|
Post by evilkittenofdoom on Jan 27, 2011 13:57:43 GMT
Well... I've got a gripe about Theurges, and I always have since I used one and found it exceedingly lacking from what I expected.
Effectively, as it stands now, you get one of three options;
Cleric Epics and a few neat Wiz buffs Wiz Epics and a few neat Cleric Buffs No epics and full spellbook options and crap DCs for one of the two classes
- All that being said, it boils down to two main issues.
Spell DCs being Crappy in a DC heavy mod No epics
I'm just looking to make a quasi-class that seems like it was tossed together as an experiment with them and then left in the dust for new ones, a more useful quasi-class*. I'm just really trying to get something to make this a more feasible option in general and (almost) anything that will help would be welcome IMO
*Disclaimer: That's just how I see it, and in all likelyhood this is not the case, but the quasi does pale in comparison to the benefits and abilities of others and I feel it's long overdue for an upgrade.
{Edited to reflect recent comments and input}
|
|
|
Post by jonuhey on Jan 27, 2011 14:40:09 GMT
No epics and full spellbook options and crap DCs for one of the two classes Your DC for both classes are the same as they use the higher stat for both classes no? Theurges just lose 1 DC compared to other classes, what is really unnoticed after x2. The most hard part of them is finding quickslots and gear for all spells and the huge autocaster queue (which is adressed if you have a TA or just dont bother about all good buffs). IMO, they just need a BUR subrace. Now if we were talking about Slingers, these little guys are needing some BIG help.
|
|
|
Post by Yojimbo on Jan 27, 2011 14:50:14 GMT
Theurges Cleric spells are all WIS based and their Wizard spells are all INT based granting little benefit from the 2nd class beyond extra buffs.
From the HG Wiki
|
|
|
Post by jonuhey on Jan 27, 2011 15:30:35 GMT
Yeah its true, you are right.
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Jan 27, 2011 16:15:35 GMT
In the distant past I do remember one of the most effective imploders I'd ever seen in Hell being Raj's Theurge.
|
|
|
Post by Yojimbo on Jan 27, 2011 18:58:59 GMT
In the distant past I do remember one of the most effective imploders I'd ever seen in Hell being Raj's Theurge. I don't think that they can't work but making a working Theurge is very difficult and barely functional on an open sub. I have one my biggest hurt atm is that I lack most any caster gear for it Im also still flipping on what Spell Focus work best for mine. I do still think something needs to be done after all the requirements what do Theurges gain? +1 SP at the cost of -1 CL and required to have 18 points in whats more or less an off stat. The biggest draw is that combination of Divine and Arcane casting but you really don't get a worthwhile benefit out of your 2nd class. I agree with the issue of that builds are practically forced to go 25-31 levels in main class and 9-15 in the other because the loss of epics is a sever issue for a caster. I don't put this as a high priority but I think it needs to be put on the table of something to examine for the dev team. Maybe as a minor change to the Epic Acquistion it gives a conversation that asks which epic you seek Arcane, Divine, Druidic, or Bardic. This would let an exception be coded in for Theurges to chose Divine Epics while being a CC Arcane and vice versa as well could be used to allow a 20/20 or 17/23 Theurge to get Epics. I would love to have both Arcane and Divine on my Theurge but I see no way to balance that as my current Theurge would end up with 6 Epics.
|
|
|
Post by KnightErrant on Jan 27, 2011 19:17:05 GMT
You want access to Cleric AND Mage HG epics on the same toon ? That sounds way overpowered IMHO.
KE.
|
|
|
Post by Yojimbo on Jan 27, 2011 19:25:45 GMT
You want access to Cleric AND Mage HG epics on the same toon ? That sounds way overpowered IMHO. KE. It is a want and we often want unreasonably but to be serious about it I think it would be an awesome twist to it if there were a way to balance it and limit it. The double epics are just a dream and a wish to me but would love for them to work out a way for it to happen. I also suggest on the subjects of Epics allowing a Thuerge to pick between the Divine and Arcane regardless of their CC perhaps even enabling and allowing Theurges to take less than 25 levels in both classes. The issue I can see with allowing character with less then 25 levels to get Epics would be that then might become the normal build then neglecting the current Wiz vs Clr CC. I also suggest in my post, or meant to if I neglected it, was a way for the off class spells to matter more as DCs tend to be so awful you don't use any the spells for anything except buffs from the off class.
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Jan 27, 2011 22:18:35 GMT
If you ask me HG's theurge is nearly as limited as the D&D 3e mystic theurge that it's drawn from, for the same reason--d20 mechanics. I don't think the HG theurge should be made any more powerful, whether I like it or not, for balance issues. I really can't see any logical and unbiased argument being made for improving or favorably altering the theurge unless said improvement involves neither being given access to the (HG) epics of both classes or tweaking in the DC/CL/caster attribute system.
I don't see what's wrong with the "problems" that evilkittenofdoom pointed out--that's the price you pay for trying to obtain both arcane and divine casting on a single toon. What more do you want? No offense intended but I don't think any of the quoted suggestions are that great...I don't care to go through the 5 and explain why I dislike each one but basically the top 3 are overpowered and the bottom 2 are respectively not much of a balancing penalty (the splash thing) or an oversimplified penalty that would if anything just make the theurge even less accessible to anyone without the BUR for the job. -6 Con? With the right subbie, gear, and demi status that could be relatively easy to ignore (and thus not much of a balancer); yet for someone with an open subbie, no stockpiled BUR gear, no no multi-demi toon to reincarnate, it's just plain overkill. I don't like the idea of making theurge--or any build option--even less viable for "poor" players than it is already.
|
|
|
Post by Yojimbo on Jan 27, 2011 23:25:06 GMT
I get what you are saying that it is just a terrible a QC as its source the gripe we have is that there is no reason other than ones own desire to build one to build a Theurge. I think this poses a problem for HG in that it is and will continue to become a primarily neglected QC. The only thing I think should actually be done is a way to make the DC, or anything else impacted by caster stats, more viable for the lesser class. I don't want it to be as good as the main class and most options I think of give the main a boost too. The best "solution" I can think is to give Theurges a fraction of their WIS to their Wizard spells and the same fraction from INT to apply to Cleric spells. This would potentially make more of the spells from the off class viable while not making them over powered but it does hold potential for over powering the main which is a problem. The only "solution" I can think to preventing over powering the main class is perhaps checking caster stats to be at or below a certain base score in order to receive a bonus from the other caster score. I would say at most 1/2 modifier to the other spell DCs maybe even less.
|
|
|
Post by wollstonecraft on Jan 28, 2011 0:31:59 GMT
I get what you are saying that it is just a terrible a QC as its source the gripe we have is that there is no reason other than ones own desire to build one to build a Theurge. I think this poses a problem for HG in that it is and will continue to become a primarily neglected QC. The only thing I think should actually be done is a way to make the DC, or anything else impacted by caster stats, more viable for the lesser class. I don't want it to be as good as the main class and most options I think of give the main a boost too. The best "solution" I can think is to give Theurges a fraction of their WIS to their Wizard spells and the same fraction from INT to apply to Cleric spells. This would potentially make more of the spells from the off class viable while not making them over powered but it does hold potential for over powering the main which is a problem. The only "solution" I can think to preventing over powering the main class is perhaps checking caster stats to be at or below a certain base score in order to receive a bonus from the other caster score. I would say at most 1/2 modifier to the other spell DCs maybe even less. I think this is more on target but a 1/2 DC modifier still won't make the lesser class' spells much more effective. I would suggest that due to the divisive nature of a theurge's spellbook, it would not be overpowering to let the highest stat determine DC for both types of spells. In this way, a theurge could cast a few implodes at (relatively) normal DC *and* a few wails at (relatively) normal DC. It would then be up to the player to decide if they wanted their gear to focus on arcane spell slots or divine spell slots, and it would essentially give players the chance to player their theurge as either a cleric or a mage in a given situation. Therefore, if I wanted to wear all Tia cleric gear, I'm mostly a ploder; if I wanted to wear all Tia wiz gear, I'm mostly a mage, or I can split them up and be a bit of both. But I would add that epics should probably be banned to the quasi so as not to give them too much of a boost. And further, monk splash should only allow full WIS AC bonus in robes if base Wis is 30 (or 40?) or greater. -WSCraft
|
|
|
Post by evilkittenofdoom on Jan 28, 2011 0:35:56 GMT
The problem I have with that is that HG is such a DC based mod, that those lower DCs will still end up rendering both classes effectively useless in late-game areas. You'll have to lower the main stat to get the other stat to half of the main. All in all, you end up with lower DCs to the point where you're close to fishing for ones more often than not. Granted, I haven't done the math, but I cannot expect a result far off from that.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for balance. I love balanced things as it makes everything useful in their own way. But a Theurge is far from being balanced; to the point of it being pretty much useless.
So far, this boils down to two major drawbacks that are severely killing the Theurge.
Spell DCs and Epics.
It's how to fix those problems that becomes the issue.
As I've said, I'm personally feeling that 1 epic from each class (and ONLY 1 from each in addition to requiring the proper foci) is the most balanced way to grant a casting quasi-class some epics. (I feel the same way with the Herald of Storms, but that's a story for a different thread). It totals up to 2 epics, and those have to be VERY carefully chosen, as you only get one per list and they have to fall in line with your current Foci - which makes building it even tougher. Considering that most casters get 3+ epics, I don't think that's a terrible trade.
DCs are something that is probably a lot more difficult to balance. Personally, I'd prefer using the highest modifer (INT/WIS) -X, X being a static number that balances out the benefit of having such a selection of spells, to calculate all spell DCs.
My personal suggestion is to have X start at 6, and lower that penalty by 1 for each 40 pts in Spellcraft. (After all, why get ESF: Spellcraft if it has no real use?) but that's probably better for someone else with more experience to say what that number should be.
|
|
|
Post by KnightErrant on Jan 28, 2011 1:15:36 GMT
iirc one of the few toons on HG with two Prince fight wins is a Theurge....pretty good for a "useless in late-game area's" class ?
KE.
|
|
|
Post by Shakua on Jan 28, 2011 2:46:29 GMT
Has very little weight if its only one player. you would have determine also the build, what epics and what it was focused in spell wise. and account for other factors
My suggestion might be still over the top but:
Have wiz/cleric spells have max dc according to higher stat. Drawback is its only max dc if they have Legendary spell focus for the spells appropiate school. This truely makes a hard decision on weather you be a catch (most) with lower dcs or high decent dcs in only 1-2 schools.
|
|
|
Post by kaezar on Jan 28, 2011 10:51:17 GMT
Frankly, I don't know where does this idea comes that Theurges are underpowered. I have a triple demigod Arcane Theurge who is now dis tagged and Prince Ready. It'd be much farther on hells, too, if I was able to play more often than I do, which is nowadays maybe 3 times/week for the lenght of one run. And mine is 2, not one DC under max, 3 if you count the spell DC ego item. using the spell penetration arty more than pays off, long term. What you lose on DC you make up for in SP. It is just that using the spells from the opposite class, you have got to use spells that don't use DC's. On mine, I use Creeping Doom, Extended Greater Restorations, Regeneration and Maximazed Blade Barriers. A Divine theurge could use Mords, Greater Breach, Grabby Hands, Crusing hands and KD hands, iirc On upper hells, the 3 times I decided to go for kills on Tia and Dis I won the kill counts simply by using normal, ext, emp desintegrats, plus ED, wail and Weird. You just have to use prayer a lot, keep your battletide and greater restorations up. In general, if you play smart you can keep your effective DC's on par with the other arcane caster and sometimes better (other arcane casters usually get hell penalties at the end of a big spawn, while you can keep yours up, and having a SP 70 SP makes your prayer go in much more often than the priest's. That is not to mean I don't have a few beefs with the Quasi. For one, I think there should be a Theurge subby, which I suggested here, toward the end of the thread. The true disadvantage of the class are the -1 to caster level and having 1 less school of magic than normal class, that is, 4 schools for and arcane, 3 for a divine theurge. The extra -1 you get from having to get the lesser class' ability raises as pre-epic is overkill, which is what I tried to counter with that subby. Some of the items are sub-optimal. I only use the thanatos theurge robes for now, since losing 1 SP from fist wrap doesn't justify itself imo, in exchange for 2 spells/level (+14 to wis does not signify). Sleep immunity is nice, but not really hard to get, and since you should stay way back from combat, not really necessary. For another, number of spell slots sucks. Not being able to use some items (mostly thid/abo bracers) and having to equip items for the non-CC to have an even halfway decent number of spells slots hurts a lot, specially at levels 3 and 8. In general, quasi does it pretty well, thank you. I consider my theurge the most powerful of my 3 active demi wizards. If not for utility considerations, I would take it over the loot mage anywhere, if not for lock-opening considerations, and the pally splash one, which I take mostly on new runs or weak/small party runs. Take care Kaezar
|
|