(WIP) Gnomish Deulist (36 Sorc, 3 Pally, 1 Monk)

[adesin]

Ok, here's a rough build of a battle sorc using Half-Eladrin to take advantage of the new feat Rapier Wit, which boosts your AB with rapiers based off of your CHA. Since we're maxing out CHA for AB, we even get to keep most of our casting goodness Anyways, on with the build!

Both builds read the Conjuration book and Blind Fight Pandect.

Gnomish Duelist (36 Sorc, 3 Pally, 1 Monk)

"Half-Eladrin" (secret Beyond Ultra-Rare subrace) - requires Gnome
FCs: Bard, Paladin
STR +7, CHA +5
Free feats: Great Charisma I, Great Charisma II, Divine Shield

Starting Stats: Base (subrace)

STR .7 (14)
DEX 14 (14)
CON 14 (14)
INT 12 (12)
WIS 10 (10)
CHA 17 (24)

All Stat Points into CHA

Level Progression:

1 Sorc, 2 Pally, 35 Sorc, 1 Pally, 1 Monk

Feats

.1: Bullheaded
.3: Greater Spell Focus: Illusion
.6: Rapier Wit
.9: Spell Penetration
12: Greater Spell Penetration
15: Weapon Focus: Rapier
18: Extend Spell

21: Epic Spell Focus: Illusion
24: Epic Weapon Focus: Rapier
25: Epic Spell Penetration*
27: Power Attack
28: Great Charisma 3*
30: Great Charisma 4
31: Great Charisma 5*
33: Epic Prowess
34: Great Charisma 6*
36: Empower Spell
37: Great Charisma 7*
39: Divine Might

42: Legendary Skill Affinity: Discipline
45: Legendary Spell Penetration
48: Legendary Spell Focus Illusion
51: Legendary Weapon Focus: Rapier
54: Legendary Spell Focus Conjuration
57: Great Charisma 8
60: Armor Skin

Ending Stats

Nekkid (clothed) [Arti] {Demix2} |+14 CHA item|

STR 14 (26) [26] {30}  |30|
DEX 14 (26) [26] {30}  |30|
CON 14 (26) [26] {30}  |30|
INT 12 (24) [24] {28}  |28|
WIS 10 (22) [22] {26}  |26|
CHA 50 (62) [64] {68}  |70|

AB Breakdown

11 BAB
+ 10 eBAB
+ 15 lBAB(tensors)
+ 26 Stats
+ 1 WF
+ 1 EP
+ 2 EWF
+ 3 LWF
+ 20 Items
+ 1 Small

= 90

+1-3 (craft armor)

=91-93

+4 (demix2 + arti + 14 items)

= 95-97 AB max

AC Breakdown

10 Base
+ 8 Dex (+12items)
+ 6 Wis (+12items)
+ 20 Natural
+ 20 Deflection
+ 20 Dodge
+ 0+14 Armor
+ 1 Small
+ 8 Tumble
+ 2 Girding
+ 2 Armor Skin

= 111

+4 Double Demi
+1 Ely/Abo Bracers
+2 +14 stat items

= 118

+1-3 Craft Armor

=119-121

TODO LIST:
Feat progression - DONE
Ending Stats - DONE
AB Calculation - DONE
AC Calculation -DONE
Saves Calculation (gonna be freakishly high o.0)
Spell List

I have the ending stats mostly puzzled out, but for some reason the Class Ability changes board on the forums doesn't say whether or not Sorcerers get bonus CHA in the legendary levels or not.

On the spell focus feats, Illusion you'd be crazy not to get due to base gnome, Conjuration is for the uber orbs. I guess you can think of other focuses, maybe Evocation or Transmutation.

In any case, Tensers and EV are what is going to make or break this build. This isn't a staffmaster, so Tensers is going to need a lot of recasting, and your EV won't be quite as uber.

Also, First build on this forum!

UPDATE: Ok, updated this build to take advantage of Khan's suggestions and replaced the Abjuration focuses with a full line up of weapon focus feats, boosting my AB to 91. I'm trying to puzzle out the AC, but at the moment, without being able to use a shield, it's looking pretty grim. Looks Like Pharlan is a better choice after all -.-

Update2: Yeah, Half Eladrin verison is not looking good AC wise. It seems that even with the best gear (aka Asmo artifact + Elysium/Aboleth +15 Armor bracers) in the game and double demi, I'm only going to get to 111 AC without craft armor.

Update3: Ok, things aren't as bad as I thought, but they're still not good in the AC department. Using a Pharlan and using the Asmo Shield isn't *that* much of an upgrade over a Half-Eladrin as previously thought, only a 5 point difference, but with high conceal, every point matters, so it's still substantial.

Saves I'm not worried about. With such a high CHA and the pally levels, they're going to be ridiculously high anyways.

So, that just leaves spells. I'm surprised that more people aren't posting in this thread considering the rather involved discussions in !newbie chat both last night and this morning.

MinorUpdate: Realized that Griding only affects Armor, not bracers with Armor AC, so both builds lose 1 max AC. On the bright side, the Abo/Ely bracers aren't as important anymore

MinorUpdate2: Thanks to Jean Helix, I now actually know what I'm talking about when it comes to the AC numbers, lol. Re-added the better bracer AC because it apparently *does* work on bracers, and he revealed that there's a non-asmo artifact that Sorcerers can use that gives +20 Deflection AC, allowing me to use the Asmo Amulet for even higher AC. I now have a midget sorcerer who has nearly pure caster levels, a decent AB, AC and high concealment. If this idea gets nerfed I'm going to cry lol

AnotherUpdate: Ok, I am now playtesting this build, leveling it from scratch to see just how (un)playable it is. So far it's typical caster, though I can hop into melee and actually hit stuff. That and it's fun to make people feel uncomfortable by talking about my burning poker that's larger than the rest of my body while unfortunately being naked o.0

[MightyKhan]

sorcerers do not get bonus charisma in legendary levels.
with all boosts in charisma, a starting stat of 22 and 10 great charisma feats, you will end up with a buffed (+12) charisma of 64(+27)
with only 11 BAB, you will eventually reach an AB of 83, taking into account that you are not taking a single weapon focus feat... if you really want to melee effectively, i think you will definitely need to drop a LSF in favor of weapon focus, epic weapon focus, epic prowess and legendary weapon focus. you can then use the free feat for greater weapon focus. this will net you an AB of 91, which is plenty with only 3 base attacks. also, since you are already splashing a few paladin levels, I would really consider a monk splash at level 40. you can do a tumble dump for +8 AC AND get evasion AND benefit from wisdom AC. with 10 base wisdom, this means you effectively gain 8 points in AC (2 from higher tumble, 6 from wisdom) and 22 skillpoints (40 dump with 31 crossclass). unfortunately, you cannot drop a paladin level because that would hurt your tensers.
definitely something i'd consider...

[adesin]

I did consider a monk splash, and I may end up going for it eventually I'm just trying not to dip too far out of my caster levels for the sake of spell pen. As to dropping a LSF for a weapon focus, I'd probably end up dropping abjuration. Though a caster with only 2 spell focuses... hmmm. Sacrafices suck, don't they? Illusion would stay due to gnome base, but then Conjuration, Evocation and Transmutation are all fighting for that last spot Right now Conjuration is filling that second spot, but Evocation and Transmutation both have their merits. Evocation for the hands and Transmutation for epic wall and FtS/Disintigrate. It's a tough call.

I'll work out a Pharlan version here. The Half-Eladrin one will likely require a monk splash, but it will be optional for the Pharlan due to the ability to use shields.

Arcane Duelist (36 Sorc, 3 Pally, 1 Monk)

"Pharlan" (secret Beyond UltraRare; adds wings and tail) - requires Half-Elf
FCs: Cleric, Paladin
STR +4, WIS +4, CHA +4
Free feats: Great Strength I, Great Strength II, Divine Might
able to walk on quicksand, base SR 15 +1/lvl

Starting Stats: Base (subrace)

STR .6 (12)
DEX 14 (14)
CON 12 (12)
INT 12 (12)
WIS .8 (12)
CHA 18 (22)

All Stat Points into CHA

Level Progression:

1 Sorc, 2 Pally, 35 Sorc, 1 Pally, 1 Monk

Feats

.1: Bullheaded
.3: Spell Focus: Illusion
.6: Rapier Wit
.9: Spell Penetration
12: Greater Spell Penetration
15: Weapon Focus: Rapier
18: Greater Spell Focus: Illusion

21: Epic Spell Focus: Illusion
24: Epic Weapon Focus: Rapier
25: Epic Spell Penetration*
27: Extend Spell
28: Great Charisma 1*
30: Great Charisma 2
31: Great Charisma 3*
33: Epic Prowess
34: Great Charisma 4*
36: Empower Spell
37: Great Charisma 5*
39: Great Charisma 6

42: Legendary Skill Affinity: Discipline
45: Legendary Spell Penetration
48: Legendary Spell Focus Illusion
51: Legendary Weapon Focus: Rapier
54: Greater Weapon Focus: Rapier
57: Great Charisma 7
60: Great Charisma 8

Ending Stats

Nekkid (clothed) [Arti] {Demix2} |+14 CHA item|

STR 12 (24) [24] {28} |28|
DEX 14 (26) [26] {30} |30|
CON 12 (24) [24] {28} |28|
INT 12 (24) [24] {28} |28|
WIS 12 (24) [24] {28} |28|
CHA 50 (62) [64] {68} |70|

AB Breakdown

11 BAB
+ 10 eBAB
+ 15 lBAB(tensors)
+ 26 Stats
+ 1 WF
+ 1 GWF
+ 1 EP
+ 2 EWF
+ 3 LWF
+ 20 Items

= 90

+1-3 (craft weapon)

=91-93

+4 (demix2 + arti + 14 items)

= 95-97 AB max

AC Breakdown


10 Base
+ 8 Dex
+ 17 Natural
+ 20 Deflection
+ 0+14 Armor
+ 2+18 Asmo Shield
+ 20 dodge
+ 8 Tumble
+ 2 Girding

= 119

+ 2 Demix2
+ 1 Ely/Abo Bracers
+ 1 +14 stat items

= 123

End result for Pharlan is 2 less Strength, 2 less Con, 2 more wis, 1 less AB, one less LSF, 1 more Caster level and SHIELDS. Due to shields, the Pharlan will likely be much more viable than Half-Eladrin.

By the way, thanks for the advice Khan, you're Mighty for a reason xD

To be perfectly honest, Half-Eladrin really isn't quite the most optimal subbie to use with this I'd think that probably Pharlan would be best for this kind of build. Radiance would be interesting, but the -STR would mean having to lower CHA in order to boost STR high enough to get power attack for Divine Might. Pharlan Automatically gets divine might, so pharlans can just trade the Power Attack and Divine Might for extra Great CHAs, and you get to use a caster shield. But, Half-Eladrin gets +1 AB/AC due to being small and gets Divine Shield for free, and starts 2 Great CHAs ahead of the rest as well as being able to use the two handed animations with a rapier.

Actually, with more thought put into this, a Pharlan would get a net loss of one feat due to not getting the spell focus Illusion for free at level one like the Half-Eladrin does. This means no free feat at the end of the build, so no room for a second Legendary Spell Focus, so the Pharlan is 2 DC behind the gnome in whatever the second spell focus was. But, Pharlans can use shields, namely the asmo shield for a much better AC.

I finally have a use for my Half-Eladrin (assuming I can sqeak enough AC out of it :x)

[adesin]

This build is actually starting to look somewhat viable, which to be honest simply blows my mind. I wasn't actually expecting it to work, but it just might Pharlan is still edging out Half-Eladrin due to it's ability to use a shield, though I did break down and tossed a level of monk in the Pharlan build too. The end result is a caster with a score of up to 70 in it's caster stat, that has an AB that can be boosted into the mid 90s, and AC breaking into the 120s and 80% conceal (assuming no conceal dropping items :x)!

I *want* to fit armor skin in there, but I have no idea what to drop to take it. Half Eladrin could drop the second Legendary Spell focus feat for it, but the Pharlan isn't so lucky. Losing Legendary Spell Focus Illusion means nerfing your conceal, which is a no-no. I suppose you could drop greater weapon focus for it, but prior to demi your ab won't break 90 without it (not including craft weapon). After demi/+14 items it's easier, but even then it's iffy.

[halo27]

issue i would have with this build is stat checks, with both low str and dex kytons, erinyes, advespars, gelugons males and PFs are going to repeatedly KD (or freeze in gellys case) you. So either you need a top notch bard who you basically glue yourself next to or when one of those mobs spawn or u loiter at the back casting spells in which case a normal caster would be more useful. I would not be sure what to class myself as if I was playing this toon, I wouldn't be comfortable calling myself a tank...

Also would try and fit Greater Ruin into the build.
Your ab is at the low end of the spectrum as your stats include double demi plus arty, am assuming you don't have maxed listen in the build and also there is no blindfight so you won't be hitting much due to conceal. Would possibly drop armour skin and take Greater Weapon Focus, at least its another ab and you are going to be surviving via conceal rather than ac anyway.

[adesin]

I did originally have Greater weapon focus, but decided that with craft weapon, I'll be getting around 91-92 AB prior to the nonsense without GWF, so I might as well shore up my achillies Heel, AC. When dealing with high conceals like this build could get, every point of AC matters. I'm going to be taking the Blind fight pandect because there's not enough skill points for listen, which would be capped at 43 anyways due to it not being a sorcerer class skill. If you focused on transmutation instead of Conjuration, then you could feasibly drop lore for listen, but it would nerf your damage spells.

Also, I never really thought of this build as a tank, more like a "how close can we get to a staffmaster without the quasi, using sorcerer, only still be able to cast like a nearly pure caster." Which means that, it's a pure damage dealing concept, similar to staffmasters, double weapon CoTs, and to an extent, Assassins (the strength variety) Only with the option to fall back and either disintigrate/toss an orb into their face/weird the mobs when things get too hot up close. If my calculations are correct, then I get weird DC of 58 at level 60 before all the demi/arti nonsense. The only think worrying my about the build is spell penetration, but then again, assuming it's not a stat check nastie, if spells don't work, poke em.

Greater ruin. Would it be nice? Sure! Can I fit it in the build, both skill points for spell craft an the feat itself? Nope. Right now this build has just about the best balance of spellcasting and melee as I think is possible without actually cheating. If you want to be able to take care of machines and the like, focus in transmutation and take disintigrate. If I want more spell casting, I have to nerf the melee aspect of the build, then what's the point to the build? If I want more melee, I have to nerf the spell casting aspect, and once again, what's the point to the build then? The entire concept of this build was to get the best balance of both worlds in one toon, and crank the dials of both aspects up as high as feasibly possible.

In the end, will this build be viable in Hells? Maybe. I don't know. It mostly depends on if it can work without the optimum gear in hell. Hell, this all started as a random discussion in !newbie a couple nights ago started by Potatoe, so my expectations for this build weren't the highest in the first place. However consider this: We're having a serious discussion about a possibly hell viable battle sorcerer build that focuses on charisma for it's ab, and can therefore actually cast decently well. I'd say that's impressive no matter how you look at it.

[MightyKhan]

what tome are you reading?

[Eethen]

Divination would be nice, because that would give you a +16 damage reduction.

[adesin]

Oct 22, 2009 12:57:34 GMT MightyKhan said:

what tome are you reading?

At the moment Conjuration, but Transmutation is an option as well for disintigrate if you wish to handle Machine's. Evocation can work too I guess due to Polar Ray, Bigbies and Gust.

Divination isn't worth it because you only get +16 soak if you go pure caster iirc. Abjuration has some merit due to not relying on Girding and better mords/banishment, but other than that, not much. Necromancy is redundant with Illusion/PMs and doesn't offer anything else to the build.

[jeanhelixü]

A problem with this build is that at level 40 when you take a monk level you begin taking a multiclassing xp penalty. I've been working on figuring out how to prevent it for hours, and I just can't. The monk level is just too important to ac. It might take just accepting the xp penalty to make this build work, but it is quite... troublesome to be forced into that.

[adesin]

Ok, I need some help from the experienced sorcerers of the server, what spells should I take?

Some givens are Weird (lvl9), Mords (lvl9), Bigby9, Polar Ray (lvl8), Greater Orb of *element* (lvl7), Tensers (lvl6), EV(lvl6), but what else should I be grabbing? Also, what would usually be the smartest choice in element for the orb?