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Post by chirality on Jun 23, 2015 22:36:57 GMT
That Disint line--that's hilarious.
I've seen that exact same advice worded in the exact same way before, all from players with one thing in common.
Well, anyway if you want to build a toon that's useful only being dragged, then make a toon that can't carry.
Age-old wisdom like this is largely responsible for the contemporary environment of a population that only knows how to get dragged.
There's been exactly 1 player per year for the last 3 years actually graduate from being a nub into learning the endgame.
Will you be that player for 2015? If the answer is "no that sounds like a hard job i dont want it" then make sure you do a great build like, skipping Trans, taking PSF Abj, and I guess LSF Div (that +1 premo soak is soooooooo good). Also, you may want to skip Nec as well in favor of Conj (after all Nec DC is useless and bad, you can make a Nec/Trans mage next time), cuz Conj gives such sweet summons which are really awesome for the parts of the game that you're likely to spend your time in.
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Post by Paradoom on Jun 23, 2015 23:27:35 GMT
So just to get this straight: you say that one dc isn't important and folks should focus on damage. Then you suggest to go with schools that are extremely dependent on exactly the dc like trans. That contradicts itself harshly you know.
And then your suggestion to push 4 schools to LL status and then abjuration to epic, splendid. So no greater ruin which is fine, but u think a beginner will learn better that way if he first has to use energy drains in hope it lands and then try disintegrate. Maybe, maybe not, depends on the person I say. But hey no prob, im sure he has like 40 spell slots as wiz when he starts of anyway so he can mem anything and play out this uber diversity of a wizard just fine.
And despite your sarcasm, skipping necro is a very viable option. It depends though on what you aim to do with your arcane for the most part. If you plan to do aboleths and ely a lot it is a no go ofc and esp. for one that doesn't have several arcanes already also a no no.
But you use even extended on your wiz so why do I even bother lol.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2015 0:07:19 GMT
...and once again a question of how to set up a core with a non-BUR race starts descending into flame. Both of you need to relax, everyone has a different opinion and there are multiple ways to play the same class - ESPECIALLY when the toon is already nerfed by being low level/no demi iterations/non-BUR subrace.
Anyway back on topic, I think one thing that has to be considered is the current state of server activity + stage of the toon's life, ie: WHERE will this toon be played?
Don't forget that later on the toon will be ready to be reinc'd (probably with a BUR-sub and some demi-iterations), so IMO the goal here is NOT to make a toon that can hold it's own in every endgame area of the mod, but to make something that can be effective in 1) legendary level areas, and 2) Hell.
Realistically speaking, these days Abyss/Aboleths/Elysium are run so infrequently that it seems redundant to consider those runs when planning a build, especially when it's likely the toon will be reinc'd before it enters those areas!
That's mostly why I suggested dropping Divination, simply because it's unlikely the toon would get much use out of it prior to reincing. With Transmutation foci, at least they'll have +8 DC to Reverse Gravity spam which equates to a very large damage bonus for boss-fights in Hell, as well as the Epic Wall spell which can be handy in several LL areas.
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Post by xian on Jun 24, 2015 0:13:35 GMT
Umm... would it just be better if I stay away from the wizard class unless I have Genie or Illilid then? Anyone have a spare Genie book they're willing to part with?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2015 0:21:45 GMT
Umm... would it just be better if I stay away from the wizard class unless I have Genie or Illilid then? Anyone have a spare Genie book they're willing to part with? IMO a lot of players exaggerate the power difference between BUR and non-BUR races, personally I think demi-count and Paragon levels are much more important (ie: time spent actually playing the toon). If power is really the number one priority then it makes more sense to just build a Sorcerer instead. It's just an unfortunate reality that all toons are going to be weaker while you level them up, but it's something everyone goes through and it's no reason to skip playing a class you like! If you want to play a Wizard, then play one BUR caster-subraces are worth a lot, getting your hands on a Genie is not that easy. Illithid on the other hand is relatively easy to get (Secret subraces are the least valuable overall).
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Post by chirality on Jun 24, 2015 2:05:19 GMT
Well, the one thing we can prolly agree on is that wizard sucks.
So play one if you want, but if you want to have a more enjoyable experience, make a sorc.
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Post by xian on Jun 24, 2015 7:19:53 GMT
Now that you mention it, I have not actually played a pure sorcerer before. That's something I might have to try. It also looks like I actually have Stargazer as an option. I'm interested in playing a Wizard for the versatility of spells. Why would sorcerers be more powerful? Anyway, I appreciate all the help you guys! Now how would I go about this build with a Stargazer?
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Post by Paradoom on Jun 24, 2015 8:23:36 GMT
@ssj2poliwhirl sorry for the derail, you are right. If you want to make this with stargazer the following things change: Base race: Elf --> means you will loose the bonus feat from level one from being human, so u are one feat down. As Elf you also gain the "able learner" ability, but for this pure wizard it is of no effect. Stats:STR: 8/8 DEX: 16/16 CON: 12/12 INT: 18/22 WIS: 8/12 CHA: 8/8 pre-epic:You gain the divination foci, but loose one feat so that leaves one feat to spend and you have to compensate for the spell penetration. do this: - instead of div foci get spell penetration. - exchange the gsf abjuration for gsp (greater spell penetration) epic:- go as described legendary:- exchange the esp divination for gsf abjuration On a side note:The meta feat extend spell is a convenience feat. I suggest to pick up maximize spell instead. You will need that much more to make your spells as efficient as possible instead of lasting longer. Spellcraft can be left at like 15 points easily. Since you don't grab any bioware epic spells and only need it for counter-spelling this is enough. instead you can put those points in parry to reduce incoming damage from critical hits. And wizards in general are fun and pain at the same time. You can adjust your spells to any run and plan beforehand, but you also have to do this all the time. !sb empty and !sb fill will be one of your most beloved commands. As a general rule: make notes on what spells you need for what on which run. You will sometimes have to change your book even in the middle of a run to adjust for upcoming fights (mostly boss fights though). When you do the run again you will have a good idea what to use and can fine-tune your spell book. For learning the mobs and many different arcane tactics wiz is the first choice. And personally: with my wizard I can solo runs and do tactics that are not possible (or extremely hard) with my sorc. And as for sorcs: they are easy because, they get 50% more bonus spell slots and you focus on much less spells and 1-2 less schools than a wizard does. Meaning they are easier to learn to play efficient within the given set of schools and spells and very liked because of that. And spell-slots will be a nightmare for a novice wizard in the deeper layers of hell. You will have to (and I strongly recommend to) run avernus (the first layer) a lot at first to get a decent gear-setup and slots. tltr: Wizard is a working horse to be efficient but can deal with all sorts of situations. Sorcerer is a easier (almost lazy) but a more limited character and by no means as sturdy as a wiz.
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Post by chirality on Jun 24, 2015 14:46:36 GMT
So just to get this straight: you say that one dc isn't important and folks should focus on damage. Then you suggest to go with schools that are extremely dependent on exactly the dc like trans. That contradicts itself harshly you know. That's not quite what I said. I said common wisdom advises for newbie mages to think of their DC as worthless and not to be used. This is a more delicate issue than black/white "use DC spells or skip DC schools entirely". I definitely said "hence the common wisdom..." not "according to my wisdom..." A mage should have these schools, period. There is absolutely no excuse not to, especially "DC won't be good enough" (the oldest and funniest HGvet joke in the book, right next to "play tank as 1st toon"). If there was no way to reduce mob saves, SR, or boost your own DC--, well, then this black/white advice might be sound (ignore DC spells until your toon has beaten hells 3x already). However, there's a plethora of options for manipulating those numbers--it's one of the essential building blocks of the mod. If your toon isn't "by definition no longer suitable for being played in this area", and you're not a "vet" with "overpowered toon for the area", then you should be relying on these to make runs more efficient. That means if you lack other toons in party to do that job, then yes, change your spellbook and don't waste your time. Claiming that a L80 genie wizard still has trouble Disint a machine, and therefore newbie shouldn't bother trying, is just silly. It's one thing to complain about Funky making L80 characters dominate in L60 areas, but it's another thing to shift the paradigm so that advice=only overpowered toons should be played how the mod designed them to be played, and non-overpowered toons (nondemi prePL toon in hell) shouldn't bother trying to play properly, because someone else with OP toon of their class will do the job for them. This is very situational and dependent on party/run/etc. If you're 2nd arcane, then yes, that wisdom applies pretty well. If you're the only mage, then it doesn't. If you're soloing, it applies, especially in a run built for the 55 or 55-60 range, where indeed casters trying to land spells without save-reducers can be a waste of time. The bottom line is that if the mage has these schools at maxed DC (for his build), then he shall use them just as efficiently as mages 10 yrs ago did. If he lacks these schools, he misses crucial and critical role of arcane in not just "endgame" but really anywhere, since most areas in the mod tend to have many things in common in regards to what expectations/role an arcane should strive for. (and killing mobs with nec/trans spells happens to be near top of the list) And despite your sarcasm, skipping necro is a very viable option. It depends though on what you aim to do with your arcane for the most part. If you plan to do aboleths and ely a lot it is a no go ofc and esp. for one that doesn't have several arcanes already also a no no. No. Just plain no. Again, this is the kind of thing that's resulted in a community filled with players that literally have no clue what to do, playing toons that have literally no value. The only way DT advice works is if DTs come back and start the dragmachine up again full-swing. I doubt that's gonna happen, so stop telling people to ignore basic essential features of their class (like trans/nec for wizard) because vets with 2x immute and cabana boys will fix anything for them. But you use even extended on your wiz so why do I even bother lol. I don't think losing extend is worth it for from-scratch wizard with bad gear and bad slots. The way I play wizard (not insisting to rest every 2nd spawn to change book), I simply can't afford to skip the immense value of slot flex from +1 meta feat. As someone who's whined about wizards as much or more than me, you should well be aware the issues of wizard spellbook. Cleric is easiest choice--Mr Gorbachev, take down that emp! And slotwise it's not much issue. Druid, well we hate to, but shall also drop a meta because school foci are simply more valuable; wizard however has plenty of feats to have required schools and 2x metamagic feats; empower isn't up for debate, and I prefer Extend for taking advantage of wizard's large number of buffs (vs. silent). Anyway, I don't understand why this is a "lol" thing for you. I've played wizards both with and without +1 meta feat, and I honestly think that skipping it only pays off if you're kitted up with sick slot gear and not playing in abyss (where spellbook prep suffers hugely w/ only one +2 meta feat for flex options).
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Post by Paradoom on Jun 24, 2015 15:14:27 GMT
Oh btw. I am missing productive input for Xian's questions. @xian if you wanna get your hands on illithid lemme know (pm me). Getting your hands on a genie will be too expensive unless you have some bur book of equal or greater value.
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Post by chirality on Jun 24, 2015 19:32:29 GMT
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Post by desocupado on Jun 25, 2015 16:55:11 GMT
Now that you mention it, I have not actually played a pure sorcerer before. That's something I might have to try. It also looks like I actually have Stargazer as an option. I'm interested in playing a Wizard for the versatility of spells. Why would sorcerers be more powerful? Anyway, I appreciate all the help you guys! Now how would I go about this build with a Stargazer? Sorcerers have one extra known spell per level, due customization, thus they tend to know enough spells for most situations / relevant to their spell focus feats. Also, pure sorcerer have a permanent CL+1, thus they get +1 for dc and spell penetration (you can also achieve this kind of bonus with a lvl 9 necromancy spell, energy drain, that stacks 3 times for wizard, and 2 for pure sorcerers) Sorcerer are much more fun to play since you can just log and go. no need to set spells. ---------------- Stargazers are awesome for splashing. Which in return decrease even more your spellcasting efficiency. You could make a theurge tough. However most benefits from theurge are significant mostly at lvl 55+ areas. On the negative side, they tend to have two less schools compared to a wizard (1 less than a sorc). They are pretty good a conjuration tough (blade barrier > evaard's black tentacles in ab with conjuration feats, regardless of having int as a main stat). Illusion compliments this combo with creeping doom (and plant domain) - which leaves transmutation or necromancy as a good third school. this requires a 25/15 spread.
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Post by xian on Jun 26, 2015 18:45:20 GMT
Thanks for all the help, guys! I'll make my characters and start playing soon. Hope to party with y'all!
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