|
Post by tomaan on Jun 30, 2012 13:40:49 GMT
I used to be very interested in politics, not so much any more. Only in so much as a historical thing. Politicians are corrupt in general and America is going into the toilet. Blame it on whatever party you want- I blame them all. Doesn't it suck to feel like that? I hate being a pessimist, but, given what we've seen over the last 20-30 years, you can't help but call politics in America toxic. The only difference: in addition to the parties, I think We, The People have to accept some responsibility for the current environment --- it's up to us to demand better/more from our political leaders. (and yes, I'm sure it's worse other places, but I don't live in those places)
|
|
|
Post by AuBricker on Jun 30, 2012 14:20:41 GMT
The US has it share of problems. Divisive political divides rack the system. Our infrastructure is decaying. We are laying waste to the environment. Racial animosity is rearing its ugly head.These are indeed troubling things.
On the other hand, the US has encountered these problems in the past and overcome them. The Founding Fathers spend much of their times at each others' throats. For example, Alexander Hamilton sought command of the US Army planing to use it to imprison members of Thomas Jefferson's Republican followers. In the past, rivers were capable of catching fire as a result of the pollution therein. There once existed a time when we possessed no infrastructure to decay. As for the sorry history of race relations, what more needs to be said? I remember the segregated schools of my childhood with disgust.
Am I overcome with hope? By no means. But things have improved in many respects.
There are still issues which cause me considerable concern. A rising tide of anti-intellectualism is sweeping across America, bring with it creationism, birtherism, truthers, anti-global warming claims, xenophobia, religious fundamentalism, misogyny, anti-contraception, and the like. I recall a right-wing Christian insisting I should be dismissed from teaching because I taught students that the Earth was over four billion-years-old and the basics of evolution. He claimed my job as a public school teacher required me to lead students in prayer and impart the tenets of Christianity. When I refused, he manufactured and disseminated untrue claims that I had been dismissed from the military for moral turpitude. (Silly me: I had thought it a sin to lie!)
Need I mention this clown was a conservative Republican? The anti-intellectual movement of which I spoke has engulfed much of the GOP. Sadly, the Republican Party of Lincoln, T. R. Roosevelt, La Follette, and so many other giants is dead.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2012 14:35:31 GMT
I used to be very interested in politics, not so much any more. Only in so much as a historical thing. Politicians are corrupt in general and America is going into the toilet. Blame it on whatever party you want- I blame them all. Does it suck to feel like that? I hate being a pessimist, but, given what we've seen over the last 20-30 years, you can't help but call politics in America toxic. The only difference: in addition to the parties, I think We, The People have to accept some responsibility for the current environment --- it's up to us to demand better/more from our political leaders. (and yes, I'm sure it's worse other places, but I don't live in those places) The saddest thing is that the "great experiment" has failed, utterly. People as a whole don't want to be sovereign individuals, they want to be lead. People like being told what to do. There being no new geographic frontiers, free-thinkers, pioneers, the truly creative and daring and independent have no where to go and are simply labeled "dumb malcontents" in America.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2012 14:46:17 GMT
The US has it share of problems. Divisive political divides rack the system. Our infrastructure is decaying. We are laying waste to the environment. Racial animosity is rearing its ugly head.These are indeed troubling things. On the other hand, the US has encountered these problems in the past and overcome them. The Founding Fathers spend much of their times at each others' throats. For example, Alexander Hamilton sought command of the US Army planing to use it to imprison members of Thomas Jefferson's Republican followers. In the past, rivers were capable of catching fire as a result of the pollution therein. There once existed a time when we possessed no infrastructure to decay. As for the sorry history of race relations, what more needs to be said? I remember the segregated schools of my childhood with disgust. Am I overcome with hope? By no means. But things have improved in many respects. There are still issues which cause me considerable concern. A rising tide of anti-intellectualism is sweeping across America, bring with it creationism, birtherism, truthers, anti-global warming claims, xenophobia, religious fundamentalism, misogyny, anti-contraception, and the like. I recall a right-wing Christian insisting I should be dismissed from teaching because I taught students that the Earth was over four billion-years-old and the basics of evolution. He claimed my job as a public school teacher required me to lead students in prayer and impart the tenets of Christianity. When I refused, he manufactured and disseminated untrue claims that I had been dismissed from the military for moral turpitude. (Silly me: I had thought it a sin to lie!) Need I mention this clown was a conservative Republican? The anti-intellectual movement of which I spoke has engulfed much of the GOP. Sadly, the Republican Party of Lincoln, T. R. Roosevelt, La Follette, and so many other giants is dead. One day a friend who fancied himself an intellectual (always asking curious questions) asked me this: "If you could say there are only two types of people in the world, what two types would you say there are"? My answer was this, "The two types of people in this world are the first type that believes there are only two types of people in the world, and the second type which believes there are more than two types of people in the world. I am of the second type". One-sided thinking is really, actually, cosmological. It is a paradigm that mankind has struggled to free its self of. That is the kind of thinking that there are two types of people, that one type is always wrong, to blame for everything, is essentially evil. You can tell when you have run a cross someone who is still in that one-dimensional world: there is a buzzword they use that is usually associated with everything bad. All evils in the world do not stem from the GOP, or christians, or conservatives, or liberals, or whites, or blacks, or anything. The reason why people need lead is because they cannot break away from one-dimensional thinking, as a whole. Just can't have a serious conversation with anyone who sees one side of anything as all bad, or the root of badness or anything. I've been fighting my whole life against that and I am tired of it. I've long retired from that arena to simply providing for, protecting, and teaching my own family. If it ever comes down to it, I'll stand with the ones who give me the most options (aka freedom), regardless of what they are labeled or what flag they fly. Freedom and options as in, not holding me back from creating my own options. I expect to be given nothing, in return, I expect to not be obliged to anything.
|
|
|
Post by AuBricker on Jun 30, 2012 15:41:22 GMT
Overdriver,
Well put, but we must never forget we are members of a community. Aristotle famously stated, "Man is by nature a political animal." Thus were born the political philosophers, and modern society is the heir to their legacy. Still, I prefer the wisdom of John Donne:
No man is an island, Entire of itself. Each is a piece of the continent, A part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less. As well as if a promontory were. As well as if a manor of thine own Or of thine friend's were. Each man's death diminishes me, For I am involved in mankind. Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls, It tolls for thee.
Perhaps it is time for us to turn away from the philosophers and to the poets for answers to some of the problems which bedevil us.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2012 19:29:14 GMT
^^^IMO the highest form of human community is a "cloud" community. Meaning that each person is self-sufficient in as much as they possibly can be and that community ethical standards are oriented around the central principle of self-sufficiency. One who produces a surplus of x trades x to another for y, which the other has produced a surplus of. We are not islands so much as individuals who need each other AS individuals, not as automatons filling some centrally planned role. But theres politics again. Bleh.
|
|
|
Post by vorshlumpf on Jul 1, 2012 2:21:02 GMT
I disagree with lumping all people into a pile of "those who only want to be lead". That's far too black/white. Certainly there are those that do (especially right-wing authoritarians*). And there are those who like to be lead to a smaller degree, or only on some things. And there are the free-thinkers and innovators who prefer to do the leading. As a social justice advocate and activist (including animal rights activism), I see and discuss and ponder a lot of things about humanity that are simply depressing. However, I always fall back on the optimism that humanity, as a whole, is a kind, just, and progressive creature. It is part of our evolution. We value and thrive as a community, helping each other, because that has allowed us to advance beyond the simple gatherers we started out as. The happier we are as individuals, the more we help others, making others happier, etc. If I want the world to be a better place, I simply have to help my neighbour, and I've accomplished just that. So, yeah, politicians can suck (even in Canada . Some of them are in it for themselves. The state of the world is pretty sad, compared to how we'd like it to be. But we are continually moving in the right direction, even if we have the occasional back-slide. History has shown, as per AuBricker's observations, that very trend. - Niilo * "Right-wing authoritarians" does not necessarily mean those who are politically on the right. It's a term coined by a professor of psychology who spent his career studying people's behaviours in terms of following or leading. His book (freely available) is a very interesting read, and helps to explain a lot about those who become parrots / zombies for their political or religious leader of choice. home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
|
|
|
Post by Stormchaser on Jul 1, 2012 5:26:37 GMT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------. P.S. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------. P.P.S. I hope to respond to other points in this thread. As much as I hate debating faceless people over the internet I feel compelled to argue a bit for us "extremists" on the right. But it will have to wait till I have time to devote to such an argument .... 3 days .... Edit: This post has been redacted, Eric Holder style.
|
|
|
Post by AuBricker on Jul 1, 2012 11:33:09 GMT
Humm. The Teabaggers used this term to describe themselves well before I did. Remember the sign they sometimes sported? Then again you can simply examine this post from 2009: www.facebook.com/events/59218539592/Goggle it should you doubt me. Of course, this group of dimwits said many things they'll like the rest of us to forget, but the fact remains, they did nonetheless. And if you wish to insult my sexual practices, well, sorry, you must do better than that. I have an ex-wife -- I've heard worse.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 16:26:27 GMT
I disagree with lumping all people into a pile of "those who only want to be lead". Not all people, just the voting majority. It is the same as most consumers wanting to be told what to buy. Marketing is, for a business, far more important than any other facet of its operation. It isn't about quality service and products for a well informed consumer, it is about marketing and market share and the customer isn't a person any more than the corporation is, the customer is simply a profit maximized demographic formula. The same is true of politics. We're being played for suckers. Look at this thread and people happily spreading the politico-marketing memes seeded by the establishment parties: the tea-bagger thing, the partisanship, the right wing lefty wing blah blah.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 16:45:26 GMT
However, I always fall back on the optimism that humanity, as a whole, is a kind, just, and progressive creature. It is part of our evolution. We value and thrive as a community, helping each other, because that has allowed us to advance beyond the simple gatherers we started out as. The happier we are as individuals, the more we help others, making others happier, etc. If I want the world to be a better place, I simply have to help my neighbour, and I've accomplished just that. Wow, had to respond to this despite cutting it off the original post in my quote. I don't think humanity is kind and just and progressive. That is not what evolution has given us. That isn't even any kind of reality. Not in nature, and we are natural beings. Evolution has given us, like any other surviving species, especially apex predators, the single-minded desire to survive no matter what. That involves a lot of pretty "not nice" things. As communities we thrive in the same way: by being communities that can out-compete other communities for resources etc. The method of a successful community is copied by others, or is forced on them, and simply survives. The method of an unsuccessful community simply dies out due to its own incompetence. If I want the world to be a better place I need to stand behind my family first, my community second, my nation third. I need to empower my neighbor to help himself. That makes my community stronger. The rules of survival are still the same as they were 2000 years ago. The difference is all the layers of civilization that have developed since then have acted to insulate us (in the west) from reality. The layers of that insulation are slowly being peeled away as our civilization falls apart, and eventually we will probably be left to confront the central reality- rather it will confront us, is confronting us. There is a little rant for you. We are at each others throats and right now it is in a verbal or political-theatre kind of way. That is the insulation, or part of it anyways. As that comes off we will actually be at each others throats. Sides will blame each other for their own savagery when the reality is that they will simply be playing by the rules that have existed all along. Nature is not nice, life is not nice, people are not nice. It is full of pain, suffering, struggle...with fleeting moments of triumph and love. You think the guy who calls another guy a teabagger nazi really sees the humanity of that other person? No, he would as soon push him over a cliff or have him banned, censored, locked away etc. Meh, reality.
|
|
|
Post by bazukar on Jul 1, 2012 17:25:58 GMT
"Nature is neither kind nor cruel, it is simply indifferent"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 22:42:49 GMT
"Nature is neither kind nor cruel, it is simply indifferent" I think that is true though when one is subject to that indifference for better or worse, it is easy to perceive cruelty or kindness. When nature expresses its self through humanity, indifference is a difficult point to make.
|
|
|
Post by AuBricker on Jul 1, 2012 22:56:16 GMT
Overdriver, your comments were intelligent and well-reasoned, but -- unfortunately -- a few of your conclusions feel shy of the mark. My criticism of current Republican practices are in no way born of partisanship. The GOP has had many proud moments. The Republican Party gave us the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments, thereby introducing the concept of positive liberty into our Constitution. Our first Republican president, Abraham Lincoln, was our nation's finest leader. No president had done more for the environment than did Theodore Roosevelt. Only one president, Republican Dwight Eisenhower, openly and directly confronted the insanity of runaway military spending. One of my personal heroes, Earl Warren, might be the finest jurist of my lifetime. Did I mention he is a Republican? So is Richard Posner, a sitting judge on the Seventh Circuit, a man with whom I frequently disagree, but always respect. Likewise, one of my closest friends is a stanch conservative Republican, and a more ethical man is yet to exist.
I do not, by any means, idealize the Democratic Party. The past history of the Democratic Party as the defender of slavery and succession cannot be erased. When I was a child, Democratic politicians led the charge against racial equality and integration. And, of course, Democratic leaders led us into the insanity of Vietnam.
But now, it is the Republicans who are embracing madness. A plurality of Mississippi Republicans believe interracial marriage should be illegal. The intellectual leader of the Republican majority on the Supreme Court argues that it is just to execute an innocent defendant, providing he gets a fair trial first. He and his fellow GOP jurists have ruled that prosecutors cannot be held accountable for knowingly withholding exculpatory evidence leading to the conviction or even execution of an innocent defendant. Robert Bork, the failed Supreme Court nominee, argues that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965 are unconstitutional. He also insists that constitutional guarantees of free speech do not protect scientific and literary speech, and governments should be free to censor such language. As a bonus, he claims states should be able to deny citizens the right to use contraceptives. Bork is currently a judicial advisor to Romney. The governor of Arizona has allowed Medicare recipients to die to make a political point. Republican activists press for the inclusion of their religious view in public school curriculum along with dubious pseudoscience claims. (In my decade plus as a public school teacher, I have seen GOP activists attack, not just evolution and climate change science, which is bad enough, but also geology, astronomy, literature, and history, for example.) Republican politicians in one state are trying to revoke the medical license of a public health physician for approving what they consider an unnecessary abortion; the patient was a ten-year-old girl who had raped by an uncle. Large numbers of the Republican rank and file have embraced the birther movement. (One of the more recent and arguably the most strange of the birther claims insist that Obama's mother was born a man!) Just as they once claimed the Clintons were mass murderers, they now earnestly insist the Obama is a homosexual who is guilty of murdering several of his gay parters. Note such claims are not limited to the fringes of the GOP. There exists several elected state and federal Republican officeholders making these or similar claims. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.
You may reply, "Your description does not fit the entire Republican Party," and I agree. Many rational, reasonable Republicans are struggling desperately to retake control of the party. I wish them luck, but sadly, they are losing the battle.
In short, here is my stance: I don't support the Democrats in this election cycle because I am wed to their party; I am voting Democratic because the GOP drove me to it.
I realize how fashionable it is among young people to indignantly declare, "A pox on both your houses," and then vote third party. The sentiment is admirable, but the results disastrous. We need only point to the election of 2000 as illustration. The Nader campaign swung the election to Bush. As a result, the US experienced the Iraq War, defended torture, and curtail the civil liberties of citizens.
Oh, the US will not go to Hell if Obama loses the upcoming election, but it will be a better place should he remain in office.
|
|
|
Post by tomaan on Jul 1, 2012 23:50:38 GMT
AuBricker -- well said. I'd even go so far as to add Bush I to the list -- when he broke his "no new taxes" pledge, he sacrificed his chance at a second term for the good of the country. Those tax increases contributed to the Clinton surplus when the economy eventually improved. I'm pretty much in the same boat as you: I really don't recognize what's coming out of the Republican party these days - a lot of their arguments defy logic and contradicts their own party history (i.e. Reagan signed tax increases during the early 80s recession...). And since we only have one other option....
|
|