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Post by Torin on Dec 7, 2011 21:56:24 GMT
Bad, fighters get a bonus feat at level 36 and the next at level 38. At level 37, they get nothing. You can take one level less in favor for one Paladin feat that give disease immunity.
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Post by Bad on Dec 7, 2011 22:39:25 GMT
Made all the corrections needed, thank you to all those who helped me make this build even better.
Bad
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Post by vorshlumpf on Dec 8, 2011 0:04:57 GMT
Regarding your question on Discipline I can see how that could be confusing, what I meant was that you would get 50 discipline from gear and song plus 15 points from str. thus putting you at 65 this build can not afford any more skills as is. Fair enough. To combat confusion, I'd suggest making that explicit. Skill point allocation is the only thing so far that has confused me when using any of the builds on this forum. You currently write it like this: Since the 60 and 46 refer to actual skill ranks, I'd suggest something like this: Regarding taking skills on level ups: Because this build is so skill tight I wanted to avoid operator error as much as possible thus took Tumble and Parry dumps at 40 (The only place I could think of a disp check pre LL was the Lolth fight.) Then again I took a final Tumble Dump at 57 to get them exactly 60 in that skill and leave as many points as possible for Parry which with gear song etc would just get to the magic 120. Unfortunately, that means the player is missing out on the benefits of higher AC and lower crit damage until level 40. I understand your concern, however, so I suggest this: make a skill progression table and offer it as an optional tool for those players who feel comfortable doling out skill points as they progress. I've done such tables for my toons after significantly bungling my Shadowdancer's skills, so I could easily do one up for you (I plan to create a template, anyway, for the builds I hope to put on the forum this month). Let me know - I can get you the table within a couple of days. One more bit of feedback, since this build is wonderfully geared towards total newbies. When you take Great Wisdom I, it may seem odd and out-of-place after taking so much strength and dex. To head off any potential confusion, perhaps a quick reasoning behind it, such as: - Niilo
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Post by Bad on Dec 8, 2011 0:19:36 GMT
Hey Niilo,
I like it will work on that tonight tyvm for the toughtful input.
Bad
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Post by Bad on Dec 8, 2011 2:57:15 GMT
OK Torin, will take another look at it tonight ty.
Bad
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Post by the1kobra on Dec 8, 2011 4:12:12 GMT
To note, going 36/3/1 will result in an XP penalty, Bugbears have FC: Fighter, Rogue, BC: Barbarian, which means the 3/1 pal/monk split will cause an XP penalty. Can be worked with but it could be nasty for a new player. The levels could be modified so that you only drop a pre-epic feat (IMPR Power attack seems the most likely candidate), but I don't like the XP penalty.
You could go 36/2/2. Monk 2 doesn't really add much though, it gets deflect arrows but the character is likely better off with a shield, torch, or dual wielding most of the time. It does get an early tumbledump and earlier monk WIS AC, which could help while levelling the character up through epic levels, but at the end won't provide much.
Personally, I'd make the recommendation to have IMPR power attack swapped out to weapon focus with a ranged weapon. With the character's high Strength and Dexterity, both longbow and throwing axes should be nice, and there are plenty of situations where having the ranged-sidearm can be very very useful.
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Post by Bad on Dec 8, 2011 5:49:42 GMT
Thank you again for the input guys . @ Niilo: I agree with your reasoning and changed the discipline comment to read as you suggested. Also added an explanation of the Wisdom I feat which btw adds 1 more AC as well as 1 will save. I would happily take you up on an optional table for skill boosts. @ Torin: I tested it again tonight taking Pally at 37 still netted you one less feat, so I would say that it would be best to take that level in pre-epic levels where there is some feat flexibility. Though the XP pens which I had not thought about (Thank you the1kobra) is the biggest issue. I once played a character with xp pens and it dragged bad. Plus with paragon levels coming out soon trying to slog though 125 mil xp would be a huge issue for new players. Thus I think that players who read these posts can make that choice on their own (They can choose to change the build)and know in advance that they would get the xp pens.. I really did like your idea and if it was not for the xp pens. issue would have tried to squeeze that in somehow. the1kobra: I think it is a very intriguing suggestion to take a weapon focus in bow or axes, I am leaning toward throwing axes as this leaves the door open to using a shield and still doing damage if everything looks very bleak indeed. Plus now that I have thought about it, a new player who could get their hands on some Uro blood could get the Cleave feat for free and thus take Weapon Focus Throwing Axes and Greater Weapon Focus Throwing Axes. Once again I am glad you guys like the build and am happy with any input I get on it. Bad Edit: After doing a bit of looking I will add notes to the build that if a player can acquire a Uro Blood, they should use that to get their Cleave feat. Leaving them free to take Parry and Improved Parry replacing Improved Power Attack. And giving them: Greater Parry! Quote: Greater Feats: At Fighter 41, characters gain greater versions of the Disarm, Knockdown, and Parry feats for free, if they have the Improved version of the matching feat. Greater Parry (requires Improved Parry feat): Using the Greater Parry ability will make you invincible for 1 round per 10 fighter levels, including legendary levels. May be used once per day and is a swift action. (Btw, does anyone know if this is a 24 hour day or 1 time per rest day?)
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Post by Torin on Dec 8, 2011 6:26:41 GMT
Looks like my english is not good enough here. I give it a last try: From the nwnwiki for fighters: "Bonus feats: The epic fighter gains a bonus feat every two levels after 20th. In other words, at levels 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, 38, and 40. " Therefore, 37 Fighter, 2 Paladin, 1 Monk gets an epic fighter feat at fighter level 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36 (8 epic fighter feats in total). Compared to: 36 Fighter, 3 Paladin, 1 Monk gets an epic fighter feat at fighter level 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36 (8 epic fighter feats in total). Same number of epic fighter feats, but with the 3th Paladin level for disease immunity. I suggest to take all 40 character level in the test chamber. As for XP penalty, well, I never pay attention to that. But its an argument for sure.
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Post by vorshlumpf on Dec 8, 2011 7:35:33 GMT
Putting together an automated spreadsheet now and hit this: The Original build got 2 skill points until LL Levels then 1 skill point in LLs so 106 points total thus Tumble 60 and Parry 46. Is this as expected? From the wiki: Characters gain their normal allotment of skill points for every legendary level, including racial and intelligence bonuses. That implies, to me, that you should continue receiving the same number of skill points during LLs. Perhaps this is a bug to report to Funky?
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Post by chirality on Dec 8, 2011 8:53:30 GMT
(Btw, does anyone know if this is a 24 hour day or 1 time per rest day?) Rest. Or I think I'm interpreting correctly what you mean by 24 hour day? Either way, 1/rest.
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Post by vorshlumpf on Dec 8, 2011 8:57:36 GMT
Big fat post coming up! Below is the table code spewed by my spreadsheet. Below that is what you see once you paste it into your post and save it. Now that I have my automated spreadsheet set up, I can change the entire spew in seconds if you decide to change the class or skill progression (such as buying those last 3 parry points before the last 17 tumble points). If you would prefer a different format, let me know - it wouldn't be hard to change my scripting (I plan to add extra formatting styles anyway - my next one will include the skill totals in adjacent columns). - Niilo [table][tr][td][b]Level[/b][/td][td][b]Skills[/b][/td][/tr][tr][td][center]1[/center][/td][td]Parry +4 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]2[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]3[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]4[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]5[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]6[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]7[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]8[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]9[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]10[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]11[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]12[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]13[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]14[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]15[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]16[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]17[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]18[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]19[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]20[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]21[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]22[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]23[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]24[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]25[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]26[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]27[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]28[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]29[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]30[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]31[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]32[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]33[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]34[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]35[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]36[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]37[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]38[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]39[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]40[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 Tumble +43 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]41[/center][/td][td] [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]42[/center][/td][td] [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]43[/center][/td][td]Tumble +3 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]44[/center][/td][td]Tumble +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]45[/center][/td][td]Tumble +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]46[/center][/td][td]Tumble +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]47[/center][/td][td]Tumble +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]48[/center][/td][td]Tumble +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]49[/center][/td][td]Tumble +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]50[/center][/td][td]Tumble +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]51[/center][/td][td]Tumble +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]52[/center][/td][td]Tumble +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]53[/center][/td][td]Tumble +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]54[/center][/td][td]Tumble +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]55[/center][/td][td]Tumble +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]56[/center][/td][td]Tumble +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]57[/center][/td][td]Tumble +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]58[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]59[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][tr][td][center]60[/center][/td][td]Parry +1 [/td][/tr][/table] Level | Skills | 1 | Parry +4
| 2 | Parry +1
| 3 | Parry +1
| 4 | Parry +1
| 5 | Parry +1
| 6 | Parry +1
| 7 | Parry +1
| 8 | Parry +1
| 9 | Parry +1
| 10 | Parry +1
| 11 | Parry +1
| 12 | Parry +1
| 13 | Parry +1
| 14 | Parry +1
| 15 | Parry +1
| 16 | Parry +1
| 17 | Parry +1
| 18 | Parry +1
| 19 | Parry +1
| 20 | Parry +1
| 21 | Parry +1
| 22 | Parry +1
| 23 | Parry +1
| 24 | Parry +1
| 25 | Parry +1
| 26 | Parry +1
| 27 | Parry +1
| 28 | Parry +1
| 29 | Parry +1
| 30 | Parry +1
| 31 | Parry +1
| 32 | Parry +1
| 33 | Parry +1
| 34 | Parry +1
| 35 | Parry +1
| 36 | Parry +1
| 37 | Parry +1
| 38 | Parry +1
| 39 | Parry +1
| 40 | Parry +1 Tumble +43
| 41 | | 42 | | 43 | Tumble +3
| 44 | Tumble +1
| 45 | Tumble +1
| 46 | Tumble +1
| 47 | Tumble +1
| 48 | Tumble +1
| 49 | Tumble +1
| 50 | Tumble +1
| 51 | Tumble +1
| 52 | Tumble +1
| 53 | Tumble +1
| 54 | Tumble +1
| 55 | Tumble +1
| 56 | Tumble +1
| 57 | Tumble +1
| 58 | Parry +1
| 59 | Parry +1
| 60 | Parry +1
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Post by Torin on Dec 8, 2011 9:24:20 GMT
In the test chamber there is also a newer option to level 60. THERE it should be tested how many skillpoints past 40 are given.
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Post by fallenwizard on Dec 8, 2011 9:51:51 GMT
Yeah I made a mistake with the skill thing - I kinda forgot that orignal build "cheats" on skill points having more than it should via minimums. Adding first 4 points to int wont give any additional skillpoints to use due high penalty. Must say it is pretty sad but thats how the engine works, doesnt matter if you have 5 or 9 int, you get as many skill points on class with base 2/level. So yeah, propably better to keep it 16 dex and 10 con at creation.
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Post by Bad on Dec 8, 2011 19:01:33 GMT
Once again thank you for your comments: 1. I Added The Uro Blood option (It would be really nice to have the invincibility option for 5 round per rest.) 2. Added Niilo's table to give players the option to take skills on level up and not wait on skill dumps. (Thank you Niilo) @niilo: ty for the table (Re: skills I went by what I got in the test chamber). Torin: I know that you would like to see this build be the best that it can be, and so do I . Thus I will give this another try in test chamber. (Btw, I always use the test chamber and do level to 60 for a serious look at what the level 60 outcome will be.) My main issue is the xp pens though, this has the potential to really hurt a beginning player on their first character. @ Fallen: I am glad you think so too Fallen. Thank you again for your interest in the build and hope to see a few more Uber Bugbears out there. Bad
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Post by chirality on Dec 11, 2011 10:50:05 GMT
Haven't really been paying attention last several days and maybe the contest is already over and/or maybe already you finalized this build but, just wanted to say: As Torin pointed out last fighter feat is at 36 so I don't see anything lost vs. a third pally level, while disease immunity is gained. Ok sure it's not "true" or "arti level" or whatever you want to call it but it's nice, and why not have it? So I would do 3 pal instead, unless there is something I'm not thinking of that the extra fighter level nets you. Edit: That said, on the other hand even 2 pal levels only gives the fear imm which is nice but let's be honest, even in hardcore I don't have trouble fitting fear into my gear setups, and the main selling point of Aura Of Courage is the "true" part which has been mentioned many times here on the forums as being very good but I still don't know what it is actually needed for? I believe Abyss? Either way I highly doubt the "true" fear imm will be noticed vs. "normal" fear imm for a new player that isn't going to be squaring up with Deathknights on this toon. Yes the extra immune to not worry about from gear is nice (and yeah, I know fear is harder than most of the rest)......but.... 1 pal and 38 fighter levels nets one more feat. I'd have to look over the build again to see what I could do with +1 feat, but either way just wanted to point this option out.
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