, 28 Con, 28 Wis, 26 Int, 20 Cha

Stats
AC with BUR gear: 135
AB with +20 weapon: +93/+90/+87/+84/+81/+78/+95/+93/+88 (Without flurry)
Saves: F: 64, R: 77, W: 64
Full HP: 974

Skills:
Parry (63), Discipline (63), Listen (63), Tumble (50), UMD (40), CA/CW (80), Intimidate (8 cross class)

Build Outline
1. Monk: Strong Soul, Luck Of Heroes
2. Monk:
3. Monk: Weapon Focus: Club
4. Monk:
5. Monk:
6. Monk: Spring Attack
7. Monk:
8. Monk: (Put Intimidate up to 4)
9. Monk: Expertise
10. Monk:
11. Monk:
12. Monk: Whirlwind Attack
13. WM:
14. WM:
15. WM: Weapon Finesse
16. WM:
17. WM:
18. WM: Improved Critical (Club)
19. WM:
20. WM:
21. Monk: Ambidexterity
22. Monk:
23. Monk:
24. Monk: Two Weapon Fighting
25. Monk:
26. Monk:
27. Monk: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
28. Monk:
29. Monk:
30. Monk: Epic Prowess
31. Monk:
32. Monk:
33. Monk: Epic Weapon Focus, Bonus Feat: Armour Skin
34. Monk:
35. Monk:
36. Monk: ESF Listen
37. Monk:
38. Monk: Bonus Feat: Epic Tougness/Epic Damage Resistance
39. Monk: Toughness
40. Rogue:
41. Monk:
42. Monk: LWF (Club)
43. Monk:
44. Monk:
45. Monk: Legendary Hardened Soul
46. Monk:
47. Monk:
48. Monk: Legendary Luck
49. Monk:
50. Monk:
51. Monk: Great Dexterity I
52. Monk:
53. Monk:
54. Monk: Great Dexterity II
55. Monk:
56. Monk:
57. Monk: Great Dexterity III
58. Monk:
59. Monk:
60. Monk: Great Dexterity IV


Pros
- High ab, number of attacks and special progression should hopefully make for lots of damage
- UMD ability, able to serve party in a way more than just tankage.
- Respectable AC, has empty body (71% conceal), expertise and ability to switch to a torch when going gets tough.
- WM levels give larger crit range and multiplier on nunchakus.
- Listen skill means more hits are making it through enemy concealment.
- Can't be slagged
- Speedy (this is sometimes a hindrance, if you misclick and run half way across a map spawning etc, mostly i find it handy though)

Cons
- 9-10 attacks a round so potential party killer on kb/splitting monsters.
- Doesn't work very well with other subs.
- No innate conceal
- Don't get +16 AB bonuss that Fist monks get for bypassing damage reduction.

[Yomi]

Jun 8, 2008 13:55:44 GMT @darthtorin said:

- HGwiki lists Nunchaku as a Monk weapon. Is weapon proficiency exotic really needed?

On the Weapons page, the wiki shows Nunchaku as a monk weapon in the Other column, which indicates they get the monk progression (this is explained further in paragraph 8 of the notes). In the Type Column they are listed as Exotic/Monk, just like Kama. They require either exotic or monk proficiency. Hence you do not need the exotic feat since you have a monk level. Perhaps the next enhanced hak will be changed to indicate that in-game.

[crimsonbinome22]

ESF Listen it is. On this build Listen will reach 82 normally, 102 with bard song, 127 if there's someone with maxed C/C around. This means conceal of 50% is reduced from 25% down to 17%. 70% conceal gets reduced from 49% to 40% etc. To work out what listen will be reduced to use the formula below.

Listen
- Increases your chances of hitting concealed enemies. Up to a skill of 60, the enemy concealment drops to (Concealment ** (1 + (Listen skill / 60))). With a skill above 60, the enemy concealment drops to (Concealment ** (2 + ((Listen skill - 60) / 120))).
- A Listen skill of 60 is equivalent to having the Blind-Fight feat in reducing enemy concealment, and skill and feat do not stack. '**' is the exponentiation operator.

[MightyKhan]

Concealment ** (1 + (Listen skill / 60))). With a skill above 60, the enemy concealment drops to (Concealment ** (2 + ((Listen skill - 60) / 120))).

concealment is a number in between 0 and 1, so raising the power will decrease the final result, ie effective concealment.
hmm, i feel like making a graph showing lines of 90%, 60% and 30% base concealment. will make and post it this afternoon.

[crimsonbinome22]

Aye I had the concealment thing all muddled, edited the post above with the misleading query and comment.

I had a graph made on my calculator that showed Conceal vs Effective Conceal a while back, neat way of showing what differing levels of base conceal equate to effectively.


Note: While playing this character you can switch your weapons between both Goads and Nunchakus due to them both being CEP weapons. So you have a wider range of weapons to chose from. I was intending to use nunchucks due to them looking cool and being bludgeoning, but if i end up liking the damage types on goads more i might use them instead. If possible it'd be optimal to get both and switch between them according to which damage types are going to be best on the run your doing.

[Ralkain]

Jun 9, 2008 9:08:33 GMT MightyKhan said:

i feel like making a graph showing lines of 90%, 60% and 30% base concealment. will make and post it this afternoon.

I wrote something to create a listen concealment chart which I posted here a long time ago. Here it is again:

       <----------------   Target Conceal Values   ----------------->

Listen   10%    20%    30%    40%    50%    60%    70%    80%    90%
====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ======
 127    0.28%  1.63%  4.60%  9.59% 16.98% 27.07% 40.15% 56.50% 76.37% 
 120    0.32%  1.79%  4.93% 10.12% 17.68% 27.89% 41.00% 57.24% 76.84% 
 105    0.42%  2.19%  5.73% 11.35% 19.28% 29.72% 42.87% 58.86% 77.86% 
  90    0.56%  2.67%  6.66% 12.72% 21.02% 31.68% 44.82% 60.53% 78.89% 
  75    0.75%  3.27%  7.74% 14.27% 22.93% 33.77% 46.86% 62.24% 79.94% 
====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ======
  60    1.00%  4.00%  9.00% 16.00% 25.00% 36.00% 49.00% 64.00% 81.00% <-- Blind Fight
====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ======
  45    1.78%  5.98% 12.16% 20.12% 29.73% 40.90% 53.57% 67.67% 83.16% 
  30    3.16%  8.94% 16.43% 25.30% 35.36% 46.48% 58.57% 71.55% 85.38% 
  15    5.62% 13.37% 22.20% 31.81% 42.04% 52.81% 64.03% 75.66% 87.66% 
   0   10.00% 20.00% 30.00% 40.00% 50.00% 60.00% 70.00% 80.00% 90.00%

[MightyKhan]

here's my promised graph. i uploaded it to the wiki
www.hgwiki.com/wiki/images/f/fa/Listen_Cconcealment_Graph.jpg

[crimsonbinome22]

An update on this build now that I've played it through the hells a bit (just needs nessus atm).

On the defensive front it is fairly good. With high AC and emergency concealment in the form of Empty Body it is quite survivable and doesn't get hit that often. Conceal isn't even that necessary most of the time either, due to it's short duration I instead find myself wearing breach boots to get more immunities off rings (immunities/resists are fairly important due to the amount of kb you take from 9 attacks a round). The major flaw however is 8 base strength. If something does strength kd, it will knock me down. With a good bard it isn't so much of a problem, but I dislike being so incredibly reliant on someone else.

Offense is similar: okay but nothing superb. It will outdamage most dex tanks and keep pace with some strength tanks, but high damage toons like Dev Crit AA's beat it by a huge margin.

I'm not particularly thrilled with it so I'm tossing around some ideas for reincarnation. Ditching the WM line because I'm beginning to think better crit range on a monk weapon is pointless.
- 30monk/9ranger/1rogue: Could go str or dex based. Either way no WM so some spare feats and could boost other stat to give it some uni tank survivability, plus better damage output (both from str and a little bit off a favoured enemy or two).
- 35monk/4paladin/1rogue: Str based using Pharlan. 7 attacks a round but compensates with str bonus. According to calculations will have same damage output as the old version except less kickback.
- 30monk/9fighter/1rogue: strength based with weap spec, also feats. 9fighter/1pal would save some feats but im obsessed with umd.

Obviously getting rid of rogue levels opens up more (probably better possibilities) like pal/harper or ranger/harper combinations but I hate losing UMD. Reincarnating into a fist monk would probably work (there are plenty of proven fist builds) but I'm unsure of the pro and cons. Gain +20 damage with fists but lose the benefits of FW/DF/DC. Chucks could potentially do a bit more damage but unfortunately flurry still doesn't work with them.

[StrykerOfChaos]

If you manage to fit 5 HS you still get the option for UMD

[crimsonbinome22]

Updated main post with new 31Mo/4BG/5HS build, featuring both Strength and Dexterity variants that can be used with either Fists or Nunchucks depending on your preference.

Thanks to Stryker for pointing out the HS UMD thing.