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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 19, 2011 20:54:16 GMT
This thread is for discussion of statting of XR (eXtremely Rare) subraces - the category above BUR, which will be spawning exclusively (or nearly exclusively) in Elder Evil areas. We need to work out a rough framework of what the subraces should stat out at - as compared to BUR subs. They should allow 2 additional in the subrace's targeted classes prime requistite, for certain, but no more - we don't want them deviating by more than 1 ability modifier in dc, ab, ac, etc. Past that, we're flexible - suggest away. If you plan to make XR subrace suggestions, please do so in the XR Subrace Suggestion thread. Funky |
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Post by darc on Sept 19, 2011 21:09:54 GMT
I did a little analysis of this when trying to think up new humaniod races, for interest sake here's a basic breakdown of the standard formulas:
I used the following criteria for stat point selection based on the current Secret/UR/BUR race stats:
Secret +0 to +2 net stats (most exisitng races are 0)
UR +4 to +6 net stats (most exisitng races are 6)
BUR +6 to +14 net stats (most existing races are 10)
XR could go +8 to +16 (with most falling at 12)
Secret average max stat +2, if higher then countered by a negative stat of the same amount
UR average max stat was +4, if greater than 4 then always countered by a net increase of only +4 or less
BUR usually had +6 to main stat and if it had more than +10 to net stats overall the it had enough negative mods to take it back down to 10 (main exception was Undying but it didn't get more than +4 to main stat)
XR could have an average max stat of 8 with a max net increase of 12
-or play with the numbers a little if that's too low. I'm really not familiar with the power level of mobs and spells etc, I haven't been following those threads.
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Post by chirality on Sept 19, 2011 23:04:27 GMT
Not really sure where else to go with this...what more are you looking for as far as guidelines? I have several ideas already for subrace possibilities--meaning suggested features for a couple--but obviously that needs to wait until the other thread is unlocked.
It seems like you have an idea already of what the "cap" should be for attribute bonuses...are you wanting more complex special abilities suggested? Or some ruled out now? I can't think of too much in the way of "new" features that BURs don't already have; simply improving what they have to a reasonable point seems all I can offer. Of course the point of this thread is to determine what's reasonable...but beyond the apparent steps in power already between secret, R, UR, and BUR (as Darc pointed out with attributes) I certainly have no idea what would be "too much".
What are some things that you *don't* want? What would be too extreme, other than what you've said already for attributes?
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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 19, 2011 23:14:05 GMT
What are some things that you *don't* want? What would be too extreme, other than what you've said already for attributes? Mainly, I don't want people asking me the very question I'm posing in this thread to begin with.  Funky |
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Post by arek on Sept 19, 2011 23:29:27 GMT
It would be nice to know the current guidelines regarding feats, immunities, survival abilities, and appearance customizations. This would give us something to work with when throwing out ideas for feats and such. :-)
On another note, was the feasibility of the "Protean" subrace ever determined (if something along those lines might be feasible, I may have an idea for XR "subraces")?
--Arek
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Post by rainwalker on Sept 20, 2011 15:30:06 GMT
What about ability tokens or special abilities given to subrace?
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Post by wollstonecraft on Sept 20, 2011 16:15:58 GMT
XR? I was hoping for Ultra Beyond Ultra Rare. UBUR would be a perfect accronym if ever there was one.  -WSCraft |
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Sept 20, 2011 17:23:54 GMT
Actually... There are 19 Secret Subraces, averaging +1.74 to net stats, and gaining an average +1.37/+.93 of feats/abilities. There are 17 UR Subraces averaging +5.12 to net stats, and gaining an average of +1.47/+1.92 feats/abilities. There are 35 BUR Subraces Averaging +11.00 to net stats, and gaining an average of +3.04/+1.68 feats/abilites. For my calculations... - For every 10% immunity gained to a damage type, +1 ability was added.
- Survival Abilities count as +1 ability.
- Feats are counted as normal.
- For every +5 to a skill, +1 ability was counted.
- Any added immunities count as +1 ability.
- Detrimental effects (Speed: slow, inability to use certain sized items, damage vuln by 10%, inability to train certain skills) count as -1 ability.
- Spell Resistance is not counted as an additive effect.
- Bonus speed is not counted as an additive effect.
- Regeneration is not counted as an additive effect.
- Undying gets a lot of bonuses, as such, its +ability score would be massive, (+60 to skills by 60, no xp penalty). It was given an ability modifier of +7.
Also, the following races have the following subrace rarity access: | Race | Open | Secret | UR | BUR | | Dwarf | 8 | 0 | 2 | 3 | | Elf | 9 | 2 | 1 | 4 | | Gnome | 5 | 0 | 2 | 2 | | Half-Elf | 6 | 1 | 3 | 4 | | Halfling | 4 | 1 | 1 | 2 | | Half-Orc | 3 | 1 | 1 | 2 | | Human | 18 | 7 | 3 | 5 | | ANY | 0 | 7 | 4 | 13 | | Total | 53 | 19 | 17 | 35 |
[/color][/table] Based off of this, I feel... - The emphasis of subraces should be on the subraces with less variety, specifically Dwarf, Gnome, and Half-Orc.
- These races are used for building very specific classes, with little variance.
- I don't think any more than 2 XR "Any" races should be created, given the huge number of "Any" BUR races.
- XR Subraces should, on average and assuming a root progression, gain +13 to abilities, with a standard deviation of 2.5 (some gain +10-11, others gain +15-16)
- XR Subraces should gain a plethora of new abilities, with a minimum of three, unless they are obvious outliers in either feats or statistics.
- Skill increases would be extremely useful here, as these often time limit builds to certain races. This could greatly increase the variety of builds from these races.
- Miscellaneous Immunities and Damage Immunities would be great here.
- Open up extremely specific immunities here, such as:
- +75% damage immunities
- Immunity to Internal damage (Thinking maybe a Warforged subrace)
- Physical or Mental Domination immunity.
- Specific Spell immunities - Low abilitiy value, for groups of spells
- Large boost to ability checks, but low ability modifier, etc...
- XR Subraces should all get a minimum of two feats, unless they are obvious outliers in either abilities or statistics.
Must get to class. Will finish ideas later. Please comment. I'm trying for as comprehensive an analysis as I can. Will be getting into base-race/class combos later, based off of forums. |
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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 20, 2011 17:54:30 GMT
Nice analysis, Were. This:
is a given.
I'm interested in more than strict progression, though it's definitely necessary as a starting point. That is to say, it's open to debate whether they should be closer to BURs than BURs are to URs - I think further is out of the question. Bear in mind also that XR subs will likely have steep reqs - an 80 to use, and an xp cost to boot. On the flip side, they can't add too much power, to prevent them from creating large power gaps.
Funky
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Post by kite on Sept 20, 2011 19:18:16 GMT
Net stats of +12, give or take depending on feats/abilities, looks like a good progression from BUR to me.
I think that feats and abilities are where the XR races should shine compared to BUR, allowing builds more flexibility. Would epic feats, particularly for caster races, be over powered?
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Post by redbeard on Sept 20, 2011 20:25:19 GMT
Would epic feats, particularly for caster races, be over powered? There are several BUR races that give ESF in various skills or EWF in various weapons. The ones that give EWF also give WF. Several BUR races get GSF in various spell schools, and get the SF also. I don't think they would be overpowered as long as all the pre-requisite feats are also included and you don't go over the feat limit (to be decided). Giving just Epic Spell Focus would be overpowered. |
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Post by KnightErrant on Sept 20, 2011 22:32:04 GMT
Some formula along the lines of
+8 +6
+8 +4 +4
+8 +4 +2 +2 +2
+6 +4 +4 +2 +2 tho I can't see many getting excited about a XR without a +8.
Also +8 Con would seem to be much less useful compared to about any other +8 stat-(Unless your a Pariah)
4 Free Feats -(Within reason)
2 Abilities ?
Maybe give each one a special ability outside the normal available stuff.
A few Ideas off the top of my head:
Ability to add wings of choice.
Ability to !gateset-(as if you had LSF gate)- once per day without having the spell.
Ability to get full STR bonus from any Bow or Sling you use (Mighty equals your total Strength mod).
Ability to choose any 1 LSA at level 41.
Ability to Sneak Attack from farther away.
Ability to See all invisible walls.
KE.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 20, 2011 23:00:00 GMT
+6 +4 +4 +2 +2 tho I can't see many getting excited about a XR without a +8. That's why subs that don't get a max bump for their range get more ability points overall - not the same as those that do, as your example shows. Funky |
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Post by tyranlthixis on Sept 21, 2011 1:37:48 GMT
[/li][li]XR Subraces should all get a minimum of two feats, unless they are obvious outliers in either abilities or statistics. [/list] Must get to class. Will finish ideas later. Please comment. I'm trying for as comprehensive an analysis as I can. Will be getting into base-race/class combos later, based off of forums.[/quote] I like this idea more than just a straight power creep via stats. I'd rather have access to race with BUR like stats with a slight upgrade and something that makes the race truely unique. A couple of the open subraces capture this nicely (etheralness, elemental immunities, specific immunities). What came to mind was Baldur's Gate child of Bhaal idea.....that is your not just a half - planar, but actually have some inherent powers associated with being a child of ________. Child of Asmodeus....hi dad I'm here to take your throne... We could then draw the racial uniqueness from from those deities abilities/home plane etc. Maybe things like no area penalties in certain areas or a more favorable ring rest situation in the Abyss. Anything that would make the race more versatile and interesting and not just better for X build. Additionally I think there should be an anything race that is a shape-shifter of sorts. Something with balanced stats and more importantly access to a wide range of appearances. Doppleganger remains very popular solely based on the Badger Quest. I also urge to make these very rare. Subraces have a different demand curve than other gear and I think we made mistakes with the drop rate on BUR races when they first came out...and much after that really. Every character can use armor/weapons/items, but once a race is obtained you don't need too many copies to exhaust them. |
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Post by arek on Sept 21, 2011 1:45:58 GMT
Given what I've seen regarding stats, I think +14 is a good balance point, with up to +18 possible with a low/wide enough stat distribution. Given that, here are some example distributions:
+8, +6
+8, +4, +2
+8, +2, +2, +2
+6, +6, +4
+6, +4, +4, +2
+4, +4, +4, +2, +2, +2
For feats/abilities, given what I've seen, a maximum of 4 feats, with 2 at most being Epic, along with 1-2 other abilities (survival, %imms, SR, save bonus, etc) seems about right. As mentioned above, Epic Spell Focus should include and count Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus.
Class Feats (like Aura of Courage or Evasion) should probably count as Epic feats. Of course, not all Class Feats should be available. :-)
--Arek
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