Troubadour (Bard 39, Paladin 1)

[vorshlumpf]

Hi Xiayu,

I'm soon going to get the Siren subrace and I want to shore up a build so that I can get going immediately and reach immortality within 36 hours! (give or take a month)

Your build is my favourite choice so far - I think it fits my desires closely. Other than changing the subrace I also want to max Lore because of the spells Treasure Scent and Know Vulnerabilities. I'd appreciate feedback (yours and anyone else's) on the changes needed to fit your build to those specifics.

Thanks!

- Niilo

The first difference is in the stats. Siren gets -4 CON compared to the Fire Gnome (FG), which hurts. The +2 DEX allows me to set that lower to help offset some. As well, the FG gets 1 more skill point per level (gnomes get +2 vs humans +1), so a higher INT would be nice. So, in order to get that INT, I need to reduce STR. How does this look?

Ability - Score after Subbie (Cost)
STR - 6 (0)
DEX - 14 (4)
CON - 12 (6)
WIS - 8 (0)
INT - 16 (10)
CHA - 18 (10)

I'm hoping 6 STR won't be debilitating for a support bard.

The only difference in feats is negligible: FG gets free SF (Illusion) but Siren gets a free feat so I just need to use it for the SF.

As I said, I want to max out my Lore mainly for those two spells. Is that too silly? Where do you think I should get the extra 33 points? Maybe take 5 away from Spellcraft (leaving 1) and 28 away from Pick Pocket (leaving 2)?

I was also thinking of switching up some spells to benefit from the high Lore. How do these changes sound? I've never played a bard on HG, so I'm not sure if I'm taking out something that is considered a necessity.

Level 2:
Add - Sound Burst; Know Vulnerabilities
Remove - Endure Elements; Clarity

Level 3:
Add - Treasure Scent
Remove - Hmmm.... Displacement?

Level 4:
Add - Shout
Remove - Either Summon Creature IV or Mass Cure Light Wounds

[Xiayu]

Hey,

First of all, thank you for showing interest in this build! I will try to answer your doubts/questions as best as I can.

Ability - Score after Subbie (Cost)
STR - 6 (0)
DEX - 14 (4)
CON - 12 (6)
WIS - 8 (0)
INT - 16 (10)
CHA - 18 (10)

I believe these are the best stats for a Siren support bard. Other choice would be dropping INT by 2 and getting either +2 CON or +2 DEX/STR. Depends on what you like, but I would recommend the one you listed.

I'm hoping 6 STR won't be debilitating for a support bard.

It won't be a problem, really. STR checks are mostly for knockdown, but you can use your transmutation epic (Unbown, Unbent, Unbroken) to be completely immune when needed. Having high STR/DEX score on a support bard is nice as it lets you save up some UUU uses, but it is not a requirement.

As I said, I want to max out my Lore mainly for those two spells. Is that too silly? Where do you think I should get the extra 33 points? Maybe take 5 away from Spellcraft (leaving 1) and 28 away from Pick Pocket (leaving 2)?

Keep in mind that you get "Bardic Knowledge" as a bard, it grants lore bonus equal to bard level (+39 with this build) and it stacks with +50 from gear.
50 gear + 39 = 89 + 8 int mod = 97 - would need +30 to hit 127 max lore, points over that would be to counter penalities or lack of gear.
If you wanted to maximize Lore skill, I would drop the 30 points from Craft Armor.

Level 2:
Add - Sound Burst; Know Vulnerabilities
Remove - Endure Elements; Clarity

I would change Clarity for Know Vulnerabilies, clarity is mostly useful in endgame runs anyway.
I don't think Sound Burst is worth it, 30d4 sonic and lore boosted, but if you wanted to get it for fun, I would probably drop Silence for it.

Level 3:
Add - Treasure Scent
Remove - Hmmm.... Displacement?

Definitely wouldn't drop displacement. Early on, your main source of concealment will be Ethereal Visage, but once you manage to get one of the bard specific armours (Uroboros, Maladomini, Azzagrat) you can use displacement instead to get 80/85% concealment while using those light armours and a shield, which means higher AC and even if you decided not to use them, you can still buff your team with 55% conceal, too useful to drop, in my opinion.
Keen Edge or Remove Curse/Disease are a better choice to drop for it. RC/RD are mostly used in endgame areas, so you don't really need to keep them for LL play, though there are a few LL runs where you can use it.

Level 4:
Add - Shout
Remove - Either Summon Creature IV or Mass Cure Light Wounds

Can definitely drop Summon Creature IV, since you have it at level 6 anyway. Main reason I took it was because I didn't find any of the other spells useful. Shout would be 30d6 and lore boosted, not that much damage and you might not have enough spell slots to spam it.
Another spell you might want to consider here is Break Enchantment, hard to say where you can use it in LL, but it might be helpful for hells (it removes bigby) and fits nicely on a support character.

Also you might want to consider Mass Haste at level 6, after the last update, it gives +2 attacks with GSF transmutation, +3 attacks with LSF transmutation, it lasts only 1 round but might be useful to use on tanks from time to time, especially against bosses. I would drop either Shades or Icestorm for it.

[vorshlumpf]

Wow, great feedback - thanks! It's people like you who make this such a great community.

I've got about 45% of the Maze mapped out now, so it's just a matter of time before I get that Siren. I so 'cited!

Keep in mind that you get "Bardic Knowledge" as a bard, it grants lore bonus equal to bard level (+39 with this build) and it stacks with +50 from gear.
50 gear + 39 = 89 + 8 int mod = 97 - would need +30 to hit 127 max lore, points over that would be to counter penalities or lack of gear.

Ah, yes. Thanks for pointing that out. I have yet to get close to the skill cap for anything, so I'm still new to the concept. There is also Legend Lore for +29 at level 40, and Identify for lowbie levels if I want to learn that spell temporarily for quick boosts (which I think I'll do). So 30 skill points in Lore is more than enough.

Thanks for sorting me out on the spell selections. You are probably right in that Sound Burst and Shout are not that great to have - I'll probably just keep them for the pre-epic and mid-epic levels. And thanks for pointing out Break Enchantment! I forgot that was a new spell and I really like the idea of having it (I like being a support player). And I had wondered about the usefulness of the new Mass Haste effect - in my experience a one-round boost to attacks didn't seem very useful, but I'll definitely try it out.

Thanks again!

- Niilo

[vorshlumpf]

Hi again,

I just put the skills through my spreadsheet. I think you're short one skill point for your build. Here is how I calculate it:

(Brd + INT)*4 = (4+2)*4 = 24
(Brd + INT)*58 = (4+2)*58 = 348
(Pal + INT) = 2+2 = 4
Bard Bonus * 59 = 1*59 = 59
Gnome Bonus * 60 = 2*60 = 120
24+348+4+59+120 = 555

Your final skill totals amount to 554 points.

Since my siren has a higher INT and the human bonus, I get 6 more skill points because of the x4 boost at level 1. It's not a lot, but what would you choose to put them into? I'm not sure if Craft Armour would be helped by it, but I'm thinking that or Pick Pockets or Lore.

I've planned out my skill progression differently from yours. I'd appreciate any feedback on my decisions.

- 1 point each for PP and Splc at level 1 (they are trained skills, so this allows me to use them with song and other bonuses).
- max Conc, Parry, Perf, Prsd, Tumb from start to finish; I put priority on Prsd over Disc because I've only ever had Disc checks starting at level 40 (that I am aware of) and I'd like to have this SR reduction ready for the 30+ tags.
- also max out CrA and UMD from the beginning, with them topping out at levels 27 and 17, respectively.
- start Disc at level 22 with it catching up to its max at level 39 (then keeping it maxed until the end).
- dump into PP at levels 40/41, bringing it to its assigned limit
- start Heal at level 41; it catches up to its max at level 56 (then keeping it maxed until the end).
- Splc gets the least amount of love, getting a few skill points between levels 56-58.

[Xiayu]

- 1 point each for PP and Splc at level 1 (they are trained skills, so this allows me to use them with song and other bonuses).
- max Conc, Parry, Perf, Prsd, Tumb from start to finish; I put priority on Prsd over Disc because I've only ever had Disc checks starting at level 40 (that I am aware of) and I'd like to have this SR reduction ready for the 30+ tags.
- also max out CrA and UMD from the beginning, with them topping out at levels 27 and 17, respectively.
- start Disc at level 22 with it catching up to its max at level 39 (then keeping it maxed until the end).
- dump into PP at levels 40/41, bringing it to its assigned limit
- start Heal at level 41; it catches up to its max at level 56 (then keeping it maxed until the end).
- Splc gets the least amount of love, getting a few skill points between levels 56-58.

I didn't get how you spent the points here, it seems like you are missing some.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry much about it, most skills aren't really required pre-legendary. At the end, you should have something like:

Skill Points (560):

Concentration 63
Discipline 63
Heal 63
Parry 63
Perform 63
Persuade 63
Tumble 63

- 441 cost, these are the skills you will want maxed out (can save 3 from tumble as it won't give anymore AC, but that's up to you)

The leftovers (119) are more of a personal choice:

Lore 30 (minimum to hit 127 lore fully buffed)
Craft Armor 30 (easily get +1 AC with just +10 from gear/mod)
Pick Pocket 30 (used to steal healing potions from enemies, DCs are around 40-60 I believe, though there are some place where you are fine with just 1 point)
Use Magic Device 24 (mostly to use mords scrolls, DC around 30-40, easily get it with cha mod/gear)
Spellcraft 5 (just to have counterspell as an option, check is 15+spell level)

[vorshlumpf]

Yeah, sorry, I see how confusing my skill summary was. In short, I met all the skill levels outlined in your build - I just got there differently from your level progression guide.

Thanks for the additional insight. I think I'll put 4 of my extra points in UMD and the rest in Lore.

- Niilo

[Raj]

Random bump because the build is one of the few old ones who are still updated and viable. Also saves me some typing in the bard guide

I wonder who this Xiuha girl is.