I have to disagree on the total inferiority of Chaos gomes, If you choose Enchantment as school you can grab a meta magic, maximize (if evocation) or empower (if using conjuration). I'd recomend Conjuration, Necromancy, Illusion and Enchantment as a viable alternative spread of spell schools in the case of chaos gnome.
Another tought is changing one school: Transmutation (excelent for bosses, bad for leveling, good in hells) -> Abjuration (good AC and resitances, handy spells).
This build already gets empower, for what it's worth.
With regards to picking maximise spell over empower spell if focusing in Evocation, I disagree, as you will be unable to apply it to delayed blast fireball and great thunderclap, which will severely limit your damage output.
The reason I say chaos Gnome is inferior is for two main reasons: One, Enchantment is a poor school in the vast majority of Legendary runs, and it's pretty poor in the Hells too unless you have a turner. Enchantment only truly comes into its own in the Abyss, and to an extent in Elysium and Aboleths. These aren't runs I'd expect many Chaos Gnome sorcerers to go on. Two, Chaos Gnomes are small size, and fashion accessory caster items are in general inferior and harder to find or gain access to. You also bar yourself from using an Ur Ward.
I disagree about the alternate schools. Conjuration is almost always a bad choice for a Sorcerer, in that there are too many spells you'd like to have and too few free slots in your book. What's more, it is a school that only truly shines in the abyss too - in general, orbs are poor in the hells due to levels of conceal, and evards is of limited use unless you're happy to recast it every time a Pit Fiend or a Malebranche jumps. Evocation is a much better value school for general damage dealing purposes, and also nets you two instakills (gust of wind, sunburst).
With regards to swapping Transmutation for Abjuration, again I disagree. Whilst I am not generally a fan of Transmutation, it is vastly more useful in the hells and most Legendary runs than Abjuration is. Again, Abjuration is more suited to Abyss, Elysium and Aboleths.
You have good points about enchant and I didn't see the empower at 24. Sorry, my mistake. Maybe (Evoc + Abj + Nec + Trans might work well for a newcomer, with energy immunity and extra AC and a good spread of spell levels). I'm insisting on this because my first caster had real trouble getting enough immunity to do the first runs and archers killed me all the time at mycho and desert. A good mage armor can really fix AC when you have only +10 robes avaliable. Also a +75% energy resistance helps a lot when starting a ring collection. Perhaps one could ditch the school after getting Raksha, around level 55, when reincarnating.
Last Edit: Mar 10, 2012 23:25:39 GMT by desocupado
[/li][li]Chaos Gnome: - UltraRare Subrace, Gnome. FCs: Bard. "Chaos Gnome" (secret UltraRare) - FC: Bard - base SR 15 +1/lvl, DEX +2, CHA +4, free feat: Spell Focus - Enchantment, free feat: Curse Song
*Note - Rakshasa is much superior to this race for a Sorcerer. Sadly, Sorcerers are not well catered for by Ultrarare races. [/quote]
desocupado said: I have to disagree on the total inferiority of Chaos gomes, If you choose Enchantment as school you can grab a meta magic, maximize (if evocation) or empower (if using conjuration). I'd recomend Conjuration, Necromancy, Illusion and Enchantment as a viable alternative spread of spell schools in the case of chaos gnome.
excruciator said: The reason I say chaos Gnome is inferior is for two main reasons: One, Enchantment is a poor school in the vast majority of Legendary runs, and it's pretty poor in the Hells too unless you have a turner. Enchantment only truly comes into its own in the Abyss, and to an extent in Elysium and Aboleths. These aren't runs I'd expect many Chaos Gnome sorcerers to go on. Two, Chaos Gnomes are small size, and fashion accessory caster items are in general inferior and harder to find or gain access to. You also bar yourself from using an Ur Ward.
I'm inclined to agree with desocupado. Compared to Rakshasa, Chaos Gnome gets +2 Dex,+1Con and a free feat. Even without changing spell focuses, the single enchant focus will improve the Greater Magic Weapon bonus. A lot of melee types are dependent on that. I'd also suggest dropping Keen Edge to pick up Greater Magic Weapon too. If you're the only caster in the party GMW often isn't optional. I guess a lot of builds in the forums are really only considering hells, but for an open subrace build I'd think that getting to that level would be important too.
I would say you are about equal between the two I would say if you want a UR Sorcerer Alethian Dwarf is probably the better option. You get +2 INT for skills and a +5 CHA to start with (+7 but Dwarf -2 Penalty negates 2 of it). You don't have as many feats as some options because you only get SF Trans but it is a fairly good school so its not a bad option.
I don't know.. Chaos gnomes bonuses aren't as appealing to me compared to Rakshasa. Rakshasa can be human, negating Chaos gnome's free feat. There's also the size issue, which means (as Excruciator mentioned) no Ur Ward. That alone is a small power bump. Yes CG gets +2 Dex, which means +1 AC, +1 reflex.. but again, no shield. So that doesn't make up for the loss of spell slots or whatever else an offhand can give you. Plus AC isn't really a concern for a arcane caster. If my buffs drop my AC and hit points are so low I'm going to be face down pretty soon anyways. A squishy caster's place is behind the tanks.. Waaay behind.
Concerning GMW... Respectfully, I have to say the small bump isn't worth it. Keen is more useful because of DB weapons, also your GMW with be +11(Correct if I'm wrong..) There's also an abundance of clerics you'll likely be running with when a player gets to the hells.(IoF) You'll get much more mileage out of Keen versus GMW. Unless you drop transmutation and go with enchantment of course. Which could work I guess.. personal choice comes into play there. Even so, Rak still comes out in the lead in my opinion.
Let's not forget Rakshasa is much easier to obtain..
Full disclosure : I have made this build with Rakshasa and I really wouldn't change a thing, short of going Rad gen.. My sorc is sitting mid 60s, and does the job in hells. So I am slightly biased here.
Just a note about the free feat. The Chaos Gnome gets both Enchantment and Illusion bonus feats. So it really is an extra feat. I've read other remarks where people seem not to know that happens. It seems you don't lose a base race bonus feat if a subrace gets another one. You get both.
There is a small caster shield which in base form gets more spells or at least more higher level spells at the cost of Time Stop from an item. You can get Time Stop Wands or collect Time Stop scrolls or with the right ingredient scribe Time Stop IIRC.
Chaos Gnome is inferior for the reasons mentioned. And keep in mind that comparing Rak vs. Chaos Gnome is 2 different sub tiers. After update which allows non-immo to enter "secret" area, a player can get "helped out" with "secret" subrace at extremely low levels; Rak translates into essentially a starter race now if you have a generous vet willing to help you. And even disregarding that change, it's obtainable far earlier in a player's career than a UR sub (as Fade pointed out). Sure, Chaos Gnome is so undesirable and UR books are so common that you could obtain one easily from any vet who has the book, probably for free (I know I'd give it away for nothing)--but it still needs level 50 to use, unlike Rak. I don't see any point at all in levelling a sorc to 50 to use a crappy UR sorc sub and reinc it when I'd consider even Yuan-Ti superior due to BC + medium size. Even if Rak isn't a viable option for "starter sorc", I would take Yuan-Ti over Chaos Gnome any day. As Fade mentions, sorc is very poorly-served with UR subs--although this isn't a bad thing in my opinion since it's more than made up for by being extremely well-served by open and secret subs (Yuan-Ti and Rak).
A better comparison would be Chaos Gnome vs. Aleithian, in which case Aleithian is a clear winner.
Chaos Gnome is meant for Bards is no surprise that it doesn't work well for Sorcerer when compared to a subrace designed for a Sorcerer even if that subrace is on a lower tier. I still contend they are closer to being equals in terms of power. I think the size bit is a bit overblown on the matter yes it does limit your choices in gear but the gear discrepancy is not that great.
The loss of the Tia Staff is probably the biggest loss but you can get the Stygia Fan as well other Sorcerer Fashion Accessories which are nice options including one which can be randomized allowing it as nearly as much power as the UR staves. Instead of The UR-Ward you can use Impasse of Impulse which offers more spell slots than The UR-Ward and only losing you the use of Time Stop which is easily supplemented via other gear if anyone even uses Time Stop from the shield. From what I can see the only thing possibly making The UR-Ward the shield for a Sorcerer/Wizard is that it has Time Stop on it beyond that the Impasse of Impulse is better. You only lose 1 L6 and 1 L7 slot but gain more total slots which with randomization can lead to many more high level slots. You do lose 5% exotic immunities it looks like but gain 5% to elements. The last big difference is Impasse of Impulse also gives you Shield Proficiency so once equipped you can swap out gear which is granting you the Shield Proficiency if you rely on that.
Yojimbo : I have to agree that at this point we're splitting hairs. Personally I do prefer Raks... Although the fan+Impasse looks like a good way to make it work for a small size sorc.
As a side note I do think Aleithian is an interesting alternative.. To make that work the feats may have to be juggled a little to read a different tome. Perhaps a necro tome or Illusion? Those would hurt slightly pre-40, but it's not a deal breaker in my opinion. An effective +5 to Charisma could free up a epic feat or legendary one. Plus.. You'd be a dwarf. Which has a coolness factor in my book. I mean who plays Sorcerer Dwarves? That's kinda unique to me, also I like dwarves.
The imms to me are a clear winner on Ur-Ward with the exo. The ele on impasse is nothing special since ele is a dime a dozen, and not only that but 10% has a greater chance to get nerfed down, whereas Ur-Ward 5% base imms tend to get messed with a lot less. The phys imms on impasse are better.
Ur-Ward has better slots. I don't consider TS to be worth anything but the slots are an improvement, especially for sorc with 50% bonus--comparing pre-rand, that's a net gain of +1 each 6s and 7s, for a total of 3 vs. 1 on Impasse (again, pre-rand comparison). Impasse low-level slots are worthless, especially after slot gear nerf means low-level slots are in abundance on everything else.
In the end randomization means that there isn't too great a difference between either one--it's all about which you have that has the best random.
Fans aren't bad but they're a lot less slots than class-specific staffs. Styg fan is a lot better than sussurus or dachy fan for this reason.
But I wouldn't expect someone with fan of the fates to be playing a chaos gnome sorc anyway.
Why wouldn't someone able to complete Stygia be a Chaos Gnome what BUR subs can you expect them to use and even UR subs don't drop that frequently in Hell so unless they went with a downgrade/change to Rak it is incredibly feasible for someone to reach Stygia and beyond before getting something better than Chaos Gnome. My bigger point on spell slots was randomization you have 1-7 plus 2x 8 & 9 for a total of 11 slots on the Impasse and Randomization could mean lots of high level slots or low level while the UR-Ward has 2x 6-9 for a total of 8 slots and both can be augmented equally. I don't have a UR-Ward but last I checked it didn't have Shield Proficiency. I am simply saying that while Rak is likely more preferable the over all power of the two races is more equal than the UR is inferior and that says a lot for how strong Rak is for a Secret race if it is equal to a UR even though it is a UR intended for a different class.
As usual there is confusion regarding my statement about using UR subs (any time I say that someone "wouldn't" be using sub X by point Y in their career, it's always "whoa whoa--who said you can't beat the game with a open sub!!!!!".
Which is not what I said at all.
I never said you CAN'T do ANY potion of the mod with ANY subrace.
I said I wouldn't EXPECT someone doing Stygia to BE USING Chaos Gnome.
I don't think any part of that claim needs to be further explained or defended; it's just common sense. I never said a Chaos Gnome sorc CAN'T do Styg.
As for UR books not dropping frequently in Hells, okay I'll take your word for it, but that's beside the point as they are EXTREMELY abundant and other than a few choice subs such as FA, most aren't worth anything at all and Chaos Gnome is so bad that I can't imagine anyone but a greedy miser wouldn't just GIVE one away for free to a newbie--again I certainly wouldn't expect payment for nearly any UR sub, especially not a very undesirable one. I don't even play normal mode and I've given UR subs away for free to normal mode newbies, simply because they're not doing anything but rotting away in bankchests and jeez if the kid wants to play with a new toy from the bargain thrift store, it's my pleasure to give it away free of charge.
Likewise, any vet that doesn't mind the "terrible hassle" of "secret area" surely should have no problem dragging a newbie for Rak--I understand many players, even longtime players, don't know their way around the "secret area" and dislike it intensely, but for anyone that doesn't, Rak is pretty easy to get for a friend.
As for Ur-Ward: I own several of them and I assure you they have Shield Prof. Or just check the Wiki if you don't trust me.
I don't understand your point with the slots, at all, but it's not worth arguing about.
Likewise the subrace isn't worth arguing about since I completely agree with your concluding comments--very well said.
Anyway I don't understand why this thread was necro-posted back into argument a year after the build's creator already addressed deso's argument about Chaos Gnome. Really if you want to argue about gear and subs then make your own build and you can even call it "Red Mage--Chaos Gnome version" if you want to make it clear that you think new players should use Chaos Gnome for this build.
I mean to say you can expect a Chaos Gnome in those levels outside of the fact that for this build and for Hell you are better off with Rak, easier to obtain, or Alethian Dwarf, superior UR and equally obtainable, and that most Hell runners are Vets with BURs of equal or better power to a Rak or Alethian Dwarf with the ability to easily upgrade to an ideal BUR race should one be acquired. The main reasons you wouldn't expect it is that of the 3 choices someone able to make a Chaos Gnome would have 1 is equal though preferable and the other likely superior. I guess you may be right it isn't too reasonable to expect people to be running a Chaos Gnome but I do feel it is more probable than your statements seem to imply.