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Post by gandoron on Jun 19, 2012 15:14:13 GMT
The core fundamental issue is spell availability at a given moment, which sorc's own wiz's at. Sure my wiz can select from any spell, but to be useful in a run, I need to essentially fill and entire tier with 1 spell, maybe 2, other than buffs and a utility or 2. with random spawns I'm likely to have the wrong spells mem'd or just have the wrong balance. Needed more enervates or freezing spheres for that elite marilith.
Sorcs don't run into this due to spontaneous casting and have a massive advantage.
I think giving wiz's some type of spontaneous casting would be great. maybe make it something like cleric heal/inflict where wiz's get spontaneous casting in their spec school.
However, I'm also wary of having wiz's only parity features being tied to spec. Unless we can reduce the cost of spec, I'm not sure it's a feasible choice for most wizards.
-G
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Post by Michael Buble on Jun 19, 2012 19:57:43 GMT
So you're sort of saying if I understand you correctly that you'd like to have 1 spell per level that could be cast removing a spell that's already memorized but not yet used by the wizard.
(an I apologize I know the levels aren't right for the spells but as an example)
You're in Abyss: Wiz book has 2 PWK , 7 Thunderclaps, 3 Elemental Shields, 4 Enervate ready to cast in the spell book in that order. But the crazy Zen Ranger died from a random spawn and you really need to kill 3 Quasits that are sniping the heck out of you. You've already case the PWK's and it will take forever to kill them with Claps.
You'd like to have (and forgive the mechanic but let's go with this) the engine cast the spell from that level / 1st booked spell and start eating up the next spells memorized down the line. So in the example you'd still be able to cast 2 more PWK's but it would exhaust 2 Claps since they are next in line of the memorized spells.
This is somewhat similar to a Sorc but different enough because you'd only get 1 spell per level to over use instead of a Sorc's ability to be free will. And it would allow a Wiz to set up their spell book with the expectations of what might get sacrificed.
Not saying it's technically possible or not but I think that's how I'd envision it working, not too overpowered but helping Wizards by more useful. Maybe it's a special feat they have to take to allow the usage I donno.
Food for thought. Hope the examples made sense.
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Post by Yojimbo on Jun 19, 2012 21:14:29 GMT
He is saying 1 spell school and it would be tied to specialized schools which would work well if pure gets a free specialization. That would mean to cast that PWK and use Claps you would need to have either specialized in Divination or taken Divination as the free specialization and be a pure Wizard. That is at least how I read it and comparing it to the Cleric's ability to spontaneously cast heal spells just to help understand the process.
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Post by desocupado on Jun 19, 2012 21:25:38 GMT
Here's another way to incentive/improve specialization:
A wizard has a (%) chance to not spend a spell slot when casting spells from their specialization school(s). A chance above 50% would be great. Maybe a number like Wizard level/2 + Int mod or just plain Int score.
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Post by chirality on Jun 20, 2012 1:49:55 GMT
Some cool ideas here. I fully agree with some points made, in particular gand's analysis about how spontaneous casting in particular is extremely nice (or "powerful" depending on what you want to say"). In PnP sorc is mitigated by being unable to cast metamagic spells except as a full-round action. I'm not sure whether to say sorcs should be nerfed or wizards buffed or maybe a bit of both but honestly, the insane tactical advantages of spontaneous casting, plus the absurd bonus spell slots, plus channeling...anyway I think it's beyond debate that wizards need a buff if sorcs are to be left the same (which I'm fine with; just pointing out another option to balance it out, this goes along with the whole "casters are imba" thing which in my opinion is certainly attributed very much so to sorcs). I would definitely love to have something like gand's idea. In fact in PnP there is Spell Mastery which is basically a "given" feat for wiz, most take it on every (pre-epic) bonus feat slot because it's so nice. It is really such a defining feature of 3e wizard and so nice (I wouldn't go as far to say that it's overpowered) that I am surprised it was never incorporated into NWN and I would certainly love to see something like it on HG. That said any kind of buff would really be A-OK with me. I think something like the paragon bonus CLs (in spec school) would be nice and actually I would like to see even perhaps just a flat +1 up until paragon levels maybe? Channeling would still be vastly superior due to higher numbers when needed and compared to pure sorcs this would hardly be imbalanced as it's only 1 school vs. *everything*. I see some ideas regarding DC but to me DC is not really as much of a problem as SP is, perhaps now "more than ever" in some ways, even accounting for the recent Abj bonuses which by the way are really cool, anyway the biggest benefit of channeling as I see it isn't so much the DC (which is extremely nice I won't argue that) but more the SP bonus, I remember back when I started playing the "accepted knowledge" of the current situation was that wizards were pure and sorcs were (pal) splash and thus everyone talked about wiz has better SP than sorc, nowadays this is completely reversed, few people bother with pal splash (or if they do, seems mainly it's older toons, not making new ones, even in hardcore where the saves would be super-helpful it's unpopular due to reasons Enius [among others at various times] pointed out in this thread last year), anyway nowadays it seems to me that basically wiz is only for lootmage and sorc is the "real" caster, i.e. the real artillery and firepower, and coupled with pure channeling vs. splash wiz now it's the other way around and sorcs are the SP kings. Now do trends by players have anything to do with relative class balance? Not necessarily, but I'm just using this trend to illustrate that sorcs are much more powerful and pure or not have wizards beat in SP, pure or not I think, due to even splash sorc being able to channel still when needed/wanted, and as was pointed out in the past, the spell slot gear nerf certainly didn't kill channeling by providing extra slots for it... Anyway I would like to see some CL or SP improvement for wiz, I'd take it any way I can get it, restricted to specialized school sounds good enough I guess although I really think specialization could use a buff regardless just because it becomes more and more detrimental with each spells update to bar schools. I would like to see a version of Spell Mastery or something along the lines of gand's comments which surely strike true and although I don't play in deep high-demi parties in which I'm accustomed to "getting burned" by not having the right school for a given random, I have seen enough of different runs and been in enough situations that I can personally attest to this commentary, and finally one more note is that even regardless of pure tactical power, picking spells and even dealing with the spellbook at all is an extreme hassle for most people, I think many dislike wiz intensely for this reason alone, yes the !sb fill/empty commands are really great and I thank the devs for them every day but meh. This is just another facet of the game in which HG's awesome take on D&D has a quite different impact on class mechanics than in PnP, sure wizard was by design intended to be "weak when unprepared" etc. but really HG gameplay with randoms and just plain perpetually-changing situations even without randoms, this is a gaping hole in wiz casting mechanics, I think even without all the HG special sorc abilities, sorcs would be extremely powerful and more popular here just due to the supreme ability to bring "the right spell" when needed, sure maybe they don't even know "the perfect spell" like a wizard but this only looks good in theory and on paper, what's the point of knowing the perfect spell for each situation if odds are you will never have it ready to cast, while sorc may only know "a good spell" for each situation but can always access it as needed, and given massive slots and channeling there honestly doesn't seem to even be much need for "the perfect spell" anyway when you can spam emped spheres endlessly? Anyway not meaning to be a rant by any means, just my thoughts on the discussion, very interested in the topic and glad to see no "trolling" or derailing or argument yet, hopefully my post doesn't start any, thanks to all for your comments and I definitely like what I see
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Post by kingcamaro on Jun 20, 2012 9:40:43 GMT
imo, i dont think SP is the issue. the reason i like pure sorc, is obviously for the channeling, which also means i dont have to take necro focus for a slight boost.
wiz can take an extra school, taking necro would allow you to ED. landing 1 ED will put you the same as a pure sorc. +3 CL is all you can reach, weather from 3 ED's landing or 1 channel and 2 ED's.
my pure sorc, without necro, would mean for me to cast CL63 spells, id be burning 3 spells at a time, for a wiz with necro, they burn 3 EDs on a junk mob, and then they are at CL63 without having to burn more spells.
for the reasons i mention above, that is why i am proposing taking a spec for pure wiz, at no cost.
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Post by Michael Buble on Jun 20, 2012 11:07:11 GMT
Quite honestly I blame D&D for this mess. I can agree that a Sorc pulls their casting power from inert magic powers but only knows a few spells that he's found a way to tap into.
But the fact that a 300 year old Elf has to memorize magic missile every single day from his book and he's never ever going to be able to memorize it without looking at it and studying it in the book is just dumb.
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Post by vorshlumpf on Jun 20, 2012 18:54:48 GMT
Yes, the Jack Vance magic system is much-maligned, but that's D&D. I would definitely love to have something like gand's idea. In fact in PnP there is Spell Mastery which is basically a "given" feat for wiz, most take it on every (pre-epic) bonus feat slot because it's so nice. It is really such a defining feature of 3e wizard and so nice (I wouldn't go as far to say that it's overpowered) that I am surprised it was never incorporated into NWN and I would certainly love to see something like it on HG. I think you are mis-using Spell Mastery. As far as I can tell, it only allows a wizard to memorize a spell without needing their spell book. But they still need to memorize that specific spell. It doesn't allow spontaneous casting. Since there are no physical spell books in NWN, this feat would do nothing.
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Post by Yojimbo on Jun 20, 2012 22:53:02 GMT
Reading the description it sounds kinda like a way to memorize spells on the go which being able to swap out spells in your book would be handy on the go but I see no viable means to implement such a thing.
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Post by chirality on Jun 21, 2012 1:46:27 GMT
Right, I skipped ahead a bit on the logic train without making it obvious where I went with it.
I was thinking that since there is no physical spellbook in NWN the equivalent would be allowing some sort of spontaneous casting, without preparation, since the point of the PnP feat is to allow memorization without spellbook preparation.
I don't see a viable way to implement any such version of the feat nor a way to implement the 3e specialist ability of extra spells per day of the specced school (which if possible would go a long way on HG I think) but I didn't mean to say that, I just meant to use Spell Mastery as a kind of "precedent" for something like gand's idea.
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Post by aderwyn on Jun 21, 2012 21:02:26 GMT
I thought of an idea on how the selective spontaneous casting might be implemented - a book, like Still Sound is for bards but that uses spell slots of the appropriate level. Perhaps you would need to collect the books. Perhaps you could hold only a limited number (or even just one) at a time.
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Post by chirality on Jun 29, 2012 6:10:25 GMT
Don't want to make this theme overtired but I would like to see a +1 CL in spec school at, say, level 50, in addition to the possible ( ) paragon CL boost. I still don't think even +6 CLs at 80 would be too much given how bad spec hurts. I love the para bonus but also think that is a long time to wait for something that honestly should be a carrot far earlier. I also think that the main point of contention balance-wise is really only SP anyway as the CLs for spell enhancement purposes are hardly overwhelming (perhaps not underwhelming but certainly not overkill); so if an extra +1 SP is deemed too much then how about pre-para bonus being CL for everything but SP (if that's possible? maybe something simple like the classic added penalty trick--+1CL and -1 SP?). Also if this idea is reasonable maybe even more than just +1? Even as one eager to see pure spec wiz get some love I would be wary of treading too much on PM territory as far as huge SP boost goes, but again I hardly think +CL for another couple points of damage or longer-lasting buffs would be "too much". So maybe even another couple extra "non SP" CLs at reasonable intervals--I think starting at 41 would be nice. Also since it was brought up again recently in another thread I wanted to "bump" (in this thread) the desire for bonus slots in spec school *if this possible and reasonable zot-wise*. Honestly slots would be really nice but it seems as if the accepted reality is that sorc is and "should be" the slot master, so if trying to even the ground slot-wise isn't so desirable, then at least some other benefits of a different sort would be great. Thanks to devs for reading and I certainly don't intend to beg/whine/broken record. Edit: Also want to clarify that a bit of where I want to see potential changes go is just as much for generalist vs. spec and pure vs. lootmage, since sorc vs. wiz is pretty tired and it seems far more difficult to get agreement on. I think that while arguments against "sorc is too strong, wiz is too weak" have merit, those of a similar nature regarding spec or pure are likely much shakier and I am having trouble thinking of a buff to true wiz spec builds that would be too much. In fact much of the recent spec bonuses, and the arguments in favor of them, seem even aimed at wiz quasis (theurge and staffy) and AA with little or no realistic benefit for "real" wiz, and even then justifying pure wiz vs. splash is generally just as laughable as spec vs. generalist. Except for flavor or (I imagine) rare special-application builds it's just a given.
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Post by kingcamaro on Jun 29, 2012 12:15:46 GMT
you can't really give a CL bonus at lvl 50 wiz, because that is more reason imo to go splash. you could still get your CL 60 buffs as a lootmage without having to use a CL item. if however you mean pure wiz gets a CL bonus, then sure. i think perhaps at lvl 40, 60 and 80 for a total of +3
the spell pen thing, i dont really understand, pure sorc "kinda" get +1 bonus to SP, but weather channeling or EDing, can go to max of +3, same as pure wiz, so overall there is no difference in SP between the 2.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2012 12:51:37 GMT
How about (for wizards) simply extending the duration of the extra juice from ED and make ED an ability (like cleric wounding) that consumes a spell slot with each use- but a really low level spell slot.
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Post by chirality on Jun 29, 2012 13:39:04 GMT
you can't really give a CL bonus at lvl 50 wiz, because that is more reason imo to go splash. you could still get your CL 60 buffs as a lootmage without having to use a CL item. if however you mean pure wiz gets a CL bonus, then sure. i think perhaps at lvl 40, 60 and 80 for a total of +3 the spell pen thing, i dont really understand, pure sorc "kinda" get +1 bonus to SP, but weather channeling or EDing, can go to max of +3, same as pure wiz, so overall there is no difference in SP between the 2. Yes, that is what I mean; and eh, fair enough. Still though, ED vs. channel is a pretty huge difference. Considering tight slots, ED is extremely expensive for a wiz whereas channeling is a given (again, consider gear slot change), and of course the short duration, auto +1 for pure sorcs, etc. I'm not saying wiz should get the equivalent by all means. In that regard, over your idea is cool but I dunno. Sounds like basically a crappier, more slot-intensive version of channeling which makes no sense at all to me. Cool idea though Not sure what cleric wounding is though Anyway, just wanted to really do nothing more than bump an improved version of the para wiz spec CL bonus thing. Not interested very much in continuing debating the topic. As far as I'm concerned it served its purpose so let's see what happens.
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