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Post by tyranlthixis on Feb 23, 2012 15:49:15 GMT
Powerword kill and bestow curse are necromancy for palemasters, so barring Div should have no affects. There should be no issue here. If div is still having an impact on spells that are necromancy for palemasters I would start a new thread and ask for that to be changed because they are not divination spells in the same way that Greater magic weapon is a enchantment spell on this server.
Being able to use research crystals and late game specializations to gain access to spells that are blocked by other means just means there is an oversight. If you can memorize them (fine) but they should be dead weight in your spellbook. Counterspell burns the spell just like a regular cast. If you bar Abjuration and you are able to use mords....well that just doesn't make any sense. Nobody is saying you shouldn't be able to counterspell here if you bar Abjuration. But, you will have to memorize the spell you are counterspelling against instead of benefiting from a universal spell like mords. So, if you're counterspelling wierd you CAN memorize weird spells. There is no undo harm here by making the consequences of barring a school real.
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Post by uncanny on Feb 23, 2012 16:04:38 GMT
One other thing I'd like to verify: what about the epic spell? Should this be usable? I'd think not, given the school is barred; but wanted clarity on whether this is also considered a bug/not-working-as-intended?
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Post by tyranlthixis on Feb 23, 2012 16:09:25 GMT
I think this was brought up A LONG time ago..... and it was allowed so long as you have the feats.
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Post by desocupado on Feb 23, 2012 16:16:06 GMT
Div foci was specifically allowed for boosting PWK on PM to give them another option besides Trans for their book. Basically pushing diversity and "choices". Otherwise Trans was basically a shoe-in for epic wall (though actually you can stone 0SR mobs like machines and flesh Jelley, etc). -G Actually, it decrease building options, I'd prefer to have Evocation (Gust) and Transmutation (Flesh to stone) for spells rather than Divination. However I'm curious what's the oficial positioning.
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Post by Raj on Feb 24, 2012 9:13:57 GMT
As a personal note, barring abj is a bad idea anyway because being able to cast mords/breaches from memory saves you a lot of time compared to use scrolls/rods in caster-heavy runs and those spells work the same regardless of casterlev. As counter spells, they work just fine. However Mord is useless for debuffing without CL. Greater spell breach works fine as it doesn't relly on CL nor SR. Mord respects character level, not caster level.
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Post by chirality on Feb 24, 2012 14:08:28 GMT
As far as barred schools exploits, I believe just going by Tyran's original advice is the best idea...if it's still working, it just hasn't been addressed yet...I dunno about the epics at the moment but last I heard a friend learned (from a DM I believe) that access-to-epic-from-barred-school would be fixed so his build was "worthless" and he moved on (no reinc in -HC- ) (this was an arcane theurge who can easily bar a useless school but still have the feats for the useful epic. Another example from the boards here would be the Shapestrong one-handed-merc-gsword...I doubt anything has been done about this yet, and likely won't be any time soon, but the point is, if you find something, don't plan on capitalizing on it because if it becomes noticeable and problematic enough it will be fixed and you're looking at a brick wall.
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Post by chirality on Feb 24, 2012 14:20:35 GMT
Div foci was specifically allowed for boosting PWK on PM to give them another option besides Trans for their book. Basically pushing diversity and "choices". Otherwise Trans was basically a shoe-in for epic wall (though actually you can stone 0SR mobs like machines and flesh Jelley, etc). -G Actually, it decrease building options, I'd prefer to have Evocation (Gust) and Transmutation (Flesh to stone) for spells rather than Divination. However I'm curious what's the oficial positioning. Although I think I see why you feel this way I have to say that this definitely *does* increase rather than decrease. Your reasoning (I think?) is that PWK is a necessity nowadays, thus Div is a necessity, thus rather than opening up an otherwise-useless school to PMs (who previously had a no-brainer choice), this is in fact turning that school into the no-brainer choice. Well, can't you see that the very fact that you're saying "I'd rather have Evo or Trans", yet you desire Div-boosted PWK so much, points out that stuff like this give MORE options rather than reduce them? This is saying "I have a hard time picking between this and that because there are aspects of both that I want" rather than "welpp, this one wins hands-down". Less option, less build variety. More equally-legitamate options, more build variety. Good thing. Powerword kill and bestow curse are necromancy for palemasters, so barring Div should have no affects. There should be no issue here. If div is still having an impact on spells that are necromancy for palemasters I would start a new thread and ask for that to be changed because they are not divination spells in the same way that Greater magic weapon is a enchantment spell on this server. Being able to use research crystals and late game specializations to gain access to spells that are blocked by other means just means there is an oversight. If you can memorize them (fine) but they should be dead weight in your spellbook. Counterspell burns the spell just like a regular cast. If you bar Abjuration and you are able to use mords....well that just doesn't make any sense. Nobody is saying you shouldn't be able to counterspell here if you bar Abjuration. But, you will have to memorize the spell you are counterspelling against instead of benefiting from a universal spell like mords. So, if you're counterspelling wierd you CAN memorize weird spells. There is no undo harm here by making the consequences of barring a school real. I disagree here. I think it should be an issue, and I don't think that you should be able to do *anything* with a barred school. I don't think that Div foci should be changed to Nec for PMs' PWK, because it's great how it is, where the spell is treated as nec (a huge concession so it's usable) yet the boosting school is Div, requiring some tough build decisions. Same with a bunch of other spells. This pisses me off when I'm building casters, but despite me personally disliking not being able to make perfect toons, it's great. Like I said I believe this type of thing increases option and variety, and from a pure balance standpoint it is also quite reasonable. I love this aspect of HG, where certain spells require foci from other schools to be optimized. This doesn't mean the spell itself should be treated as actually being of the empowering school (ofcourse PM PWK is a different case, but it's the same effect overall with Div there). I don't think using epics, counterspelling, using items, or anything else should be possible with barred schools. It's not about HG documentation; it's about the "spirit" of the mechanic. And, luckily enough for us, it works out great for the game because of the beneficial effects on balance, build variety, and lessened-ability-to-make-a-toon-that-does-it-all. Of course arcanes are that already but let's not get sidetracked
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Post by tyranlthixis on Feb 24, 2012 14:38:03 GMT
You can still take feats in Div. You just can't cast normal spells. Epic spells are investment spells, so they don't fall into a particular spell school for actual casting purposes (they scale to level in class and not to foci in said school...you just need epic spell focus to qualify). If build diversity was the original reasoning for requiring div for PWK (Div vs Trans wall), that dynamic may no longer exist. There may be much more incentive to invest in paragon spells in a number of schools, so pigeonholing pale masters into Div is going to start detracting from build diversity. Trans may no longer be the only other natural "other school" now for palemasters and for legitimate reasons this time. That is why the issue should be looked at again, since all of the other schools never considered previously by palemasters could be very competitive now.
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Post by desocupado on Feb 24, 2012 14:55:45 GMT
You can still take feats in Div. You just can't cast normal spells. Epic spells are investment spells, so they don't fall into a particular spell school for actual casting purposes (they scale to level in class and not to foci in said school...you just need epic spell focus to qualify). If build diversity was the original reasoning for requiring div for PWK (Div vs Trans wall), that dynamic may no longer exist. There may be much more incentive to invest in paragon spells in a number of schools, so pigeonholing pale masters into Div is going to start detracting from build diversity. Trans may no longer be the only other natural "other school" now for palemasters and for legitimate reasons this time. That is why the issue should be looked at again, since all of the other schools never considered previously by palemasters could be very competitive now. So barring Div is ok Well, can't you see that the very fact that you're saying "I'd rather have Evo or Trans", yet you desire Div-boosted PWK so much, points out that stuff like this give MORE options rather than reduce them? This is saying "I have a hard time picking between this and that because there are aspects of both that I want" rather than "welpp, this one wins hands-down". Less option, less build variety. More equally-legitamate options, more build variety. Good thing. I've got a Drow Noble, so I'll have Epic Div and Contingency. Also, I took Conj over Trans (a much more usable epic spell in my opinion, considering what Pms spell do). Tough I regret a bit not picking Evoc for the gust, but Gate is fun anyway. I'll be barring Enchantment and Divintation then. Thanks for the help.
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Post by tyranlthixis on Feb 24, 2012 15:00:40 GMT
Yes, I already recommended that.
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Post by desocupado on Feb 24, 2012 15:02:06 GMT
Yes, I already recommended that. My issue is that now I need a silence ring (and I was worried about Contigency)
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 24, 2012 17:04:13 GMT
Can we get an official and detailed list of what barring schools is supposed to disallow? Is it meant to block using foci to improve spells of a different school? (Like Ench/GMW, Div/PWK for PM, etc)? Is it meant to prevent casting epic spells from that school? (It currently does not) It would help to know what is and what isn't considered "exploiting" here. It's not meant to disallow using spell foci to improve other schools. It SHOULD probably prevent gaining and using the epic and legendary spell, however. I'll consult with the Team on that. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 24, 2012 21:20:20 GMT
After a quick consultation with the Team, you may now no longer cast epic/paragon spells in your barred school, in the next update.
Funky
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Post by desocupado on Feb 24, 2012 21:52:08 GMT
After a quick consultation with the Team, you may now no longer cast epic/paragon spells in your barred school, in the next update. Funky Ow well, one less feat then... Should'ved went with Evo and Enchant instead. :/ At least it's official.
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Post by millivanilli on Feb 24, 2012 23:06:05 GMT
After a quick consultation with the Team, you may now no longer cast epic/paragon spells in your barred school, in the next update. Funky Ouch!
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