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Post by resonance378 on Jan 22, 2007 17:30:12 GMT
Don't do that in this thread. You decontextualize all the following posts, making deciphering them that much harder. Funky Repost then with updated stats OR return to original and add Edits in under a sub-section? I don't want to wreck any sort of consistency here so what is best? I've been using the strike tag for changes in original thread to keep the information as well as added an EDIT section before your request.
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Post by Bakchuda on Jan 22, 2007 18:34:11 GMT
It took some digging, but I found the old post of a quasiclass I posted a few months ago. Since the topic is hot again, I figured I would throw it out there for comment again: Treasure Hunter (Bard/Weaponmaster) Quasiclass A good treasure hunter is not a natural born fighter, but they can, with time, become formidable opponents thanks to their equipment. Requirements: CLASSES -- 18 levels of bard before level 20, and no more than 10 levels of WM FEATS -- Weapon of Choice: Whip (must be before level 25) Silver Palm Epic Skill Focus: Appraise SKILLS -- Lore: 24 ranks Bard song and Curse song are capped at level 20. For each of the following spells currently in effect, the caster gains a cumulative 1% bonus on all random loot rarity checks: Amplify See Invisibility Clairaudience/clairvoyance Legend Lore The original post and back-and forth is here: highergroundpoa.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=Tavern&action=display&n=1&thread=2861&page=1#1151965892Feel free to take this and run it in some other direction, it isn't quite a complete quasiclass IMO. But it's a cool and different idea. As something to add in, maybe give the char Epic Spell Focus: Enchantment when all the requirements are met, for the GMW bonus (a Treasure Hunter can discover the hidden potential of any weapon).
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Post by resonance378 on Jan 22, 2007 19:13:16 GMT
Have been knocking this around for months upstairs and don't want someone to beat me to it... Quasi-Class: Singing SaintThese masters of Song have honed their craft such that they sing while cutting down their foe in battle. Their songs inspire their friends as they rally around the Singing Saint. The Singing Saint will often bestow curses and call out taunts to their foes, enraging them such that they will forgo years of training in order to attack the Saint thus making costly mistakes in their own defense. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Must Have: 20 levels of Bard, 20 levels of Paladin by 40 (forces 2 class build because of Quasi-bonuses) Must Have: Feat: Artist (This forces the starting class to Bard) Must Have: Extra Music, Lingering Song, Curse Song by 40 Must Have: 6 Levels of Bard pre Level 20 Must Have: Perform: Ranks: 28+ Must Have: Taunt: Ranks: 28+ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Must Have: Feat: Weapon Focus - In any of the following - Short Sword, Long Sword, Scimitar, Great Sword, Great Axe, Bastard Sword, or Warhammer---OR--------------------------------------------- May Not Have: Feat: Weapon Finesse, May Not Have: Feat: Weapon Focus: Rapier, May Not Have: Feat: Weapon Proficiency Exotic (whichever is easiest to script) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 40: Spell Failure while wearing Heavy Armor is 0% At 40: Taunt Skill: -6AC@40, -7AC@45, -8AC@50, -9AC@55, -10AC@60 At 40: Taunt Skill: Ranks Gain +2 at 40,45,50,55,60 = +10@60 At 40: STR, CON, CHA gain +1 per 10/LL ( +2 STR, CON, CHA ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 60: 1/8 1/4 of Total Base STR CHA score is added to STR (or BAB or both - whichever is feasible or more reasonable) At 60: 1/8 1/4 of Total Base CON CHA score is added to CON At 60: 1/10 of Total Base CHA score is added to CHA -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Base Class Helpers (Making it Easy to Script I Hope)LVL1 Bard: Armor Proficiency Light, Armor Proficiency Medium, Shield, Weapon Proficiency Simple, Bard Song, Bardic Knowledge LVL1 Paladin: Armor Proficiency Heavy, Weapon Proficiency Martial, Divine Grace, Divine Health, Lay on Hands Bonuses of Bard Class to play with Paladin are: Tumble, UMD, Taunt, HG Bard Spells Bonuses of Paladin Class to play with Bard are: WP Martial, Ability to gain Divine Might and Divine Shield, Taunt, Paladin Spells HG Great Smite is Available to this Quasi-Class ( not necessary ) HG Guardian Angle is Available to this Quasi-Class ( not necessary ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ideas not necessary to success of the class:The Song That Never Ends AoE similar to existing SPELL: Invisibility Sphere WHERE party members within range NNm automatically receive: Bard Song Duration Permanent Until Death Upon Resurrection The Song That Never Ends starts again Auto Cast Idea is that this is a party affecting buff w/in NNm as long as members are within distance NN is starting base 5m at 40 and +5m every 5LL ( or make available through an item pick with 2 use/day)Removed: Adding this would eliminate the need to cast bard song... which would be pointless because of the HG bard modifications. This would needlessly complicate things. Paladin Change: Remove Disease: Cry of the Devout - as mentioned Here ( Of course, if at all possible ) Please make suggestions and I will update because I know this is a very rough idea. EDIT: Changed @40 bonuses Modified @l60 bonuses - trying to get the build to go general with their ability scores rather than pound into one stat exclusively. Added @l60 1/10 CHA Refining this further: May only use 1 of 2 weapons: Long Sword or Great Sword Cannot use Shield. In the case of Long Sword a flag is permissible (unless this complicates things, but was thinking of the Greater Horn of Blasting and/or other musical instruments) Maybe add restrictions to max stat base for CHA so this guy doesn't turn into a crazy saves monster. Correct me if I am wrong, but Bard is the control class since it was Bard at 1 and then 20 levels of it - I don't want Great Smite to be the focus of this build - we've got Smite-a-din's for that. Although having a single low power great smite could be handy.
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Post by starlandra on Jan 22, 2007 20:44:22 GMT
ok here it is... the Drunken Master
Requirements
race: any 20 monk 15 cleric (can make 20 as well if you want more 2 class only quasis) must be Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral
Feats Required:
Toughness, Dodge, Mobilty, Spring Attack
Class Descirption:
Knowing ones inner self is the way to true enlightenment. Sometimes, one 'needs help' to disasscociate from the material world to reach said nirvana. Only by losing one's inhabitions, can one truely master the styles of the eight drunken immortals. As one drinks heavly and focuses on the teachings of Li Bo, He Zhizhang, Zhang Xu, Cui Zongzhi, Jiao Sui, Li Shizhi, Su Jin, and Wang Jin, one then becomes in harmony with the Drunken Master, becoming increasingly difficult to strike due to your unorthdox fighting style, and at the same time capable to unleashing a blinding flurry of fists.
A Drunken Master forgoes the use of any weapons (drinking and wielding blades is just a bad idea) By doing so, he or she focuses only on the use of his/her fists, and makes them a very deadly force.
Powers: -upon reaching both level 20 monk and level 15 (or 20) cleric you learn the secret fighting style of the Drunken Master, more commonly known as the Blinding Flurry. (overide the flurry of blows button to now use blinding flurry) with 3 extra bare fisted attacks a round and crits on 18-20 x3 base.
On achieving legendary levels, a character with drunken master gains a natural Ac bonus of +1 per DEX bonus, to a maximum of +20 (much like the Dwarven Defender)
questions comments concerns? not sure if it is too much or too little but there are other things I could add if it is too little. Was thinking some free DR feats (can't feel as much when you are drunk) etc but you tell me.
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Post by setekhi on Jan 23, 2007 0:24:09 GMT
Regarding the Chosen of Vaprak, while parts seem rooted in thematics, what does being a half-ogre warrior priest have to do with being a cripple? People already hate treant just because it's slow, it seems to me that they'll view this quasiclass as completely unplayable. You can't even walk to the item store for heals! LL parties will hate you, there will be respawn by the time you're halfway across the room.
It seems to me that there has to be a way to make this specialized but otherwise rather cool quasiclass functional without such an obnoxious penalty. (As an aside, in D&D, ogres move faster than humans anyways being that they're 9 feet tall or better and have long limbs, so it seems really weird that the half-ogre subrace should be slow to begin with. But whatever.)
In any case I don't really see how this is that much different from a Dwarven Defender that just can't move ever. It just doesn't seem particularly practical to me. But what do I know.
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Post by resonance378 on Jan 23, 2007 3:19:24 GMT
Regarding the Chosen of Vaprak, while parts seem rooted in thematics, what does being a half-ogre warrior priest have to do with being a cripple? People already hate treant just because it's slow, it seems to me that they'll view this quasiclass as completely unplayable. You can't even walk to the item store for heals! LL parties will hate you, there will be respawn by the time you're halfway across the room. It seems to me that there has to be a way to make this specialized but otherwise rather cool quasiclass functional without such an obnoxious penalty. (As an aside, in D&D, ogres move faster than humans anyways being that they're 9 feet tall or better and have long limbs, so it seems really weird that the half-ogre subrace should be slow to begin with. But whatever.) In any case I don't really see how this is that much different from a Dwarven Defender that just can't move ever. It just doesn't seem particularly practical to me. But what do I know. You know quite a bit. The half-ogre from NWN vs D&D do differ. Have you had the pleasure of playing one yet? I can bring mine out of the garage to show you, but he demands a blood sacrifice to be made for the haste potions it takes just to get him out of bed! Anyway I do think that the quasi-class, being as restrictive as it is, could do without the Barbarian speed increases, but allow the normal player speed increases. Should be as slow as or slightly slower than a Paladin with haste when the player Chosen has Haste on him/her. Afterall what is the point of GETTING Half-Ogre, Working up to the class of a KILLING MACHINE only to have a snails pace to move about town.
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Post by exidorthequick on Jan 23, 2007 3:38:34 GMT
It was my understanding that when you became one of the chosen you were crippled in many ways. One of those being that your STR, no matter what it was, was brought to BASE 8. Just to be sure, I checked DragonChyld's "Vaprak's Chosen" post again. I don't see a single mention of strength in the quasiclass, in any context.
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Post by DragonChyld on Jan 23, 2007 5:00:47 GMT
Regarding the Chosen of Vaprak, while parts seem rooted in thematics, what does being a half-ogre warrior priest have to do with being a cripple? People already hate treant just because it's slow, it seems to me that they'll view this quasiclass as completely unplayable. You can't even walk to the item store for heals! LL parties will hate you, there will be respawn by the time you're halfway across the room. It seems to me that there has to be a way to make this specialized but otherwise rather cool quasiclass functional without such an obnoxious penalty. (As an aside, in D&D, ogres move faster than humans anyways being that they're 9 feet tall or better and have long limbs, so it seems really weird that the half-ogre subrace should be slow to begin with. But whatever.) In any case I don't really see how this is that much different from a Dwarven Defender that just can't move ever. It just doesn't seem particularly practical to me. But what do I know. If the average DD has innate immunity to level 8 spells and below, 60% Physical damage immunity and 20% immunity to all elements BEFORE gear then I guess your right this is just your run of the mill DD However if you cannot see how a Party would not be willing to have a slow WALL in thier group then You prolly won't ever party with a chosen IF Funky adds it. I however think the idea of a moving fortress is a pretty cool one The speed is the penalty for having so much power, and you have just proved how the QC is balanced as you just said despite all the stuff you get you wouldn't play one "Unplayable" was the term you used. Just my 2 Cents
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Post by setekhi on Jan 23, 2007 10:59:05 GMT
There's another side to that kind of criticism as well. Specifically, there's a distinction between a balance of performance abilities, and something that's broken that just has a really frustrating side effect. When you're actually beating something in the face, what do you care how fast you are? The problem is you can't get to your next fight. You can't even walk to your first fight. I mean, you people are talking about using a technicality. I'm not sure the PC Scrye was implemented to counteract what you would consider a balancing mechanism to such a class. Your entire playing style completely changes at soon as you start doing an immo run! Until then you've been able to just port around just fine, dependent on your party because of the usefulness of the PC Scrye and its convenience as a tool to keep parties cohesive, but otherwise ignoring this so called balancing mechanism completely through the majority of your career. Suddenly you're doing Thid runs that take five hours to WALK through! Only so you can stand around and soak damage that you can't even move to guard your party from.
In any case, if it makes it as is, I have a feeling that while it will lend itself to an absurdly powerful (overpowered?) build, it won't be any fun to play. If that's your idea of balance... :/
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Post by DragonChyld on Jan 23, 2007 13:35:27 GMT
well, I do appricate your intrest in the build, even if it is not positive, I disagree it is "Broken" no more than a Staffmaster or Bane Knight not being able to EQ the proper immunity rigs in Ssith is "Broken" Its just how you play your toon. Also I would point out I never once mentioned abusing the scry. The way I see it, Runs take a while to do, most of the time its standing still fighting a group of mobs. Thids houses are not that big, yet they still take a while to clear, and if you will loook over my original suggestion Again I recomended this build to use a CB, a ranged weapon. which would offset some of the penalties. Obvoiusly the QC is not for everyone, some people will decide that the penealtys are to steep, such as yourself, just as some people refuse to play a staffmaster because "Always having to buff for 10 min sucks, Its just basically a fighter anyways" so While i read your posts and considered them, I don't agree with em
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Post by setekhi on Jan 23, 2007 15:21:33 GMT
All I know is that everyone hates treant, for the sole reason that it's slow. I, for one, like them, and can see myself coping with their speed, though I admit I haven't played a slow race here (there's only two after all). (By the way, Resonance, I believe I was grouped with your low level half-ogre, and it was pretty awesome to see. If I recall it was wearing a weird leather getup but still had style heh.) In any case, there is something to be said for the tactical advantage of speed. But what DC is still supporting could very well sap the fun out of it. It would be totally hilarious to see this plodding monster crawl its way across the map...for like two seconds. Can you imagine doing an immo run with it? The word "backspawn" comes to mind.
Basically we're talking about a build that has negligible damage output and moves like it's carrying a grand piano in a bank safe. Things that are attacking you won't be dying very quickly, and once they finally go down, your party has to compensate for how they have to bring the fight to you. I really don't see the feasibility here. Your argument for the current setup is that it has a disproportionate defense ability. My point was that we already have an archetype that fills that niche, and it's nowhere NEAR as powerful. Your rebuttal is the same as my argument!
It would help to stop viewing this strictly from a player's perspective in that you can't just reach for whatever's more powerful when you're MAKING the system, as we're trying to design a system that while opening options balances power. It's hard for a powergamer to do, but you have to be able to admit there's a point that you'd love to have the build as it would perform so well, but would hate to see it actually exist (for overall power balance concerns). If it's STRICTLY SUPERIOR to all alternatives, there is probably something wrong. It would be like specializing it for goblins and give it 100% damage and elemental immunities and immunity to all spell levels and "balance" it with something that's just not fun (the best example would incidentally be near immobility). The system would still be broken, and it would not only take the competitive edge out of the game, but it wouldn't even be fun trying to get to the non-challenging battles.
What's the point of having all these physical immunities if you're going to stand in the back with a crossbow anyways? The best tank in the party won't actually be able to do any tanking.
Regarding thematics, if anything, a warrior priest of Vaprak should GAIN speed to keep up with its true ogre relatives on the battlefield. It's weird enough that HG (note: not NWN, specifically HG) half-ogres are slow for some reason, power balancing issues aside. But whatever.
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Post by DragonChyld on Jan 23, 2007 22:31:21 GMT
The funny thing is that the higher ups DO see speed as a balancing point, as evidenced by the fact (IF you look back thought the server updates forum) The Half Ogre was GIVEN slow speed to balance its large size. Point being it was given slow speed in order to balance the fact that it could use a shelid and large weapon. AS far as being over powered you are forgetting one thing. Immunity to physical damage, Moderate elemental immunity, or immunity to spells does NOT make it immune to say.... A heartseeker Scarab, OR a Sander, OR a living sand, OR a gravitor. I am NOT trying to come up with some UBER build that is god like but is unplayable. Your entitled to your opinion but please don't skew my purpose in suggesting this build. Perhaps you would not enjoy playing one, perhaps you would not even enjoy parting with one, but please refrain from thinking for the whole server, as several people have mentioned that they think this would be both a fun build to play, as well as a party asset. As for runs, as I said. MOST immo runs don't just FLY down the bridge, it is a pretty slow pace all in all. All that being said I still leave it up to the Admins to decide what is really balanced and what is not. But in my eyes lossing speed is as much of a sacrafice as any of the other Quasi classes have to deal with in order to gain what they ARE effective with. One last point. This build is NOT considered "The best tank in the party" It is much more approximated with a support build. ~ DC EDIT This is my last post regarding this build till Funky makes a comment on it, I am not gonna waste energy arguing the ins and outs of a QC that may already be nerfed.
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Post by resonance378 on Jan 23, 2007 22:40:45 GMT
That weird leather getup is the base for all ogres since the model cannot wear armor I'm the only one that I've seen about recently that will play their Half-Ogre! OGGG CRUSH! Coming from my side of the keyboard I don't think slowness will be a tremendous factor, grouping, moving about, as an ogre you just have to keep on moving in order to help the party progress faster. If you'll remember I would just sort of guess where the party would head next after I got done smashing stuff and kept on moving. I find that with as little down time as the mutant needs it really is just best if he is the 1st one moving. For high spawn areas where rest is needed, I think the party just has to be patient and let the Meat wall do it's thing. Same probably goes for this Chosen build. Let the meatwall do it's thing, then go in and clean house after it. Example : having wizards cast their fireball at me as I get surrounded as well as other AoE spells. Since they don't affect me, then I have nothing to worry about and the Ogre is usually the center of the kill zone.
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Post by bhao on Jan 23, 2007 23:25:20 GMT
I think that in order to qualify as a quasiclass, this concept would need to be expanded to include two classes. Also, I seem to remember Funky posting somewhere that on-hit damage for unarmed attacks was too much of a pain to be worth the effort. I like the idea of joining in elemental effects with a monk, and had started working on a Druid/Monk elementalist of my own, who would imbue a weapon with elemental damage (among other powers). I've set it aside for the moment because it started getting too complicated. druid would probably also be my favorite 2nd class, if one is really needed. something along the lines of 4 druid, 16 monk at level 20. ...or maybe cleric. make the cleric domains also a requirement. water for cold, fire, earth for acid and air for elec. you could then setup some other additional difficult feat requirement and have the elemental monk switch between 2 chosen elements, represented by the 2 domains. i have no idea how difficult scripting extra unarmed attack damage is, since i have done little to no scripting in nwn. so i can only speculate wildly . maybe by adding some on-hit property to the gloves when they are equipped. dunno.
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Post by phalthallus on Jan 24, 2007 1:55:02 GMT
I had a suggestion a while back, and think I've refined it a bit after spending some more time here on HG. I know I've still overlooked some things, but hopefully the rough sketch is there. So here goes:
Quasi-Class Name: Inspirational Priest
Backstory: As the group of battle-hardened veterans prepared for battle, they received the blessings of the clerics and casters of the group. This would be no easy battle, and everyone in the group was fully aware of this. The tension was thick; tempers short.
The Priest casts a spell upon himself, that he might walk into the adversary's camp, taking stock of what the enemy had in store for them. He returns to his comrades, as quietly as he left, and reports to them his findings. The group is ready; at least, as ready as they can hope to be. Apprehension is still high, but there is no turning back.
The group moves its way steadily towards the enemy: fighters up front, bowmen and casters in the rear. Finally, they are spotted, and mayhem ensues. Blades clash, spells whiz overhead, arrows rise and fall. The battle seems to be going in favor of the band of warriors; the surprise attack caught the enemy off-guard. However, soon the enemy sounds its horns, calling for the reinforcements who had to this point remained hidden. The horns served another purpose as well: they struck fear in the hearts of the party. They had not prepared for the reinforcements, and were unsure how to proceed.
In answer, at a volume higher than that of the enemy's horns, they heard the voice of their Inspirational Priest. The voice was soothing to the group, and at the same time, driving them towards their goal, encouraging them to push themselves further than they ever knew possible. It filled them with both a calmness, and yet also brought out in them a ferocity they did not know lay within their souls.
The Priest continued to sing, while scurrying about the field of war, healing those who required his skills, removing curses, poisons, and other ailments that his comrades suffered, and raising fallen comrades. He would often change his song, sometimes causing fear and weakness in his enemies; other times, his voice would stun them altogether.
Finally, after what seemed to be ages, the dust settled, the sounds of battle were silent, and the group stood together, victorious. And softly, they heard the quiet murmur of the Priest's victory song.
Requirements: Cleric Levels: 13 (gets you to lvl 7 spells: Heal, Greater Restore, and WoF) Bard Levels: 10 (gets you lvl 4 spells: War Cry) * Domain: Protection or Healing, either is fine Feat: Lingering Song Feat: Curse Song Feat: Combat Casting
* = I thought about making this 16 levels to get the lvl 6 spell Dirge, but combined with the 13 levels required for cleric, that puts you at 29, which seems pretty high before you GET the quasi class benefits.
The character must meet all requirements by level 24.
Benefits: * Free Feat: Skill Focus: Perform * Free Feat: Epic Skill Focus: Perform * Free Feat: Lastering Inspiration * Bard Song Class Level = Bard Level + (Cleric Level / 2) * Bard Song also grants the following additional benefits: Immunity to Fear Regeneration scales with character level: 20-30 = 3; 30-40 = 6; 40-50 = 9; 50-60 = 12 * Bless, Word of Faith, Prayer, Battletide, Dirge, and War Cry spells are effective for their normal duration, plus Charisma modifier * Dirge, Battletide, Word of Faith, and War Cry add both cleric and bard levels to determine caster level for DC * Zen Archery adds your Wisdom modifer + (Charisma / 3)
The entire goal (as you can see) is to have the ultimate party-player. Soloing would be nearly impossibe, but you'd NEVER be hurting for a party. All of the numbers may need to be tweaked, but the ideas are there.
This is all open for debate and tweaking; my goal is simply to create what I consider an as-yet untapped character type that is completely party-based and helps the party in every way imaginable. I know a cleric can do this to some extent, but combining a bard's powers with those of a cleric's would make a near-perfect party-mate. Soloing would be difficult at best. I think another reason this quasi-class is different is because you would focus on pumping charisma and wisdom, instead of a "spell-casting" stat and either dex or strength.
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