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Post by Scotty the Man on Sept 23, 2007 21:37:35 GMT
And I dunno where you're coming from scotty but in my experience only clerics bother having decent GMW these days I haven't met a sorc or wiz with over +11 in ages. And last cania run I did with my dex bard it was me that was keeping everyone in GMW and keen. -S Oh yeah, I keep forgetting about those clerics who hav GMW as well . Just curious Sabregirl, is your dex bard build almost the same as Yue's? If not, do you mind showing it in this char discussion please? I just like seeing a different feats and other stuff
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Post by atomicsomething on Sept 23, 2007 23:26:36 GMT
If you throw artist into the mix and you're pure 60 you can get 1 more save drop plus a few more bonuses, which are a bit more significant. But in that case your saves and AC are terrible meaning that you're squishy in several different more ways than the typical cheese bard here. I'm not squishy ! More seriously the +10% conceal helps a lot here, and i've seen widow holding up in situations where a dex bard have been squashed (and it was standing next to me...). And now the conceal diff is 15% with LSF Illusion. Saves for 60pure bards are just what needed, you just need to be careful against some bosses. Most caster bards I've seen are 38 1monk 1pal, which means their stoneskin doesn't do anything in the hells anyway and the only real benefit you're getting is -5 SR. Unless Acaos lied to me, Artist helps for stonskin effect and SR drop, meaning all casters bards have the 30/+15 and -6 SR now even the 58/1/1 (i dont see a caster bard splashing more).
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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 23, 2007 23:59:05 GMT
Seeing as caster bards are pretty much useless other than support at least they can do is buff the people who can actually damage things. Do you realize that this sounds like assert that casters are useless other than casting spells? No, he's saying they are epic buff bots. And they are. Lol, spoken like someone who's never played one. ^^ Funky
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Post by sabregirl on Sept 24, 2007 2:31:03 GMT
I asked Acaos about bard stoneskin and if you read the documentation carefully it's clear artist does NOT affect the + of the song's stoneskin since stoneskin is listed separately as being affected by casterlevel rather than bard song level (which is what artist affects). 15% conceal versus considerably more AC is debatable imo, and there aren't a whole lot of skilled dex bards left to test against due to some of you telling them they are useless. Lets look at it this way: You NEED a bard in a hells party for a fairly basic reason - bard song and curse song to keep the party buffed and the enemy de-buffed. As previously pointed out dex bards (and this build in particular) are nearly equally capable of performing the core of the buff/debuff mission as well as serving as an extra dualing damage dealing dex tank (that's a lot of D's). As for the anti-KD epic being nice when PFs AND maels are together . . .sure it's nice but so far in my experience it doesn't last long enough to save the party from some serious pain or a wipe as it's hard to bring all of the critters in question down quickly. If the party is good generally it will stand pretty well on it's own, bard epics don't seem to be enough to save a party they're just something nice to have, but then so is a bonus dex tank and I've found almost every party I've had my dex bard in, does very well. In any case my own dex bard is similar to Mish's original build here except I went for maximum AC via Great Wis feats over Great Con feats. I think this is the only way to make a very tankish dex bard. If you can hit 130 AC at least with burs, you will be able to tank fairly well anything over 130 is gravy and really good gravy. Meaning that you'll only be screwed by dispelling, KD attacks and 1s. There's a shot of Gry'Kati's character sheet somewhere in this thread . . .I'll see if I can find it again and if it is up to date. -S
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Post by cathedralmaster on Sept 24, 2007 2:46:42 GMT
5-6 sr drop is huge vs the mass of implodeable fodder I have to agree with Raj on this point. For an imploding cleric (mine's 38/1/1) who has no way to safely drop SR on her own, the -5 sr from a caster bard song does seem to grant a very noticable bonus to one's ability to implode the general riff-raff in mobs compared to a dexer song. It's been my experience, at least as far as the traditional mobs go, that out of the implodables, as long as you have a good caster bard, it's really only the very high sr creatures (ie. the hamatulas) that require full mords or beyond it.
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Post by sabregirl on Sept 24, 2007 3:21:12 GMT
Indeed for implode I think I have noticed that to a degree but then why is the -5 SR so necessary in the extreme LOWER hells where so many of the critters there are implode immune anyway, and your necessary targets are usually fumes or constructs of some sort where SR isn't so much of a problem anyway. I took a newer screen shot of Gry'Kati after single demi, asmo arti and a couple of BUR items - unbuffed. Obviously she'll gain 2 more AC and some more saves on double demigod. Also note that I took the two trans foci for keening her own raps, a dexer focused in kamas could get another AC. Her AB as of now is 91 single wielding, 87 dualing rapiers. Dunno if I will bother reincarnating her as probably the only thing I would change is swapping around some skill points. Though I am tempted to go back and use the dex arti rather than wis arti. -S
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Post by Raj on Sept 24, 2007 6:30:50 GMT
Do you realize that this sounds like assert that casters are useless other than casting spells? No, he's saying they are epic buff bots. And they are. Yes, but not only; even with song and epics only they're acceptable, then the good ones take care of healing/debuff and actively contribute. A bit like the pre-changes druids, they were maybe the most boring char to bring in hells but the party loved them just for epics, everything else they were able to do was a given. Given same player skill I can say a dex bard is outdated and outperformed by caster bards in today HG high level game; Lol, spoken like someone who's never played one. ^^ Funky Personal gaming preference, still I can notice the contribute of a dex bard and a cha bard when playing with them. I know i'm speaking with 2 dex bard players here who are proud of their builds, but this is mainly a buffed dex tank that can contribute to the team with a good song, while a cha bard devotes much more to the team support and given the choice players ( me ) tend to party with those these days. This build was indeed the way to go for a bard, but some months ago ( and it's still in the archives ).
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Post by atomicsomething on Sept 24, 2007 6:54:07 GMT
I asked Acaos about bard stoneskin and if you read the documentation carefully it's clear artist does NOT affect the + of the song's stoneskin since stoneskin is listed separately as being affected by casterlevel rather than bard song level (which is what artist affects). -S Does Artist feat raise also levels for side effect of song (stone-like effect and SR drop) ? Yes, it does. As the book says, you need to hit 122/124 Perform as well for 61/62. Acaos bad Acaos bad ! ( like if i'm gonna splash on a caster bard and test by myself )
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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 24, 2007 6:57:06 GMT
5-6 sr drop is huge vs the mass of implodeable fodder I have to agree with Raj on this point. For an imploding cleric (mine's 38/1/1) who has no way to safely drop SR on her own, the -5 sr from a caster bard song does seem to grant a very noticable bonus to one's ability to implode the general riff-raff in mobs compared to a dexer song. It's been my experience, at least as far as the traditional mobs go, that out of the implodables, as long as you have a good caster bard, it's really only the very high sr creatures (ie. the hamatulas) that require full mords or beyond it. Any decent dexer bard is going to be packing mords anyway. They're also much better able to use offensive magic, since they don't have to be in sanc to survive. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 24, 2007 7:29:01 GMT
No, he's saying they are epic buff bots. And they are. Yes, but not only; even with song and epics only they're acceptable, then the good ones take care of healing/debuff and actively contribute. . . . A bit like the pre-changes druids, Aka, buffbots. As well as two of the people primarily responsible for devleping the caster bard as a counterpoint. Again, spoken like someone who's never played one. Dexers are just as good at healing as cha bards, since it's skill and not cha-based, AND they are able to get up in the action and do it without fear of AoO'ing out of GS. Yes, that's the particularly foolish trend I'm objecting to. Players currently have little exposure to dex bards, as caster bards became the 'in' thing when we finally made them viable. The fact that players are doing it does not necessarily mean that it's the smart thing to do. The amount of misinformation, ill-founded speculation, and just plain wrong advice floating around the server is staggering. You say that like it's somehow significant. Only 4 or 5 players have requested to have their builds moved out to the active forum. Mish has been gone playing guild wars since before the builds were moved into arhives, and has since left the server, having had no reason to ask for it to be moved out. Amusingly, one of the reasons he offered for leaving was that some idiot party turned him down because he was a dex bard. If you know Mish at all you know he's one of the best builders and players this server has seen. That a party would turn him away is frankly hilarious to anyone in the know, and one of the reasons I figured it was time to speak up about this rather rediculous trend. Dexer bards are some of the most versatile tanks on the server, not for pure damage soaking/avoiding or dealing, though they do pretty well at that, but at overall versatility. They were left out in the current round of edits precisely because they ARE pretty potent, and the additional dex checks have only made them better at tanking. Even before the additions to cha bards, dex bards were underplayed, I suspect because players don't 'get' them. Listening to your reasoning only strengthens that suspicion. Clearly players are fixating overmuch on the bard buffs, in a fashion similar to shunt, as you noted above, to the point where they're using them as a crutch. If it turns out the caster bard spell edits were not enough to make them viable casters in their own right, we'll probably wind up doing another round and tweaking the epics further. Even so, they are not quite all they are cracked up to be, and can get a party in real trouble if they give out at the wrong time, whereas an extra tank adds a more stable form of support - even if he dies, the entire party doesn't take a hit in defensive effectiveness at once, as happens when buffs fade. In summary, I would try actually partying with a few good dexer bards before you jump to any conclusions. Funky
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Post by Raj on Sept 24, 2007 10:28:06 GMT
In summary, I would try actually partying with a few good dexer bards before you jump to any conclusions. Funky As you said cha bard are the new trend so it's actually hard to find some to party with; lately I found only Claus and Fallengrace ones online on my timezone and partied with them, while in the past I was in party with your, SG and Mish ones; sry to hear about Mish being turned down, I guess I decided to debate in the wrong thread ( I could rant with you about the first comes first served policy that keeps good players out of runs and causes many wipe before the run even starts because of a bad party composition, that's material for another thread btw ) Anyway, if I'd be asked to chose between a dex bard and a cha one as the ONLY spot left for a deep hell layer run I'd vote for the cha one, mainly because in those layers ( my ) parties tend to organize and specialize the roles, and in my experience that works. A dex bard able to fight on its own and singing as a backup would be a nice addiction as well, but that's about party composition ( as sometime you just need more muscles ) or layer you're going to visit: if I'm playing a low dex char in Malbolge I'd be really happy to have a cha bard with me, in Maladomini I could live with some kd and a dex bard would add dmg vs the many not implodeable mobs, in Nessus knowing I'm going to face many nasty mixed spawns and having to deal with silence I keep thinking a well timed epic is a must have; arrange a run there with a dex bard only and prove me I'm wrong
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Post by nicnik on Sept 24, 2007 12:05:52 GMT
dex bards are still great, if when setting up the party u think of them as a dex tank.
Their useful to the party as they can tank and also act as an additional healer, bluffer/taunter. I would def try fit in bluff for a dex bard, and if it has heal skill i'd consider dropping it for that.
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Post by cataclysmic on Sept 24, 2007 12:25:37 GMT
Have actually beren thinking about building a Dex Bard, for some reason a Caster bard just doesn't appeal to me, too used to playing tanks I guess. Was looking at this build for ideas since have never built a bard before. Personally I would rather take a fighter bard than a caster bard to hell. Why? Well if the bard is the last one standing I reckon the Dexer has the most chance of rezzing me than the Caster. And yeah I know Caster bards can GS, well so can clerics and Mages but I've still wiped when they were in a prty under gs. Shouts of I WAS IN GS!!!!!! after the guy in GS dies always amuse me
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Post by Scotty the Man on Sept 24, 2007 14:35:41 GMT
If both the dex bard and the caster bard are in the party, they would make the team swipe through the spawn quickly and be unstoppable ;D. Anyway, I have finally decided that I will make a dex bard (since I haven't played a dex tank or any tanks b4). But the question is, how will I make one for the pixie subrace with the gmw +14 buff and hav GSF transmutation or higher?
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Post by tempus on Sept 24, 2007 15:39:02 GMT
Scotty this is what I would do to this build to get sf/gsf trans and esf enchant on the pixie subby. Replace the 2handed weapon feats with sf/gsf trans....move wep focus from epic to pre-epic. fill in the epic spot with lasting inspiriation. the 2 free freats in ll would then be llwf and ll enchant, after having used the book for enchant. This will net you your goal of gsf trans and a +14 gmw. Also note you may take esf trans in place of llwf. You would be very hard pressed to get ll trans due to the fact you then would have to drop 2 con to get it, and with your ave health as is, I'm not sure that is wise.
Amicus
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