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Post by vorshlumpf on May 16, 2012 0:18:57 GMT
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Post by chammernick on May 16, 2012 1:12:42 GMT
Personally i would suggest Blue only becuz of the fact that few good elec immun Bur rings and likely hood of getting ur rings covered is slim, better chance of surviving with a harder immun to cover already covered imo, if not blue then definately black or green since pf kb is acid, but male kb is elec so its really ur call just my 2 pence
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Post by Crazy on May 16, 2012 1:57:46 GMT
I would advise against a RDD as a HC character, or a character in general. Comparatively they are a rather weak class. You will never reach the AB you want because they aren't a full BAB class. In the drow, you'll be swinging at air, in LL areas you will have very low damage in level appropriate areas.
If you want to make an RDD for the 'cool' factor of being a little dragon, sure, they aren't necessarily deadweight. Green/Blue would be the best general choice (Acid/Elec imm).
If your looking to make an effective HC tank that can hold their own defensively and offensively, make a Barbarian.
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Post by chirality on May 16, 2012 3:04:22 GMT
I would have to agree with Crazy's "bleak reality" point.
Sadly, especially after the two-hander damage boost, you're basically looking at a situation where, it's not that any tank is worse than before, but some are just so much better, that you'd have to be satisfying your own personal desires of cool-factor, uniqueness-factor, or "prove it cane be done" if you don't make things that aren't obviously at the top of the heap.
That said, any xDD built properly will be no pushover, will hold it's own, and will excel at tanking, where other types may not as much.
Johann's build that you referenced (by the way, don't expect a response from him any time soon regarding color choice--he's on an indefinite hiatus, and although I have a feeling he will return eventually [they all do!] I would put money on it not being in the near future) did quite well and I would like to mention my observations regarding it after spending a lot of time partying with that toon. I'm sure some of this would apply equally and universally to non-splash (i.e. xDD CC) builds:
It was a very good tank. Very sturdy, and about the only time he would go down was in a situation where he became flat-footed due to being stoned, Dom'd, etc., although I also recall that other than certain mobs which had the perfect damage types to defeat his defensiveness, he actually lasted a while while getting beaten on KD'd, dom'd etc. However this is not as much a weakness to the build or to xDDs, but more just something that pretty much any tank is going to have trouble with (many exceptions of course, although not very many available with hardcore limitations, and your currently-available time- and gear-constraints moreso). In fact, due to not relying "as much" on Tumble and Dex AC as many other tank builds, it served him well. That said, in order to maximize AC in "optimal" situations (i.e., not being disabled) he preferred to take maximal advantage of Dex mod and wear medium armor over heavy which ultimately can make quite a difference. I believe a viable alternative to "his" build would be to drop Dex, take a hit on overall AC, and aim more for soaking damage by boosting Con/hp, and benefiting from heavy plate armor. Of course there's an inherent tradeoff there as well, that of being more susceptible to Dex checks, which his toon handled quite well. Very nice for a non-killer uni-esque tank, and unlike many awesome builds out there, he wasn't totally reliant on the perfect gear to to his job--something worth a lot in hardcore.
However, his toon was definitely not a damage-dealer (or "killer" as I call it) tank, and I recall that as he levelled up, got closer to finishing the toon off, and dealing with runs and mobs where efficient threat disposal becomes nearly as, or more, important than taking hits, he became gradually less satisfied with its/his performance. I would note though that while he may have been looking via green eyes at my fighter dishing out nice damage and huge crits (admittedly even with a slashing weapon which I have a tendency to decry, while he used bludg, which would have served far better had he made it further into Hells), I was similarly envious of his ability to "uni" stuff, whereas my fighter was having to turn tail and run from anything that threatened a Dex check. So, it's a trade-off, although he was convinced he could have tweaked the build in order to produce greater offense without sacrificing too much defense. I will think a bit and try to recall the conversations we had regarding build discussion/improvement for his toon, although possibilities should be obvious especially for any vets out there reading this.
Anyway, in my opinion the bottom line is that this will not be very satisfactory when it comes to offense, and however satisfactory at defense it is, the fact is that barb, as Crazy pointed out, will likely outperform in both departments. Staffy as well.
I'm more than happy to help with creating an xDD build to suit your desires/"needs" and I know you aren't one to back off a build/class simply because "it's not the best thing around to exploit update X, and buff Y, while avoiding the detriment of nerf Z", so by all means give it a shot. The "other" "bottom line" is that I know you, personally, at least won't be disappointed whatever the end result.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 11:23:48 GMT
I would agree with crazy but you did ask about xdd so...
The unitank xdd build is really solid. No, you won't be dishing out damage but you will often be the last one standing that can rez the others. Ideally, a good xdd can tank pretty much everything in the mod. I am sure there is a good reason, but off the top of my head I am not sure why the BG splash instead of a pally splash. BG gives the minor sneak attack, but pally gives fear imm, poison imm etc.
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Post by chainlink on May 16, 2012 12:31:30 GMT
I'm happy with my RDD (yes I went Red) build, 1 Sorc (scroll use without the chance of a UMD failure), 9 Pally (more HPs), 50 RDD. I toyed with going Unitank but I have a Ftr and an AA built that way so I thought I'd go primary Str build. Mine shrugs off a lot of stuff but I do have the advantage of it being Half Guardinal base so have a nice list of innate immunities and bonuses -
Petrification imm - Half-Guardinal Sleep imm - Half-Guardinal Fear imm - Paladin Disease imm - Paladin Sneak Attack imm - XDD Evasion - Half-Guardinal True Seeing - XDD Absolute Fire immunity - RDD Epic Energy Resist Cold I - Half-Guardinal Epic Energy Resist Acid I - Half-Guardinal 25% Elec Immune - Half-Guardinal
I use a Greatsword and have Overwhelming and Devastating Critical in it to max damage against non-crit immunes.
All saves well over 60 at level 60
Skills Disc - max Listen - max Parry - max Craft Weapon - max Craft Armor - near max by 60 Tumble - 30 points for max ac bonus Concentration 20 points
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Post by Yojimbo on May 16, 2012 12:38:28 GMT
I agree that an xDD is not a great damage dealer it is a solid easy to build tank with slightly less dependence on gear. The xDD also brings a few nice bonuses to the table that help out the player and the party.
Here are some nice bonuses from an xDD in no particular order #1 w/ CON Arti breath attack inflicts 50% vulnerability of corresponding element. #2 Dragon Fear Aura up to -3 to Attack, Skills, and Saves to enemies within the aura #3 Wing Buffet DC50 KD + Gust away enemy clouds
Defensively the xDD is strong getting +10 AC and still able to get an additional +6 from tumble for +4 AC over normal STR tanks. They get SR of 70 which is enough to actually resist some magic entirely in many parts of the game. They have one of the highest HP due to +10 CON and 9-10x Epic Toughness feats. They have absolute immunity to a single element of their corresponding color.
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Post by tomaan on May 16, 2012 17:51:11 GMT
I'm actually a fan of xDD, but, as others mentioned, if you're looking forr damage output or offense/defensive balance, you'd be better off with a Barby or maybe COT.
That said, you an use Graz'zt's Abyssal Helm (spear) or Plate of the Legendary Master (Great Axe) to get OC/DC on your weapon and use the extra feats to add STR (damage and AB), Dex (AC), or Battle Hardening (damage resistance per the Prismatic Abilities[/i] build).
Lastly -- I thought the CON arti increased breath weapon damage to d20? Is it the vulnerability per Yojimbo above, both or neither?
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Post by Yojimbo on May 16, 2012 18:57:04 GMT
I was using the wiki so I am not sure if any one has a CON Arti Dragon could test but would make since as the CON Arti on other toons does a Fire Breath and inflicts Fire vulnerability so I could see it adding that and it might be both.
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Post by simpetar on May 16, 2012 20:42:00 GMT
Con arti will automatically merge with your dragon breath, in terms of cooldown and color. In other words, every time you use your breath, it will apply the con arti effect (infliction).
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Post by vorshlumpf on May 17, 2012 0:09:00 GMT
Thanks, everyone, for your feedback! I appreciate your concern that such a character may be underwhelming, especially for Hard Core play. You've really got me thinking. Chirality knows me fairly well, at this point, and, yes, I don't mind making a sub-optimal character. I do, afterall, have a goblin specialist wizard And I'm also planning on making a yukio (yuck-io) arcane archer... My main incentive: - I have the dragon-blooded race and would like to use it (that's about it, really) Secondary incentive: - I have never played a full-out dragon disciple (I have a barbarian right now who is part WDD, and a DSM, but that's it) and the prestige class intrigues me more than any other Maybe I should have fun with a STR tank, as chainlink outlined. When I get a better race I can try out the uni-tank idea, if I still want to play a dragon disciple at that point. Chainlink, would you mind sending me the output of a "!list levels" for your RDD, and maybe your starting stats? That would be more than enough to get me on my way. My main problem is that I am overwhelmed by all of the build considerations on Higher Ground mixed with my lack of knowledge of RDDs. I appreciate that, Chirality. What do you think of modeling a STR build off chainlink's character? I can put together the build and have you critique it. - Niilo
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Post by vorshlumpf on May 29, 2012 22:01:05 GMT
Hi again, I've started making my own build for a STR XDD. By "my own", I mean I've taken MightyKhan's "Black Hearted Dragon" as a base and converted it to a dragonblooded subbie. I'd appreciate any feedback on improving it in general or making it more suitable to HC play. The 60-level progression is below (I have not TEST chambered it yet). Some specific points I could use help with: 1) Bard vs Sorc: Bard gives more skill points, but then you need to burn them on UMD. I'm not sure if 4 Brd / 6 Blk is better than 1 Sor / 9 Blk. Edit: Bard gives easier access to Tumble; I think that tips it toward Bard pretty decisively. 2) Blackguard vs Paladin: Fear immunity would be nice, but I'm thinking Blk is the better choice for this build (no Good issues; crit immune item). I'm not 100% convinced yet, though. 3) I'll probably go Black or Green for the acid immunity. Not sure if that makes the most sense for HC play, but acid is the element that's given me the most trouble so far. 4) Weapon choice: I really like the idea of playing around with two-handed damage, and this build gives me the chance to do that for 39 levels before growing in size. My choice reflects two things: flavour and mathematics. I've wanted a greataxe toon for a while, and my damage/swing calculations put it in the top three of all large weapons (tied with Greatsword and Heavy Flail). I'd appreciate advice on taking other weapons, though. Of course, I have close to no knowledge of the availability of certain high-level versions of these weapons. The only 35th level, large weapon I have banked is a trident, but mathematically that poor weapon barely beats out the worst option: quarterstaff (mind you, that is the overall outlook, but the trident actually ties for second when fighting mobs that are hard to hit - maybe I should see how it looks...). I do understand that bludgeoning damage (Heavy Flail) can be useful on some runs. And the Halberd, tied with Falchion for 4th place, has two damage types, which is appealing. For that matter, I also really like the flavour of cleaving through enemies with a Falchion. Hmm.... 5) Skills: Other than the required skills for prestige classes, I have these skills (put in the order I prioritized them): Disc 63 Parry 63 Tumble 30 UMD 23 Prsd 63 Lstn 63 CrW 63 CrA 33 I really like the idea of being able to reduce the SR of enemies while I'm holding the front lines, so that's why I put such value on Prsd. However, I would like CrA to be maxed, and I would like some Concentration. I have two options: let myself become convinced that Prsd is not that important for an HC tank and put those 63 points into maxing CrA and getting 33 Conc or increase my INT by 2 (maybe completely dump my WIS?) and get 63 points that way. At the moment, I don't think depending on the 60 skill points acquired during paragon levels is good idea, but maybe that's the result of my WIS score being so low... 6) Any other thoughts or considerations would be great. Thanks for reading this far! - Niilo Abilities (at start with base race / after Dragonblooded adjustments / base scores at 60) STR 16 / 18 / 58 DEX 14 / 14 / 14 CON 12 / 14 / 24 INT 12 / 14 / 20 WIS 10 / 8 / 8 CHA 12 / 14 / 20 Level | Class | Ability Choice | Feat Selection | Misc Notes | 1 | Brd (1) | | Slippery Soul Power Attack | | 2 | RDD (1) | | | | 3 | RDD (2) | | Cleave | STR +2 | 4 | RDD (3) | STR | | Draconic Armor +1 Dragon Breath | 5 | RDD (4) | | | STR +2 Hit Die Increase (d8) Absolute Immunity (10%) | 6 | RDD (5) | | Weapon Focus (Greataxe) | Absolute Immunity (20%) | 7 | RDD (6) | | | Draconic Armor +2 Hit Die Increase (d10) Absolute Immunity (30%) | 8 | RDD (7) | STR | | CON +2 Absolute Immunity (40%) | 9 | RDD (8) | | Great Cleave | Absolute Immunity (50%) | 10 | RDD (9) | | | Draconic Armor +3 INT +2 Absolute Immunity (60%) | 11 | RDD (10) | | | Dragon Breath Improves Absolute Immunity (70%) | 12 | Brd (2) | STR | Improved Critical (Greataxe) | | 13 | Blk (1) | | | | 14 | Blk (2) | | | | 15 | Blk (3) | | Divine Might | | 16 | Blk (4) | STR | | | 17 | Blk (5) | | | | 18 | Blk (6) | | Blind Fight | | 19 | Brd (3) | | | | 20 | Brd (4) | STR | | | 21 | RDD (11) | | Epic Prowess | Absolute Immunity (80%) | 22 | RDD (12) | | | Draconic Armor +4 Absolute Immunity (90%) | 23 | RDD (13) | | | Absolute Immunity (100%) | 24 | RDD (14) | STR | Epic Toughness I Epic Toughness II | | 25 | RDD (15) | | | Draconic Armor +5 STR +2 | 26 | RDD (16) | | | | 27 | RDD (17) | | Epic Toughness III | | 28 | RDD (18) | STR | Epic Toughness IV | Draconic Armor +6 | 29 | RDD (19) | | | | 30 | RDD (20) | | Epic Toughness V | STR/CON/INT +2 True Sight Immunity to Sneak Attacks Spell Resistance = 20+RDD level | 31 | RDD (21) | | | Draconic Armor +7 | 32 | RDD (22) | STR | Epic Toughness VI | | 33 | RDD (23) | | Epic Toughness VII | | 34 | RDD (24) | | | Draconic Armor +8 | 35 | RDD (25) | | | STR +2 | 36 | RDD (26) | STR | Epic Toughness VIII Epic Toughness IX | | 37 | RDD (27) | | | Draconic Armor +9 | 38 | RDD (28) | | | | 39 | RDD (29) | | Epic Weapon Focus (Greataxe) | | 40 | RDD (30) | STR | Epic Toughness X | STR/CON/CHA +2 Wing Buffet Dragonfear Aura Draconic Size | 41 | RDD (31) | | | | 42 | RDD (32) | STR | Legendary Weapon Focus (Greataxe) | | 43 | RDD (33) | | | | 44 | RDD (34) | STR | | | 45 | RDD (35) | | Armor Skin | STR +2 | 46 | RDD (36) | STR | | | 47 | RDD (37) | | | | 48 | RDD (38) | STR | Overwhelming Critical (Greataxe) | | 49 | RDD (39) | | | | 50 | RDD (40) | STR | | STR/CON/INT +2 | 51 | RDD (41) | | Devastating Critical (Greataxe) | | 52 | RDD (42) | STR | | | 53 | RDD (43) | | | | 54 | RDD (44) | STR | Legendary Slippery Soul Epic Skill Focus: Listen | | 55 | RDD (45) | | | STR +2 | 56 | RDD (46) | STR | | | 57 | RDD (47) | | Greater Weapon Focus | | 58 | RDD (48) | STR | | | 59 | RDD (49) | | | | 60 | RDD (50) | STR | Power Critical (Greataxe) | STR/CON/CHA +2 |
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Post by the1kobra on May 29, 2012 22:37:32 GMT
Okay, my take: Drop 2 off of WIS, you don't need WIS. Put it in CON, INT, or CHA.
Slippery Soul isn't really that good for this character. RDDs with a pally/BG splash get really good saving throws anyways with the RDD's boosts to CHA. Saves calculation without it is:
1/4/4 (Bard) 5/2/2 (BG) 7/3/7 (RDD) 41/41/41 (epic/LL/gear/statgear) 11/11/11 (CHA) 7/2/-1 (Stats)
72/63/64, at L60, +12 stat gear, +20 saves gear
AKA, -easily- good enough.
Better picks for the pre-epic feat are: Divine Might, Greater Weapon Focus, heck even divine shield could save your life in a pinch if you're freshly rezzed and you don't have time for your party to buff you. Better picks for the legendary feat are: ... err... not sure, could even go for perfect health, add some nice immunities on top of the RDD ones. Could also go with the choices above, they're all pretty nice.
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Post by vorshlumpf on May 30, 2012 1:28:33 GMT
Thanks for taking a look, the1kobra! I agree, I should completely dump WIS. If I put that in INT, then I can have full CrA and 33 Conc.
Good point on the saves, and thanks for throwing up the numbers. As for replacements, I'm thinking Divine Might over GWF. I should probably respect the extra +1 to hit from GWF, but resistance/immunity-bypassing divine damage seems pretty awesome. If I understand it correctly, at level 60 I can use it 14 times per day to get +11 divine damage and it lasts for 11 rounds. I would have to take this feat at level 15 or 18, and push the other earlier (except Great Cleave, which needs 4 BAB).
The legendary replacement... I can't take Perfect Health. It needs CON 25, which I could easily do but doesn't seem worth it. But, again, I haven't experienced the joys of most LL runs or any hells runs, so perhaps disease and poison immunity (and 60 HP) is worth -1 AB.
Is Epic damage reduction worth it? That I can do, at level 60, and I suppose inherent damage reduction of 3/- is better than nothing.
The Wiki recommends boosting Listen, such as with Legendary skill focus: Listen. Is that still a sensible option?
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Post by vorshlumpf on May 30, 2012 2:21:57 GMT
I messed up my original copy from MightyKhan's. So Greater Weapon Focus is in there, now. Still need to decide on a replacement for Legendary Slippery Soul. And I took out the extra 10 LL feats
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