Post by amoi on Jul 20, 2012 4:09:07 GMT
Maybe this should go in the ideas forum. I don't know. Feel free to move it there if you feel like it, admins.
I feel that monks need some buffing. I realize that this isn't a unique phenomenon. There are other classes or quasi classes that probably also need some buffing. BFMs come to mind off the top of my head.
My primary thesis here is that every monk ability has either been outright stolen and given to other classes, or the other classes have abilities that are ultimately better than their monk counterparts.
I'm not saying that monks are unplayable. I'm not saying that monks are utterly useless. I'm saying that everything a monk can do is done better by something else, particularly rangers & champs. Some of you will say that it's an apples to oranges comparison. It's not. It's very much apples to apples. They have many abilities that are fundamentally the same. Some of them are literally the same, but one class is better at it.
Lets look at each individual monk ability.
Wisdom AC: Outright stolen and given to rangers. Previously, a ranger would have at least had to splash one monk level. Rangers wisdom AC is better than Monk wisdom AC because they can wear light armor and still get it, which opens up far more gearing options. Also, for non-wisdom monk builds, Ranger wisdom AC is superior because it doubles the AC value if you have below 20 wisdom.
Monk Speed: Increased speed
Advantages: can't be mords or breached off.
Disadvantages: It's actually too fast. If you lag or you're not careful, you just spawned 3 more pulls than you were supposed to. Whoops.
Other people have it: FoM pretty much takes care of your speed needs. FoM also takes care of some other important immunities. Anyone can get a FoM item with 40+ caster levels.
Diamond Soul: Monk Spell Resistance. A pure monk gets 80 SR without feating for it.
Advantages: can't be mords or breached off
Disadvantages: Requires a nearly pure monk build to be worth anything at all.
Other people have it: There are BUR subraces that grant nearly this level of SR. Pharlan gets you 75. Pharlan is a fairly premium CoT/BG/Pally race, so this may be another example of CoTs having Monk abilities. Spell Resistance is also a very common buff.
Perfect Self: Mind immunity granted at 20 lvls of monk.
Advantages: can't be mords or breached off. Never need to wear an exo-array
Disadvantages: None.
Other people have it: Outright stolen and given to CoTs at 45 CoT levels.
Perfect self also has a 20/+1 damage immunity. This doesn't even come close to the 40/+16 damage immunity that a pure Champion of Torm gets with Divine Wrath. The damage immunity for Perfect Self is basically completely useless.
Empty Body: - 70% concealment for a pure monk with no splashes.
Advantages: Can't be mords or breached off.
Diadvantages: draws from ki pool shared with Wholeness of Body. Finite duration, dependent on monk levels and wisdom modifier. Takes a full round to activate or deactivate.
Other classes have it: Rangers have camo from a lvl 1 spell slot which can grant concealment nearly as high as empty body. It can be mords/breached, but not if you're geared against it. Staffmasters get 90% concealment, which can be mords/breached off. Any arcane caster can get 80% concealment easily enough. Anyone can get 50% concealment from a Scabbard of Stealth. Everyone elses forms of concealment are basically limitless in terms of duration. If Camouflage wears off, you probably have 4 more castings of it before you're out. Same goes for improved invis or displacement or EV.
Wholeness of Body: Self-heal & grants crit immunity if str > 40
Advantages: can't be mords or breached off. The automatic self healing is very nice, but rarely a life saver due to the instant-death nature of this game.
Disadvantages: Duration is very finite. Draws from the same pool as Empty Body. Takes a full round to activate or deactivate. The healing from Empty Body is kind of a joke compared to a Champs constantly refreshing Restoration.
Other people have it:
Rangers with 40 str get crit immunity from Polymorph Self.
Paladins/BGs with 40 str get crit immunity from Death Ward.
Barbs with 40 str get crit immunity from Greater Rage.
Champs with 40 str get crit immunity from Divine Wrath.
Miscellaneous class features:
Legendary Monks get 1% physical immunity per 2 points of STR modifier. - This is pretty nice. A str monk can get 30% damage immunity, but it doesn't actually make up for the immunities lost by not wearing heavy armor and a shield.
Bonus Damage: When unarmed, Legendary Monks inflict 1 point of bonus damage per 6 Monk levels (including LL), to a maximum of 10 points at Monk 60. This is implemented as a temporary bonus on any gloves they wear. The damage type will be changed to reflect the nature of the gloves (spiked, bladed or regular impact). - So a pure monk gets +10 damage. It's not significant. In my opinion, unarmed monks should simply be granted the Two-handed damage bonus of 50%. Yes, they would still get to wield a flag. This might almost make up for all their other shortcomings.
Monk weapon attack progression: This is a base feature of the class in NWN and hasn't been customized here, except to include Qstaff & Shuriken at 22 monk levels. The monk progression can be gained by taking a single monk level and wielding a monk weapon; unnarmed, kama, goad, nunchuck. The monk weapon attack progression never counts for off-hand attacks. This feature is somewhat less useful because of the crit range on Monk weapons being inferior to other weapons. It's also diminished slightly because pure Monks lose one APR for being pure monks.
Innate survival ability: For each 20 monk levels (not including LL) a Monk can acquire permanent levitation, water breathing, firewalking or passwall from the spells pedestal in the docks. This can make gearing a little easier in LL areas. It doesnt matter at all for hells/ely.
Quivering Palm & Stunning Fist
Stunning Fist is a Will Save.
Stunning fist DC caps out at 70. You can hit that DC by being a pure monk & having decent wisdom, or you can take some levels in other things and still hit it by taking the Improved Stunning Fist feat. It is a swift action.
It respects critical immunity.
You can use it Monk Level times per day.
Short range
Quivering Palm is exactly the same, except it is a Fort Save, and can only be used once(to success) per day. If you succeed in using it on a crit immune mob, it strips the crit immune, which I guess will allow you to stunning fist it.
Lets compare both of those to Ranger Called Shot. No, this is not an apples-oranges comparison.
Called Shot is a Fort Save
The DC on Called shot is much much lower than Stunning Fist or Quiv Palm. For a good Zen Archer ranger, its right around 60.
Ranger Called Shot also respects crit immunity.
Called Shot is a swift action.
It marks a target for 2 rounds, so a ranger can maintain 2 marked targets at all times.
Infinite uses per day.
It works at great range.
Called Shot is better than Stunning Fist & Quiv Palm. There's a few reasons.
1. Why stun something when you can insta-slay it? It respects the same immunity as Stunning Fist, which is Critical Immunity.
2. Infinite uses per day.
3. Works at range
4. No check to mark the target, simply need to hit the target with an attack while it is marked. Hitting things is easy. No need to land a critical hit(sorry, assassins, you still have to.)
5. Fort Saves are generally lower than Will saves on enemies.
There's one argument that could be made to say that Quiv Palm & Stunning Fist are as good:
The DC of Called Shot is about 10 lower. 10 is a lot. This argument is totally valid, but it falls a little bit flat when you realize how many MORE checks a mob has to make against Called Shot than against Stunning Fist & Quiv Palm. Eventually, it will roll a 1.
I will also point out that the Opportunity Cost for a Called Shot Ranger using Called Shot is zero. The Opportunity Cost for a Monk using Stunning Fist that round is that he cannot use KD or Disarm that round.
Saves
Monks in vanilla NWN have some of the highest saves in the game. Here, you have to take several feats to have decent saves.
Conclusion
Rangers have a superior version of almost every monk ability except Mind Immunity; that one was given to CoTs, oddly.
I think there's a few easy fixes. I'm not recommending all of these, maybe just portions of some of them:
1. 50% damage bonus for unarmed monks with CC monk. Get rid of the paltry +10 damage for being a pure monk.
2. Make Stunning Fist infinite uses per day.
3. Make Quiv Palm monk level uses per day.
4. Make Wholeness of Body do Restoration to match Champ restoration.
5. Raise concealment value on Empty Body by 10%.
6. Make Stunning Fist respect a different immunity from Critical Hits. Possibly Fear Immunity? I don't know. This would actually make them different enough from a Called Shot ranger to desire to have both a monk and a ranger in your party.
7. Grant monks additional Saves somehow. Give them Legendary Luck upon becoming a Legendary Monk?
8. This one is mandatory in my opinion, regardless of anything else done with monks. Remove or enhance Circle Kick. Circle Kick is bugged and useless in any NWN version. If you simply want to remove it, fine. If you want to enhance it, I would recommend simply making it add 1 APR for unnarmed monks.
I expect a lot of people are going to flame me for this, but we'll see.
I feel that monks need some buffing. I realize that this isn't a unique phenomenon. There are other classes or quasi classes that probably also need some buffing. BFMs come to mind off the top of my head.
My primary thesis here is that every monk ability has either been outright stolen and given to other classes, or the other classes have abilities that are ultimately better than their monk counterparts.
I'm not saying that monks are unplayable. I'm not saying that monks are utterly useless. I'm saying that everything a monk can do is done better by something else, particularly rangers & champs. Some of you will say that it's an apples to oranges comparison. It's not. It's very much apples to apples. They have many abilities that are fundamentally the same. Some of them are literally the same, but one class is better at it.
Lets look at each individual monk ability.
Wisdom AC: Outright stolen and given to rangers. Previously, a ranger would have at least had to splash one monk level. Rangers wisdom AC is better than Monk wisdom AC because they can wear light armor and still get it, which opens up far more gearing options. Also, for non-wisdom monk builds, Ranger wisdom AC is superior because it doubles the AC value if you have below 20 wisdom.
Monk Speed: Increased speed
Advantages: can't be mords or breached off.
Disadvantages: It's actually too fast. If you lag or you're not careful, you just spawned 3 more pulls than you were supposed to. Whoops.
Other people have it: FoM pretty much takes care of your speed needs. FoM also takes care of some other important immunities. Anyone can get a FoM item with 40+ caster levels.
Diamond Soul: Monk Spell Resistance. A pure monk gets 80 SR without feating for it.
Advantages: can't be mords or breached off
Disadvantages: Requires a nearly pure monk build to be worth anything at all.
Other people have it: There are BUR subraces that grant nearly this level of SR. Pharlan gets you 75. Pharlan is a fairly premium CoT/BG/Pally race, so this may be another example of CoTs having Monk abilities. Spell Resistance is also a very common buff.
Perfect Self: Mind immunity granted at 20 lvls of monk.
Advantages: can't be mords or breached off. Never need to wear an exo-array
Disadvantages: None.
Other people have it: Outright stolen and given to CoTs at 45 CoT levels.
Perfect self also has a 20/+1 damage immunity. This doesn't even come close to the 40/+16 damage immunity that a pure Champion of Torm gets with Divine Wrath. The damage immunity for Perfect Self is basically completely useless.
Empty Body: - 70% concealment for a pure monk with no splashes.
Advantages: Can't be mords or breached off.
Diadvantages: draws from ki pool shared with Wholeness of Body. Finite duration, dependent on monk levels and wisdom modifier. Takes a full round to activate or deactivate.
Other classes have it: Rangers have camo from a lvl 1 spell slot which can grant concealment nearly as high as empty body. It can be mords/breached, but not if you're geared against it. Staffmasters get 90% concealment, which can be mords/breached off. Any arcane caster can get 80% concealment easily enough. Anyone can get 50% concealment from a Scabbard of Stealth. Everyone elses forms of concealment are basically limitless in terms of duration. If Camouflage wears off, you probably have 4 more castings of it before you're out. Same goes for improved invis or displacement or EV.
Wholeness of Body: Self-heal & grants crit immunity if str > 40
Advantages: can't be mords or breached off. The automatic self healing is very nice, but rarely a life saver due to the instant-death nature of this game.
Disadvantages: Duration is very finite. Draws from the same pool as Empty Body. Takes a full round to activate or deactivate. The healing from Empty Body is kind of a joke compared to a Champs constantly refreshing Restoration.
Other people have it:
Rangers with 40 str get crit immunity from Polymorph Self.
Paladins/BGs with 40 str get crit immunity from Death Ward.
Barbs with 40 str get crit immunity from Greater Rage.
Champs with 40 str get crit immunity from Divine Wrath.
Miscellaneous class features:
Legendary Monks get 1% physical immunity per 2 points of STR modifier. - This is pretty nice. A str monk can get 30% damage immunity, but it doesn't actually make up for the immunities lost by not wearing heavy armor and a shield.
Bonus Damage: When unarmed, Legendary Monks inflict 1 point of bonus damage per 6 Monk levels (including LL), to a maximum of 10 points at Monk 60. This is implemented as a temporary bonus on any gloves they wear. The damage type will be changed to reflect the nature of the gloves (spiked, bladed or regular impact). - So a pure monk gets +10 damage. It's not significant. In my opinion, unarmed monks should simply be granted the Two-handed damage bonus of 50%. Yes, they would still get to wield a flag. This might almost make up for all their other shortcomings.
Monk weapon attack progression: This is a base feature of the class in NWN and hasn't been customized here, except to include Qstaff & Shuriken at 22 monk levels. The monk progression can be gained by taking a single monk level and wielding a monk weapon; unnarmed, kama, goad, nunchuck. The monk weapon attack progression never counts for off-hand attacks. This feature is somewhat less useful because of the crit range on Monk weapons being inferior to other weapons. It's also diminished slightly because pure Monks lose one APR for being pure monks.
Innate survival ability: For each 20 monk levels (not including LL) a Monk can acquire permanent levitation, water breathing, firewalking or passwall from the spells pedestal in the docks. This can make gearing a little easier in LL areas. It doesnt matter at all for hells/ely.
Quivering Palm & Stunning Fist
Stunning Fist is a Will Save.
Stunning fist DC caps out at 70. You can hit that DC by being a pure monk & having decent wisdom, or you can take some levels in other things and still hit it by taking the Improved Stunning Fist feat. It is a swift action.
It respects critical immunity.
You can use it Monk Level times per day.
Short range
Quivering Palm is exactly the same, except it is a Fort Save, and can only be used once(to success) per day. If you succeed in using it on a crit immune mob, it strips the crit immune, which I guess will allow you to stunning fist it.
Lets compare both of those to Ranger Called Shot. No, this is not an apples-oranges comparison.
Called Shot is a Fort Save
The DC on Called shot is much much lower than Stunning Fist or Quiv Palm. For a good Zen Archer ranger, its right around 60.
Ranger Called Shot also respects crit immunity.
Called Shot is a swift action.
It marks a target for 2 rounds, so a ranger can maintain 2 marked targets at all times.
Infinite uses per day.
It works at great range.
Called Shot is better than Stunning Fist & Quiv Palm. There's a few reasons.
1. Why stun something when you can insta-slay it? It respects the same immunity as Stunning Fist, which is Critical Immunity.
2. Infinite uses per day.
3. Works at range
4. No check to mark the target, simply need to hit the target with an attack while it is marked. Hitting things is easy. No need to land a critical hit(sorry, assassins, you still have to.)
5. Fort Saves are generally lower than Will saves on enemies.
There's one argument that could be made to say that Quiv Palm & Stunning Fist are as good:
The DC of Called Shot is about 10 lower. 10 is a lot. This argument is totally valid, but it falls a little bit flat when you realize how many MORE checks a mob has to make against Called Shot than against Stunning Fist & Quiv Palm. Eventually, it will roll a 1.
I will also point out that the Opportunity Cost for a Called Shot Ranger using Called Shot is zero. The Opportunity Cost for a Monk using Stunning Fist that round is that he cannot use KD or Disarm that round.
Saves
Monks in vanilla NWN have some of the highest saves in the game. Here, you have to take several feats to have decent saves.
Conclusion
Rangers have a superior version of almost every monk ability except Mind Immunity; that one was given to CoTs, oddly.
I think there's a few easy fixes. I'm not recommending all of these, maybe just portions of some of them:
1. 50% damage bonus for unarmed monks with CC monk. Get rid of the paltry +10 damage for being a pure monk.
2. Make Stunning Fist infinite uses per day.
3. Make Quiv Palm monk level uses per day.
4. Make Wholeness of Body do Restoration to match Champ restoration.
5. Raise concealment value on Empty Body by 10%.
6. Make Stunning Fist respect a different immunity from Critical Hits. Possibly Fear Immunity? I don't know. This would actually make them different enough from a Called Shot ranger to desire to have both a monk and a ranger in your party.
7. Grant monks additional Saves somehow. Give them Legendary Luck upon becoming a Legendary Monk?
8. This one is mandatory in my opinion, regardless of anything else done with monks. Remove or enhance Circle Kick. Circle Kick is bugged and useless in any NWN version. If you simply want to remove it, fine. If you want to enhance it, I would recommend simply making it add 1 APR for unnarmed monks.
I expect a lot of people are going to flame me for this, but we'll see.