Post by arek on Jan 1, 2009 13:48:57 GMT
Requirements: 3 sorc, 3 PM before level 10, SF+GSF Necromancy, non-lawful, non-good alignment.
(yes, 3 sorc is possible, I've tested this in NWN and our own chamber a few times, including just today - the requirement for PM is 3 levels in an arcane caster class, not the ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells)
Restriction: Must never have taken any levels in a class which requires Good or Lawful alignment (Paladin, Monk, DD), and may never take any levels in such a class.
Alternative name, restrictions, and flavor changes: Baelnorn, Must be Lawful, must not take Bard/Barbarian levels, Neg spells (FoD, Ray, Burst, etc) deal Pos dmg instead.
Upon becoming a Pale Sorcerer at level 6-9, the character gains the following benefits:
Here are the viable build options I see with this quasiclass:
Either of the 30/10 or the 37/3 builds could easily splash 2 BG for saves or a level of fighter or cleric for heavy armor if desired, but at the cost of 1-2 CLs depending on what's being splashed. I don't see a 20/20 build splashing because it needs 20 PM for full crit imm and 20 sorc for spells known. Note: A 25pm/3sorc/12?? "Crit-imm tank with epics" build is possible with this...but that's already something that can be done without the quasi (which would simply give more CLs to what few spells the build already gets).
About the abos Sorc/PM staff: Changing it to be usable by Pale Sorcerers in addition to non-quasi Sorc/PMs would work, if changing a Pale Sorcerer's CC wouldn't cause problems with Channeling or the staff could be made to not change a Pale Sorcerer's CC. Alternatively, this staff could be changed so that it requires the quasi instead of enabling Sorc/PMs. In this case, Soul Bind would remain a staff special instead of being part of the quasi, and the staff's spellslots should probably be updated to make it a viable option over simply not having Soul Bind (or taking an ESK9 for it). This would require all existing Sorc/PMs to reincarnate, but I kinda figure they would anyway.
Feel free to pick this apart, declare it 'unbalanced', etc...All I ask is that you give feedback so that the quasi can be balanced, if possible (As may be obvious from the original quasi idea, I've always hated the fact that a build's viability hinges entirely on an endgame-level item).
--arek
PS: Some notes:
First off, this is a quasiclass, ofc, and thus gets a smaller number of extra spells/day than a normal sorc or sorc/pm would, thus reducing the spammability of its spells somewhat.
Second, I originally was planning on suggesting +1 DC per 12 PS levels (max +5, which is equal to Wiz/PM DC incl. Specialization). Given that players probably won't splash in that case, making them that powerful seems OP, so changing it to max at +4 instead of +5 seems wise. Having the bonus at +1 per 14 levels also allows for splashing, with 2bg (or 1pal for Baelnorn) being the only likely splash. I don't think this is OP, as splashing anything still loses you CLs (and thus SP).
Finally, with regards to EV: Pale Sorcerers need some form of defence. As noted by kaezar below, even the 20/20 variety with its crit immunity still doesn't get enough defence in its current state (the BUR Sorc/PM race helps to fix this, but I don't think it's enough). This quasi currently only restricts full EV to characters that don't gain inherent crit immunity or more than 6 PM AC. Since Tumble reduces its maximum provided AC by up to 6 for PMs and RDDs, I don't see any issue giving non-crit-imm Pale Sorcerers (or Baelnorns) access to Full EV, unless there's a problem with scaling somewhere that cannot be easily addressed.
Now, here's a question: Is (potentially, depending on the staff's status) granting a Pale Sorcerer Soul Bind as an automatic ESK balanced? Sorc/PMs have (that I remember are useful) Wail, Weird, ED, PWK, SB, and possibly Mord at Level 9, and most would choose Weird, ED, and PWK as their spells to go with SB. Are there any other useful spells for a PM to use/take at that level, and is it possibly worth the extra 2-3 DC to use Wail instead of CoD in some cases?
In any case, I welcome any comments on the above. It's a rather drastic change from the old "chuckle-worthy" pale sorcerer quasi I proposed all those years ago.
--Arek
==========
Original idea, for posterity. As noted below, please don't implement this one, as it's probably both OP and Gimped at the same time.
(yes, 3 sorc is possible, I've tested this in NWN and our own chamber a few times, including just today - the requirement for PM is 3 levels in an arcane caster class, not the ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells)
Restriction: Must never have taken any levels in a class which requires Good or Lawful alignment (Paladin, Monk, DD), and may never take any levels in such a class.
Alternative name, restrictions, and flavor changes: Baelnorn, Must be Lawful, must not take Bard/Barbarian levels, Neg spells (FoD, Ray, Burst, etc) deal Pos dmg instead.
Upon becoming a Pale Sorcerer at level 6-9, the character gains the following benefits:
- Pale Sorcerer levels count both Sorcerer and PM levels, including Legendary Levels where applicable, if the character's Control Class is Sorcerer or Pale Master.
- All Pale Master spells are also considered Pale Sorcerer spells.
- Pale sorcerer spells are cast with a Caster Level equal to 8/7 of the character's Pale Sorcerer level (this comes out to being the same as a Level 50 PM's caster level)
- Ethereal Visage is a special case for Pale Sorcerers: If a Pale Sorcerer has fewer than 11 PM levels (i.e. hasn't started getting crit imm yet), EV is cast at their full PS level, (but without the 8/7 bonus if EV's soak or spell level immunity ends up scaling beyond level 60). Otherwise, it casts at 1/3 of the caster's Pale Sorcerer level (This makes it the same as current what current Sorc/PMs get for Pale Sorcs w/Crit Imm).
- Pale sorcerer spells get a bonus of +1 DC per 14 Pale Sorcerer levels including LLs if applicable (this comes out to +4, 1 less than a wiz/pm with spec).
- Pale Sorcerers cast all other spells at half of their Pale Sorcerer level, including LLs where applicable.
- Most Pale Master abilities scale with Pale Sorcerer levels instead of Pale Master levels, with a cap of Level 30 or 50, as appropriate. Exceptions are immunity to critical hits and PM AC, both of which scale with PM levels only.
- Pale Sorcerers, regardless of class combo, may undertake the lich/archlich transformations, when they qualify for them (based on quasi level), and may obtain Lifeblight by doing so (assuming this change is feasible). Note that if this is implemented as Baelnorn, the transformation should probably look different, and while Lifeblight should probably be changed I don't really have any idea how to change it...suggestions welcome.
- Pale Sorcerers may recieve the Soul Bind spell from the Spells Pedestal as an additional extra spell known, provided they already have the Energy Drain spell (if necessary, they can be made to wait until L41 to get it).
- CC Sorcerer members of this quasiclass should retain the ability to channel.
Here are the viable build options I see with this quasiclass:
- 20/20 Sorc/PM: Crit immunity, more AC, low-level EV, no automatic Extra Spells Known.
- 30/10 Sorc/PM: Full EV, Automatic ESK 1-5, No crit immune, Less AC than 20 PM, but more than the 3 PM build, and gets the Deathless Master touch.
- 37/3 Sorc/PM: Full EV, Automatic ESK 1-8, No deathless master touch (this scales with PS level, but you don't get it automatically from PS levels).
Either of the 30/10 or the 37/3 builds could easily splash 2 BG for saves or a level of fighter or cleric for heavy armor if desired, but at the cost of 1-2 CLs depending on what's being splashed. I don't see a 20/20 build splashing because it needs 20 PM for full crit imm and 20 sorc for spells known. Note: A 25pm/3sorc/12?? "Crit-imm tank with epics" build is possible with this...but that's already something that can be done without the quasi (which would simply give more CLs to what few spells the build already gets).
About the abos Sorc/PM staff: Changing it to be usable by Pale Sorcerers in addition to non-quasi Sorc/PMs would work, if changing a Pale Sorcerer's CC wouldn't cause problems with Channeling or the staff could be made to not change a Pale Sorcerer's CC. Alternatively, this staff could be changed so that it requires the quasi instead of enabling Sorc/PMs. In this case, Soul Bind would remain a staff special instead of being part of the quasi, and the staff's spellslots should probably be updated to make it a viable option over simply not having Soul Bind (or taking an ESK9 for it). This would require all existing Sorc/PMs to reincarnate, but I kinda figure they would anyway.
Feel free to pick this apart, declare it 'unbalanced', etc...All I ask is that you give feedback so that the quasi can be balanced, if possible (As may be obvious from the original quasi idea, I've always hated the fact that a build's viability hinges entirely on an endgame-level item).
--arek
PS: Some notes:
First off, this is a quasiclass, ofc, and thus gets a smaller number of extra spells/day than a normal sorc or sorc/pm would, thus reducing the spammability of its spells somewhat.
Second, I originally was planning on suggesting +1 DC per 12 PS levels (max +5, which is equal to Wiz/PM DC incl. Specialization). Given that players probably won't splash in that case, making them that powerful seems OP, so changing it to max at +4 instead of +5 seems wise. Having the bonus at +1 per 14 levels also allows for splashing, with 2bg (or 1pal for Baelnorn) being the only likely splash. I don't think this is OP, as splashing anything still loses you CLs (and thus SP).
Finally, with regards to EV: Pale Sorcerers need some form of defence. As noted by kaezar below, even the 20/20 variety with its crit immunity still doesn't get enough defence in its current state (the BUR Sorc/PM race helps to fix this, but I don't think it's enough). This quasi currently only restricts full EV to characters that don't gain inherent crit immunity or more than 6 PM AC. Since Tumble reduces its maximum provided AC by up to 6 for PMs and RDDs, I don't see any issue giving non-crit-imm Pale Sorcerers (or Baelnorns) access to Full EV, unless there's a problem with scaling somewhere that cannot be easily addressed.
Now, here's a question: Is (potentially, depending on the staff's status) granting a Pale Sorcerer Soul Bind as an automatic ESK balanced? Sorc/PMs have (that I remember are useful) Wail, Weird, ED, PWK, SB, and possibly Mord at Level 9, and most would choose Weird, ED, and PWK as their spells to go with SB. Are there any other useful spells for a PM to use/take at that level, and is it possibly worth the extra 2-3 DC to use Wail instead of CoD in some cases?
In any case, I welcome any comments on the above. It's a rather drastic change from the old "chuckle-worthy" pale sorcerer quasi I proposed all those years ago.
--Arek
==========
Original idea, for posterity. As noted below, please don't implement this one, as it's probably both OP and Gimped at the same time.
Requirements: 8 sorc, 10 PM before level 21, GSF Illusion, GSF Necromancy, non-lawful, non-good alignment.
Restriction: Must never have taken any levels in a class which requires Good or Lawful alignment (Paladin, Monk, DD), and may never take any levels in such a class.
Upon becoming a Pale Sorcerer at level 18, 19, or 20, the character gains the following:
RP Notes: The +1 to necro/illu represents the time the sorc has spent perfecting his/her spellcasting in those areas, and the inability to cast spells from the div/ench schools represents the fact that he/she has neglected those schools in order to focus on necro/illu (much like wiz specialization).
Some notes on Feasibility: I do not know if granting extra spells to a sorc will trigger ELC. If it will, this quasi is not feasible at all (unless spells can somehow be granted "temporarily" by items). Even if it won't, there are still one question: What happens when an 18th level sorc w/2 9th level spells takes his/her 19th level (and gains his/her "second" 9th)? Does the player still get to choose another 9th, or does the already-gained 9th take that spot (the answer to this will affect whether the Sorc/PM staff is still an option)?
A note about the sorc/pm staff: I don't see this replacing said staff. Instead, I see the staff (as it is scripted now) as a viable option for this quasi, provided more spells can still be gained after gaining the quasi spells. If you want to use the staff, you go 18/2/20 or 20/20, gaining the quasi spells at L18-20, then using the staff after immo to gain back the lost PM levels, basically forfeiting epics for a wider spell selection.
Pardon me if this has already been discussed somewhat and thrown out, but it seems to me like it might be a better idea than requiring Sorc/PMs to use a BUR-level staff just to be marginally effective.
Feel free to pick this apart, declare it 'unbalanced', etc...All I ask is that you give feedback so that the quasi can be balanced, if possible.
--Arek
Restriction: Must never have taken any levels in a class which requires Good or Lawful alignment (Paladin, Monk, DD), and may never take any levels in such a class.
Upon becoming a Pale Sorcerer at level 18, 19, or 20, the character gains the following:
- All Necromancy and Illusion spells, including those that are not 'normally' necro/illu, but count as such for PMs (If this is too much, a subset of such spells, consisting of 3 or so per level, could be granted instead).
- +1 DC to all Necro/Illu spells.
- And loses the ability to cast Divination and Enchantment spells (with the exception of spells which are in these schools, but are considered Necro for PMs).
RP Notes: The +1 to necro/illu represents the time the sorc has spent perfecting his/her spellcasting in those areas, and the inability to cast spells from the div/ench schools represents the fact that he/she has neglected those schools in order to focus on necro/illu (much like wiz specialization).
Some notes on Feasibility: I do not know if granting extra spells to a sorc will trigger ELC. If it will, this quasi is not feasible at all (unless spells can somehow be granted "temporarily" by items). Even if it won't, there are still one question: What happens when an 18th level sorc w/2 9th level spells takes his/her 19th level (and gains his/her "second" 9th)? Does the player still get to choose another 9th, or does the already-gained 9th take that spot (the answer to this will affect whether the Sorc/PM staff is still an option)?
A note about the sorc/pm staff: I don't see this replacing said staff. Instead, I see the staff (as it is scripted now) as a viable option for this quasi, provided more spells can still be gained after gaining the quasi spells. If you want to use the staff, you go 18/2/20 or 20/20, gaining the quasi spells at L18-20, then using the staff after immo to gain back the lost PM levels, basically forfeiting epics for a wider spell selection.
Pardon me if this has already been discussed somewhat and thrown out, but it seems to me like it might be a better idea than requiring Sorc/PMs to use a BUR-level staff just to be marginally effective.
Feel free to pick this apart, declare it 'unbalanced', etc...All I ask is that you give feedback so that the quasi can be balanced, if possible.
--Arek
