Dragon Shape - LFF absurd size & other problems

[desocupado]

Well, everyone agrees that the dragon shape is annoying due to the absurd size with LFF. It really should at least stay the same size of the non-Legendary Shape (which is already big enough).

Now onto other issues:

Fighting-wise, Dragons mostly inferior to Outsider's Leonal:
Leonal has more bonus to AB and AC, 1 extra attack, translation of all weapon buffs. Dragons have 2 less AB and 5 less AC (due size and less shield ac) but they are Uni and have better bonuses to tumble and parry.

The passive elemental melee bonuses are really weak compared to a weapon buff i.e. 7d6 < +4d12 (per weapon buff).
This damage should be either irresistible or greatly increased (1+LFF d20 is decent if it isn't getting weapon buffs translation)

[Yojimbo]

I understand the logic behind the size but it is a problem for most of the members in the party with the dragon. I don't know what would be a good solution but if something can be done I think everyone would be happy. I don't know much about shifter forms to comment on the AB and AC difference between the two forms to know if the other gains of the form outweigh the lose of the AB and AC. I think giving the dragon forms a respectable melee damage could go a long way and I think not letting it stack with buffs and using a formula similar to the one Deso gives would seem fitting. I know that most shifter forms don't do a lot of melee but this form seems to be one that could do well to have its own damage that would be decent but still inferior to most tanks.

[redbeard]

When you talk about balancing dragons against leonal, you can't limit yourself to melee. Dragons have a strong breath weapon and a KD/Gust attack with the wing buffet. I can't remember what leonal has, but you have to add the non-melee benefits to the equation.

[Werehound Silverfang]

Dragons can have incredible AB, and consequently, damage output on top of their incredible tanking power. Their size can be extremely useful in rough Asmo fights when the party needs to regroup while the dragon tanks.

I did Malb-Nessus with a drago shifter that was Disarming PFs extremely well, and the only one that beat it in damage was the damage caster.

If you're going to focus on a melee dragon, then focus on a melee dragon; don't spread your focus through excess forms.

[tyranlthixis]

This has been brought up before. The answer always has been it is a form benefit/disadvantage depending on how you look at it. There is logic to the size increase....the larger the dragon the more powerful its abilities. That makes sense. Dragon really is not the best tanking form for shifters, nor was it ever designed to be. With parry investment, however, it can be a fairly sturdy unitank. With melee alone can achieve moderate damage output. The breath weapon, however, can allow it to up its damage considerably..

Dragons already have

Excellent tanking ability
Powerful breath weapon
The ability to switch elemental damage at will
Wing buffet crowd control knowdown ability
Wing buffet wind killing power

and in some cases the huge size can be a good thing.....

All of the above make a dragon form shifter a highly desirable form focus to have that is almost always welcome in a party.

[desocupado]

The urgent issue, in my opnion is the excessive size. It's usually annoying.

Well, I took Leonal as an example, because it is the strongest overall melee shape (AC & AB) and I have a shifter with outsider, and it kicks ass morphed and weapon buffed.
Dragon's have as much AB as Risen Lord and as much AC as Drow. However these two have MUCH more damage due to weapon buff translation and extra attack.

That being said, Dragon are supposed to have elemental versatility. The true tank shapes described above get weapon buff translation and extra attack, so Dragons could fit their elemental role better if they had high melee elemental damage to be able to contribute against High Reflex mobs with evasion with specific vulnerabilities without getting the weapon buffs.

One must remember that Red Blue Green and White dragons have elemental weakness against mobs that are likely to take more damage from their elemental i.e. respectively Cold Acid Electrical and Fire, this also limits a bit more their tank potential (which is fair).

[simpetar]

Aug 30, 2011 0:34:02 GMT desocupado said:

Dragon's have as much AB as Risen Lord and as much AC as Drow. However these two have MUCH more damage due to weapon buff translation and extra attack.

I ran some maths about dragons considering their AB. That is, if you want a tanking dragon build, as I assume tanking is what you are talking about here. Correct me please if I got it wrong:

16 pre epic (with 4 T1 splash)
10 epic
15 LBAB (with the dragon gloves)
20 magic cap
8 foci
2 craft weapon (dragon claws do get the bonus)
35 strength
-2 size

104

Now this is closer to what Werehound writes about disarming PFs, and not bad at all. Maybe it was hard to get the full +20 cap for you? As for bonus attacks from Risen Lord and Drow: if you squeeze in 1 level of monk, you suddenly have at least the same number of attacks per round as they do, and with 3 iteration instead of 5.

simpetar

[fallenwizard]

Yeah as per Simp says, dragon can be powerful form for non shifters (4x tier 1 splash + monk for attacks). I think Shakua had a monster druid/paladin/monk that ran with divine might and 100+ AB, but that was quite a while ago, back when div might was still irresistable. Not sure if she still have it.

Also T1K has a great melee shunt-bot dragon druid that has succesfully tanked 4man cania.

As for the size, sure it can be annoying at times, you have to unshift to fit in some doorways, but also, it can be used as blocking enemies from casters, what a tank is supposed to do, isnt it?

I know not everyone use HG exe /rooj's hg exe that both allow you to zoom much further out. But ever since I started to use these (first Acaos' original and later Rooj's arrow lag/partylist bug fix version) I havent had any problems targeting spells/abilities on targets around dragons.

[chirality]

Just wanted to throw in my two cents: I definitely agree with redbeard and Tyran's points about the breath weapon and wing buffet. Both of these abilities are awesome, and while the wing buffet is definitely more specialized, it is still great. The breath attack is extremely good, in my opinioin--don't discount the power of it, especially in certain situations where it can make short work of mobs that nearly any other build has trouble with.

Also, like the others say: Although I do agree that the absurdly large collision can be a "big" pain, it can also be really, really useful. I certainly haven't seen it used in the Asmo fight myself, but in the small portion of HG that I have played in, I can definitely vouch for a giant tank of giant size being useful.

Ultimately, when it comes down to it, the situation is more or less as Tyran describes: Despite any drawbacks, this form is more than welcome in any party. I would say that a pretty good litmus test of the "power" of anything on HG is how popular and well-recieved by the population it is (that line of reasoning can open a whole can of worms but I'm trying to speak generally here). If the players of HG didn't think dragon form was worth the drawbacks of large size, etc. then it likely wouldn't see nearly as much use. As it stands, Tyran broke it down about as succinctly as possible and I don't think there's much argument to be made to the contrary (I don't intend that to come out as an attack, by any means .

[desocupado]

Aug 30, 2011 9:54:35 GMT fallenwizard said:

I know not everyone use HG exe /rooj's hg exe that both allow you to zoom much further out. But ever since I started to use these (first Acaos' original and later Rooj's arrow lag/partylist bug fix version) I havent had any problems targeting spells/abilities on targets around dragons.

Blame my linux client

Aug 30, 2011 7:29:05 GMT simpetar said:

+2 craft weapon (dragon claws do get the bonus)
104

Well i did some test in test chamber, with Legendary Form Focus and this is false (logic: as they get extra attack form monk progression, they can't use craft weapon for more AB), unless URO claws change this (which I doubt).
The testing was using !list ab, looking the number (that doesn't include craft weapon) and comparing to actual ab hitting dummy. On a funny side note, !list ab doesn't include magic AB bonuses from weapons when using unnarmed shapes.


Well, it's just that dragon feels kinda boring for a shifter (well at least i find all other options better/morei nteresting for LFF), while it's very good for allowing the Dragon Druid. Maybe shifter could get the melee damage based on level to make the choice more attractive. But all in all I agree that dragon is pretty good.

[tyranlthixis]

I'm not sure if people realize this but it is possible to make a melee shifter with a different form focus, especially with the recent combat changes to shifters. Humanoid, Construct, Undead, and Outsider are all viable to some degree....though some of those options are painfully boring to play.. I think Sabre still has her Construct meleer.... Corin ;D

[CataclysmicDeath]

I currently have a Shifter Tank running around hHells, it uses Humanoid.

I think it has only Humanoid and Wildshape LFF 3 and no other focuses. Other Tank Form shifters are most definitely viable.

Cata