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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Apr 15, 2008 23:56:49 GMT
Ok I've seen a lot of talk about how hard it is to get a turner with decent ac and how hard it is to make turners with ac over 120. Since I hit 125ac in hell with Girding, UEF, Song etc I figured I would post my build for you all to tear to pieces and tell me where I went wrong Subrace: Half Celestial Base Race: Human Below are the Stats at level 60. I never took down the original starting stats and can't remember them tbh. Nekked Stats at 60 are first with fully geared stats after. Not Demi yet but needs only Nessus for that. The CHA Stat also includes +2 from the CHA Artifact Stats are Nekked/Fully Geared/Demi STR 8/20/22 DEX 8/18/20 CON 12/24/26 INT 14/26/28 WIS 25/37/39 CHA 48/60/62 Saves: 28/20/35 (54/45/61 with gear) AC with no gear just buffs is 121 Skills are as follows: (Nekked and in full gear) Craft Armour 65/71 Discipline 62/118 Heal 70/116 Parry 62/50 Tumble 62/50 Feat taken (Not including feats that come free with build or race and in no particular order) Blooded Bullheaded Extra Turning Great CHA 1-6 Great WIS 1-3 Extend Spell Planar Turning LSA Discipline LSA Tumble LSF Discipline Legendary Spell Penetration Spell Focuses: Epic Necromancy Epic Evocation Legendary Divination Domains: Destruction Earth Good Plant I actually took LSF Discipline by mistake reading the feat wrong at level up as being LSA. I would probably have taken another Domain, Armour Skin for an extra bit of ac perhaps or you could use it for Blind Fight. The spell Focuses I took as feats and used a Tome for Spell Penetration. This build can and does stand in the middle of mobs turning. It has high enough ac and with the help of Gate it is hardy enough to take a beating and I may have even done myself a favour with the LSF Discipline error since the build has done every layer except Nessus and has yet to be slagged. Ok well thats the build now go ahead and tell me how bad it is [EDIT: This build is now Demi x 2]
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Post by chainlink on Apr 16, 2008 7:57:51 GMT
It may be hard to get an ac over 120 but if it's at the cost of offensive power or flexibility I'm not sure it's that critical. I think people get too hung up on having max ac for non tank builds my 5x demi cleric has an ac of 115 and my 2x turner has 111 both seem to survive fine in 99% of the runs I do. Unless you're intending trying to frontline in a below par Hells party your ac is not going to be a massive issue. Nothing wrong with your build though it's just another take on creating a turner.
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Post by tarrin on Apr 16, 2008 11:21:57 GMT
Personally, if you're going to make a build saying 'screw my offense, lets talk defense' (which is what you're doing, a CHA of 60 with the artifact and a perfectly good BUR race is a bit of an embarrassment) then why don't you actually make it good defensively, instead of comprimising on both? 125 AC isn't good enough to make you a frontline caster, because vast quantities are lost when flatfooted, which you may well be a lot of the time. Personally, I don't see what's wrong with: highergroundpoa.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=buildarchive&action=display&thread=9199with a little adaptation (I took divination, and for reincarnation I'm swapping the domains around to get creeping doom - using illu focus on staff and chugging a pot if it's an emergency). With that build, I've hit 119ac single demi, which I think is perfectly acceptable given that I will never be able to stand up to most enemies for long. Remember that you are playing a turner with this, if you're running up to something with the intention of tanking it and you're not turning it (which immobilises it anyway) then I start to wonder if you shouldn't actually be playing a tank, as you seem to have the mindset of someone playing one. To me, the charisma on a turner is just as important as wisdom for a cleric, for their implode DC. Might start campaigning for people to ask their turners their charisma now, especially if they're using a BUR race... Just my opinion, but I absolutely love my turner. It's two runs away from double demi and I couldn't be happier with it. That being said, I made mine with the intention of duoing a couple of runs with it (one which I needed to be demi for) and it's certainly been successful there. I think it's right on the edge of being useful in the pyramid with 66 CHA, 68 and I might be a little happier.
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Apr 16, 2008 11:55:26 GMT
Hang on, I used a BUR Subrace to make it EASIER to get the CHA to 60. I did it with the goal of 60 CHA in mind, so embarassment no, getting what I wanted yes. 64 CHA at double Demi really isn't bad. 70 CHA is nice I suppose but really isn't required in any way shape or form 125AC is more AC than some Tanks I have seen standing up to Pit Fiends in Hell so yes its plenty to be a frontliner. Also this build is tagged through Cania and managed to successfully turn Colds there so I don't see how the 60 CHA has hurt the build in any way. I also have CD which I forgot to mention. The whole point of the build wasn't to max out my DC to the highest possible using a BUR Sub, if I was going to do that I could quite easily of come up with a 70 CHA Build with rubbish ac that relies purely on Gate to survive doing what I see far too many turners doing in hell, nerfing their turning power by standing way back behind every one else. I wanted to get up front so that the first thing happening to the mobs when they spawn is they get frozen. Then cursed, prayered, then I start destroying things. Makes it a hell of a lot easier when nasty randoms happen and such. Turners are more powerful the closer they are to a mob, its this reason I wanted decent ac on it, so I could get close to them. Being flat footed when next to a mob doesn't matter if it aint hitting u, getting slaughtered thanks to low ac when u run into middle of a mob might tho. As for Arch's build it is good, not denying it, but like all the other builds posted on these boards, it isn't mine. I like to make my own builds, but that's just me
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Post by chainlink on Apr 16, 2008 12:40:01 GMT
I have plant on mine and Epic Illusion focus for the improved inflict effect and if you ask people I play with I don't hang back and I don't use gate at all. In all but the worst situations my buffs keep me alive long enough to do some real damage then I use GR on the tanks to help them beat stuff down and cast CD to make the damage they do more effective.
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Post by kite on Apr 16, 2008 13:56:32 GMT
I'm afraid your wrong, being flat footed does matter. The extra ac you have, roughly 6 more then other turners, is from LSA tumble and you don't recieve tumble ac whilst flatfooted. As far as front line tanks are concerned, they have better gear on to stand up to mobs, some will be crit immune, and a lot will have more phys immunity or ac then your turner. Ac isn't the only requirement of being a frontliner, but not having it is no reason for a cleric/turner not to be there either. Personally i'd drop blooded/lsa tumble and lsf disc for an extra pre-epic feat and 2 more great charisma's (then maybe drop 2 int and put it in con). You could even take combat casting/improved combat casting if you don't want the extra charisma. Other then then that i'd say it was a fairly solid build though.
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Apr 16, 2008 15:35:33 GMT
Kite u misssed the point of waht I was trying to say.
Yes I know being flat footed matters. What I mean is when running up to a mob I am running, performing an action that does not leave me flat footed so the action counts, whilst I am turning yes I am flatfooted, gate and my other buffs keeps me alive long enuf then to hold them lonmg enuf to get the tirn out, which then immobilises most of what is around me, including any pitfiend, malebrache, kyton, hama, maelephant, etc that might really hurt me. Basically it isn't hitting me nemore, that is what I mean when I say being flat footed doesn't matter, they can only hit me when I am flat footed if they can, well, hit me, once turned they can't, this gives me plenty of time to get the prayer, circle of doom out and turn to destroy.
As for ac not being the only requirement of being a front liner I am aware of that also having several tank builds myself, including a DD needing nessus, Lash Dexer needing nessus for demi x 2 and a Staffmaster that neess Cania, my turner hasn't the huge need for spell slots that a normal cleric has so I can compensate for the lack there with gear also. Fully geared and buffed my turner has almost 100% immune to all elements and enuf phys immunes to take more damage than some DD's I have seen. But that is a matter of gear not build.
The Eternal Return Epic ensures that if I do go down I am back up in gs able to get away safely enuf to gr some tanks/casters, miracle if needed or rebuf and get right back in there turning.
Thing is I am used to playing tanks so my play can be fairly aggressive with my turner, I don't hang back, I am on the front line turning so I do need the ac and the immunes to stay alive.
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Post by kite on Apr 16, 2008 16:20:35 GMT
Those must be some pretty poor DD's and i certainly wouldn't want to be in a hells party with a DD that has less phys immune then any turner. If they are immobilised and don't hit you, then my point still stands. You don't need the ac.
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Post by tarrin on Apr 16, 2008 16:53:13 GMT
The whole point of the build wasn't to max out my DC to the highest possible using a BUR Sub, if I was going to do that I could quite easily of come up with a 70 CHA Build with rubbish ac that relies purely on Gate to survive doing what I see far too many turners doing in hell, nerfing their turning power by standing way back behind every one else. I've seen this point suggested before, and I didn't like it being suggested then. I don't like this tarring turners with the same brush, I'm not one to 'nerf my turner power' by standing back. Perhaps you are 'nerfing your turner power' by not having enough charisma and relying heavily on your (low) and (ineffective) AC.
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Apr 16, 2008 19:48:34 GMT
Those must be some pretty poor DD's and i certainly wouldn't want to be in a hells party with a DD that has less phys immune then any turner. If they are immobilised and don't hit you, then my point still stands. You don't need the ac. I said it has enuf immunes etc to take more damage than some DD's including with my buffs, never said the DD's had less Phys Immune. And again your really aren't reading, the ac helps me not get hit when there are mobs that aren't turned and I am running to get to them. Sheesh go play a turner already so you know what I mean
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Apr 16, 2008 19:51:02 GMT
The whole point of the build wasn't to max out my DC to the highest possible using a BUR Sub, if I was going to do that I could quite easily of come up with a 70 CHA Build with rubbish ac that relies purely on Gate to survive doing what I see far too many turners doing in hell, nerfing their turning power by standing way back behind every one else. I've seen this point suggested before, and I didn't like it being suggested then. I don't like this tarring turners with the same brush, I'm not one to 'nerf my turner power' by standing back. Perhaps you are 'nerfing your turner power' by not having enough charisma and relying heavily on your (low) and (ineffective) AC. Only thing I can say here is come watch my turner in action, actions speak louder than words after all. Have only seen one turner so far turn as well as mine. Every other turner with higher CHA than mine doesn't seem to turn half as well ALtho I will appologies for generalising and will correct my statement. Altho I am aware not ALL turners stand at the back trying to turn, ALOT do. Happy
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Post by zerragon on Apr 16, 2008 19:51:40 GMT
I prefer less ac, lots of immunity on turner. Since i juggled around my equipment and started using Asmo rod, I just dont take much damage at all anymore. 60% physical from items, ~100% to 4 elements, breach, mord not to mention Gate does the trick. Even knockdowned beating.
Also, the extra option to bestow curses and land -12 SR on mobs after turnables are dealt with, works quite nice.
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Apr 16, 2008 20:01:44 GMT
Hmmm after re reading my posts I wanna appologise. I sound like a bit of an idiot ranting away. Point of this build is to show that an effective turner can be made with decent ac. Which this is. No it doesn't have uber ac and it's CHA isn't as high as some but it does turn very effectively even as far as Cania. With regards to Zerr I aint got asmo rod Lol but Gate is a nice spell to have. I have seen some very effective turners with the high CHA too but high CHA wasn't the point here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2008 20:03:22 GMT
Apologies if this is off topic but ...
Cata I'd be interested in your experience playing through the Hells with a 60 Cha turner.
I have an Aasimar pure cleric build who doesn't have the luxury of high AC or high Cha (I think I am at 58 ... without arti) who has played well in desert/DB but I am wary of taking further.
In a DB run I can Gate up (with Epic Div focus) and run into a mass and usually immobilize most stuff, pray then punch the turn switch a couple of times and disintegrate most mobs. As long as the tanks keep the scorps off me then life is good.
If I stay back and try to turn then my effectiveness is hampered - I can't immobilize everything so something breaks through the line and I am squishy hamburger or stoned or killed/disabled in some other way.
My concern is that if I take this build to Hell my life will be miserable ... not enough Cha to immobilize EVERYTHING and deep rooted squishiness that will mean that I am going to spend alot of time on my backside or worse in limbo.
I think it's clear from this thread that:
Non-squishy, high ac, low Cha turner works Squishy, low ac, high Cha works
But how far am I going to get with
Squishy, low ac, low Cha
I am thinking about retiring the toon and reincarnating as a Kenku imploder (basically only 1-2 DC shy of BUR build)
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Apr 17, 2008 0:35:43 GMT
My experience is that 60 CHA is perfectly fine for hell. The build I posted here only has 60 cha and is tagged through Cania remember.
Even as deep as Cania I am turning Colds, etc. As long as u remember GR, Prayer, Battletide and Circle of Doom and as long as the bard is half way decent you will be fine, also don't be scared to ask for those mind fogs, if the bard aint got it the Mage may have, u will be suprised how much it helps. Come find me in game when it is ready for hell and I will happily take u through Tia/Dis so you can get used to your turner in hell and see how it does yourself
Cata
Edit: Don't be put off just because ya aint seen a low ac low CHA build work, if you don't try it you wont know, 60 CHA really is enuf to effectively turn and gate will keep you on your feet long enough to get those turns out, all you really need to wory about is the immunes.
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