|
Post by blksabbath74 on May 7, 2010 11:58:30 GMT
Hey guys, this is my first build idea for this server, let me know what you think...
Strength 13 Charisma 18
1) Bard 1 (Power Attack, Luck of Heroes) 2) Bard 2 3) Bard 3 (Weapon Proficiency: Exotic) 4) Bard 4 (Cha +1) 5) Bard 5 6) BDD 1 (Cleave) 7) BDD 2 8) BDD 3 (Cha +1) 9) BDD 4 (Toughness) 10) BDD 5 11) BDD 6 12) BDD 7 (Cha +1, Great Cleave) 13) BDD 8 14) BDD 9 15) BDD 10 (Blind Fighting) 16) COT 1 (Cha +1) 17) COT 2 (Armor Proficiency: Heavy) 18) COT 3 (Weapon Focus: Scythe) 19) COT 4 (Extra Smiting) 20) COT 5 (Cha +1) 21) COT 6 (Great Smiting I) 22) COT 7 23) COT 8 (Great Smiting II) 24) COT 9 (Cha +1, Great Smiting III) 25) COT 10 (Great Smiting IV) 26) COT 11 27) COT 12 (Great Smiting V) 28) COT 13 (Con +1) 29) COT 14 (Great Smiting VI) 30) COT 15 (Great Smiting VII) 31) COT 16 32) COT 17 (Con +1) 33) COT 18 (Great Smiting VIII, Great Smiting IX) 34) COT 19 35) COT 20 36) COT 21 (Great Smiting X, Epic Weapon Focus: Scythe, Con +1) 37) COT 22 (Improved Critical) 38) COT 23 39) COT 24 (Epic Toughness I) 40) COT 25 (Con +1) Legendary Levels
41) COT 26 42) COT 27 (Con +1, Overwhelming Critical) 43) COT 28 44) COT 29 (Con +1) 45) COT 30 (Devastating Critical) 46) COT 31 (Con +1) 47) COT 32 48) COT 33 (Con +1, Epic Toughness II) 49) COT 34 50) COT 35 (Con +1) 51) COT 36 (Epic Damage Reduction I) 52) COT 37 (Con +1) 53) COT 38 54) COT 39 (Con +1, Epic Damage Reduction II) 55) COT 40 56) COT 41 (Con +1) 57) COT 42 (Epic Damage Reduction III) 58) COT 43 (Con +1) 59) COT 44 60) COT 45 (Con +1, Perfect Health)
Obviously, I hate to waste 5 whole levels on bard and not develop it at all. I had originally developed 14 levels of bard, but figured at epic levels it would be pretty useless. Also, I needed 20 levels of CoT by level 41 and 45 total to get the CoT bonuses I wanted, so Bard ended up being 5 throwaway levels, apart from the feats.
I think that 10 levels of Dragon Disciple more than make up for it though (+4 Str, +2 Cha, +2 Con, +2 Int, +4 AC, some other stuff). Beyond that, I realize that Smite Good only works on evil creatures, but I figure most of them will be evil at high levels. Beyond that, I basically consider the 10 Greater Smiting feats an investment to get the +10 strength at level 41, with the Smiting as a bonus.
Anyway, if I've made any glaring errors, or if you can think of any advice, it is very welcome.
Thansk again.
|
|
|
Post by MightyKhan on May 7, 2010 12:44:48 GMT
a few comments: - 2hander/doubleweapon CoTs are definitely doable, BUT they are best played with good gear available, as well as full 30 levels. since at CoT level 50, your damage soak increased to 40/+16 which makes a HUGE difference and is one of the main reasons they survive. - what Subrace are you using? for a CoT, nymphkin should work - how did you plan the other stats? intelligence for skills is quite important, imo. you need more than just discipline (take a look at other builds to get a general idea of the skills that are taken most) - without doing any exact calculations, I can tell your strength will be too low for: -- crit immune - with 40 base strength, divine wrath provides immunity to critical hits - another reason 2hander CoTs survive -- decent AB - try to aim for 95. this includes: pre-epic BAB, +10 epic, +15 legendary, +20 bonus, feats, str mod and [craft weapon]/40 - have you thought about increasing your saves a bit? bard/rdd may sound nice for the bonuses, but you actually loose AB (from lower BAB) and you dont get the charisma based saves you would get from taking paladin levels. thats it for now, will comment more later
|
|
|
Post by gandoron on May 7, 2010 13:55:32 GMT
blksabbath74, a tanks need to have a primary attack/ab stat. Normally this is either Str/Dex or in rare occasions wis/cha. You seem to put a lot of point in Con, which gives you higher HP, but makes you a very uneffective character. Most tanks put ALL stat points into str or dex and 6-10 Gtr str/dex feats (smiters are slightly different). SoC CoT build is a good example. highergroundpoa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=prestigechampionoftorm&action=display&thread=17151The primary stats you need to look at are final ab, ac (you'll want tumble as a legendary skill), saves, Skills: listen, discipline, tumble and some concentration/CraftW/CraftA. You can also look at wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/How_to_improve_saving_throws for info on saves. It's a lot to figure out at the beginning. You might be best off looking at a proven build, then modifying it to your wants. Most CoT builds start with fighter and Pal levels (though mine has 5 PDK), for feal imm, saves and feats. BDD is an interesting idea for stats, and if you can get the Salamander race later on, you can drop to 1 bard level and either 9/50 or 10/49 to max the ab and relevant stats. -G
|
|
|
Post by blksabbath74 on May 7, 2010 14:40:50 GMT
Thanks for the feedback...
-Would I be better off going with a Longsword and Shield for extra defense, with the option of dual weilding longswords against lesser opponents? This is something I've toyed with, and would give me an additional general feat, as I would not need to purchase the Exotic Proficiency, though I'm not sure which one would be monst useful. Maybe Strong Soul.
-As far as Divine Wrath, I will still be getting 35/+15, which is not bad.
-I was not going to use any subrace, and eventually plan to reincarnate as a Half-Celestial.
-I haven't fully planned the other stats. I plan to cannibalize Wisdom down to 8. Upon reincarnation as a Half-Celestial, it would be bumped to 14. Strength 13 and Charisma 18 are a must. I will probably try to get a minimum of Int 12 and Con 12, though the BDD bonuses will give them each +2. I would think that would give me enough Skill points. I have thought about starting COT as early as possible and holding off BDD 10 until level 39 so I can save up points to put into concentration and spellcraft, althought that delays Great Smiting and requires me to purchase an extra Cha +1. Any advice? Not sure if I can buy Tumble, Concentration, Use Magic Device or Spellcraft for 2 points as a CoT, but if I can, then it shouldn't be a problem.
-I will see if I can rework it to achieve Str 40. Currently it is Str 13 +4 (BDD) +10 (COT/GS) =27. I would need 13 more, so I'll see if I can do that, and scrap the extra Con.
-I was assuming that the CoT's Sacred Defense would give him a pretty decent set of saving throws, plus the +19 bonus for Divine Wrath should put him well beyond the 20 max. As a side question, in Hell Levels, do the excess save bonuses apply against the penalties?
Thanks again for the feedback, and any additional feedback is welcome. I will look at reworking him for that 40 Str...
|
|
|
Post by bort on May 7, 2010 14:58:38 GMT
Having the option of switching from two weapons to one weapon and shield is a great idea.
Not sure if 12 int is enough....you might want to create a test character to try it out To do so, create a character with [test] in the name and you can level a character in the 'test chamber' up to level 40 to see if feats/skill points work out.
Tumble is a must for anyone concerned with AC - as a new player with no great hoard of gear in your bank vaults it's probably inadvisable to go for the low AC soak tank option (especially if you're not going pure COT) .... so you want this.
To max tumble on a class which doesn't have tumble as a class skill, take the blooded feat at level 1 (prerequisite for Legendary Skill Affinity Tumble) and the Legendary Skill Affinity:Tumble feat at level 42. You will then be able to raise tumble as a class skill from level 43 onwards and the increase in your defenses will be significant (you can take LSA tumble later if you want, just remember not to put any skill points into tumble until the level *after* you take LSA tumble).
The maximum bonus a COT gets from saves is +20. They cannot get any further increase to saves from bard song or gear bonuses beyond this (except for gear that gives save feats, like epic will). With lots of items in the mod having boosts to saving throws and with bards being as good as required for the tougher areas of the mod and very desirable in other areas, it's not hard to max out that +20 cap on most characters, so the COT bonus is fairly insignificant.
Paladin's CHA modifier based saves bonus goes beyond this +20 cap, as does BGs CHA mod based save bonus, which is why they're so popular, especially for high CHA characters like COTs.
Most people aim for around 55-65 for saves on tanks, depending on whether or not they want to play in the toughest areas of the mod. I think as a first character you probably want to be in the lower half of that range at least.
The bard/dragon disciple path is very tempting for characters that need high STR and CHA, but bear in mind that for a COT, losing out on the save bonus from pal or bg and the lower ab from a lower base attack bonus might put you at a disadvantage. The elemental immunity is certainly useful for a new player though.
|
|
|
Post by blksabbath74 on May 7, 2010 15:12:30 GMT
Thanks again for the suggestions. I had originally ruled out non-human subracesto get the extra feat, but switching to Longsword, I have an extra anyway, and could use the racial bonus feats. Also, the +2 Cha for Nymphkin allows me to hold off on BDD 10 until 39, letting me top off Concentration and Spellcrafting.
I COULD get CoT as early as Level 11, but want to get the +2 Int at BDD 9 as quickly as possible for the extra skill points.
When I get the whole thing reworked, I will repost...thanks again!
|
|
|
Post by jeanhelixü on May 7, 2010 15:25:35 GMT
35/+15 is far far inferior to 40/+16, since many of the high level enemies in hells, such as Pit Fiends use +15 enhancement weapons.
This means that their damage pierces +15 soak without any being soaked.
Because +16 soak represents a significant investment for builds (purity being required in almost all cases) many times the mobs are given +15 weapons to encourage that investment. This means that typically in hells any soak under +16 is of only slight usefulness.
|
|
|
Post by starlandra on May 7, 2010 16:01:13 GMT
but it will work out great for LL runs and pre immo. Have fun, level it up, and once you have some gear, and maybe a couple of UR races, you can upgrade to a decent subby, and start with a goal of 50 CoT for the above mentioned reasons. Then you can start in the hells and start collecting bur subraces so that some day you can make it he HC you want (though honestly, I think hound archon would be more idea for this build, and much easier to get)
|
|
|
Post by blksabbath74 on May 7, 2010 16:53:11 GMT
I see what you mean. Thanks for all the help.
Here is my updated build. Based on what you guys have said, I am going to work on a couple of other builds, Paladin 10/COT 30 and maybe a version of this that uses the Bard as the primary class and develops that, and run those by you as well.
However, since I took the time to rework it, I will at least throw it up here for you to see...
This gets Blooded for Legendary Tumble, holds off the final level of BDD to 39 to get some extra Concentration and Spellcraft, and meets the Strength 40 requirement, but still does not meet the CoT 50 requirement for 40/+16 Damage Reduction and 5 uses of Divine Wrath...
"Nymphkin" - FCs: Highest Class, Bard - CHA +2, DEX -1, WIS -1, speaks Animal, speaks Sylvan Strength at least 13 Charisma 18
1) Bard 1 (Blooded) 2) Bard 2 3) Bard 3 (Power Attack) 4) Bard 4 (Cha +1) 5) Bard 5 6) BDD 1 (Cleave) 7) BDD 2 8) BDD 3 (Cha +1) 9) BDD 4 (Toughness) 10) BDD 5 11) BDD 6 12) BDD 7 (Cha +1, Great Cleave) 13) BDD 8 14) BDD 9 15) COT 1 (Armor Proficiency, Heavy) 16) COT 2 (Cha +1, Weapon Focus: Longsword) 17) COT 3 18) COT 4 (Extra Smiting, Blind Fighting) 19) COT 5 20) COT 6 (Cha +1, Improved Critical) 21) COT 7 (Great Smiting I) 22) COT 8 (Great Smiting II) 23) COT 9 24) COT 10 (Str +1, Great Smiting III, Great Smiting IV) 25) COT 11 26) COT 12 27) COT 13 (Great Smiting V) 28) COT 14 (Str +1, Great Smiting VI) 29) COT 15 30) COT 16 (Great Smiting VII) 31) COT 17 32) COT 18 (Str +1, Great Smiting VIII) 33) COT 19 (Great Smiting IX) 34) COT 20 35) COT 21 36) COT 22 (Great Smiting X, Epic Weapon Focus: Longsword, Str +1) 37) COT 23 38) COT 24 39) BDD 10 (Epic Toughness I) 40) COT 25 (Str +1)
Legendary Levels
41) COT 26 42) COT 27 (Str +1, Overwhelming Critical) 43) COT 28 44) COT 29 (Str +1) 45) COT 30 (Devastating Critical) 46) COT 31 (Str +1) 47) COT 32 48) COT 33 (Str +1, Epic Toughness II) 49) COT 34 50) COT 35 (Str +1) 51) COT 36 (Epic Toughness III) 52) COT 37 (Str +1) 53) COT 38 54) COT 39 (Str +1, Epic Toughness IV) 55) COT 40 56) COT 41 (Str +1) 57) COT 42 (Epic Toughness V) 58) COT 43 (Str +1) 59) COT 44 60) COT 45 (Cha +1, Epic Toughness VI)
|
|
|
Post by gandoron on May 7, 2010 17:11:00 GMT
Jean is right on the dot, however I think that most hell mobs use +14 weapon enchancement, and only the difficult ones PF/male/random/worms/boss use +15. so +15 does have good value, but +14/x soak is almost useless at the end game (referring to all 60+ play).
-G
|
|
|
Post by blksabbath74 on May 7, 2010 18:37:07 GMT
So would I be better substituting Blackguard with this build for CoT?
|
|
|
Post by starlandra on May 7, 2010 20:06:58 GMT
spellcraft is useless for you. And you really don't need a concentration past 20 except a VERY few places. Epic toughness is a huge waste of feats as well, if you get flat footed you will be dead fast and no amount of epic toughnesses will help that. I only use that feat on XDD's and that is only because I HAVE to.
As far as blackguard goes, no CoT is much better. BG does not get the soak your CoT will.
ditch the skill splash on level 39. By converting those epic toughness to great str, you can drop your XDD to 8 (though really you don't need it on a CoT) and that is only if you insist on having RDD in the mix.
I have found that CoT when splashed properly, can do horrific amounts of damage. Say you splash in 5 wm for a nasty crit mod, or you put in 5 harper scout to get +2 more attacks. My cot is 5 fighter 5 harper 50 CoT and doe great damage even though I didn't do the popular double weapon route, but chose a greatsword instead (1.5 damage mod, and a killer crit range and modifier)
|
|
|
Post by blksabbath74 on May 7, 2010 20:22:46 GMT
Thanks again, for giving me more to think about...
|
|
|
Post by bort on May 7, 2010 20:26:06 GMT
The way HS and COT bonus attacks stack has been changed Star. COTs either get +1 from COT and +1 from boots, or +2 from boots if you're too low level COT to get the bonus attack from COT.
|
|
|
Post by blksabbath74 on May 21, 2010 12:13:35 GMT
This build is completely broken from the conceptualization. Can it please be removed from the forum?
|
|