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Post by KnightErrant on Jul 21, 2012 15:45:54 GMT
Btw, if you have that opinion for SDs why put them on top of fighters... I know you can make a pretty damn good Fighter. Off the top of my head SD's should get better conceal...worse than Rangers atm iirc....access to crit immunity if 40 Base STR and longer lasting-auto recasting negative weapon buff--right now it lasts for something like 9 minutes real time which is beyond annoying. Never made a Fighter, just sketched a few out on paper but the main problem I see is they get tons of extra feats but nothing "really juicy" to take like say a Ranger with FE's...so you take a bunch of Greater STR and Dex feats which seems fairly blah...there just doesn't seem to be enough really good feats to make them "special" by having access to them all, ie tanks don't really have "hard choices" like casters when it comes to feat selection, they can almost always get every one they want/need...once again IMHO. Might be a interesting idea to remove the cap of 10 Great Ability feats for them so they could take Great Strength 11, 12 etc... KE.
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Post by Vichya on Jul 21, 2012 16:16:03 GMT
Fighers can swap epic prowess directly for ability points. They do not take great str or dex and thus can take more than 10 points in them.
I agree that SD concealment is a bit low, maybe it should be increased to 70% to make it comparable to high level concealment.
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Post by fallenwizard on Jul 21, 2012 17:03:15 GMT
Lets see viable monk builds...
Pure unitank monk - check Splash unitank monk - check Pure str monk - check Splash str monk - check Pure dex monk - check Splash dex monk - check Pure stunner monk - check Splash stunner monk - check
Lets see viable ranger builds
Pure str ranger - check Pure dex ranger - check Pure zen ranger - check Splash zen ranger - check Uni? close to hell uni at demi with good gear - check
Barbarians are pretty much str or str/uni. CoTs are almost the same with few exceptions of Dex's, thou they use monk splash. Staffmasters, Str or close to str/uni.
I dont know, but to me it looks like monks have numerous viable ways of building them as they can focus on so many things.
What comes to KE's list of what needs classes needs love, I'd agree with it if changing the title "needs modding" aka, ranger at the end of it as they are perfectly fine as they are now, barbarians needs small nerf to damage and boost to playability etc ending to slingers who needs another rework since their last one wasnt clearly enough. I'd propably place monk right there to 3rd place, maybe even 2nd tbh. As many others have been mentioning, maybe something could (and should) be done to fist monks since that is currently least appealing way to build them, viable, but least appealing.
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Post by bazukar on Jul 21, 2012 18:01:30 GMT
I consider bane knights dangerously close to broken. I'm probably going to make a thread with my concerns soon.
PDK....I don't even man.
RDD does pathetic damage. Like...omgreallybad.
Rogues have a thread.
Slinger....well....yeah. Slingers.
BG. Err smite everything?
Assassin. Can do reasonable damage if DW str build, but I think they could use a slight DC bump, or a feat that allows 2 instakill attempts a round, similar to superior disarm or something.
SD does weak damage and the neg buff is a 9 min ability which really stinks and kills off party utility.
PS. Pure dex anything is a horrible idea
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2012 5:37:16 GMT
As far as BG, like fighter, this is a class that I have experimented A LOT with. Not just in the build chamber but taking different builds through demi iterations. The only effective BG imo is a turner because its destruction DC is higher even than a turner cleric destruction dc. But even there "effective" becomes difficult to define. It is definitely a weak class on tanking alone. Smiter BGs can't match cots in tankage or come even close. They are just a weak class.
The fighter ability/prowess swap is "nice" but in the end won't get you even half of what thundering rage alone will+ no innate critical hit immunity (that lasts more than a few seconds per rest)= a meh tank class.
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Post by johnny on Jul 22, 2012 10:52:37 GMT
Imo, best way to build BG CC toon is going lash.
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Post by fallenwizard on Jul 22, 2012 14:46:21 GMT
PS. Pure dex anything is a horrible idea Pure dex as in 40 monk, high dex. Not as in 80 dex brownie with 10 str at 2xD.
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Post by tomaan on Jul 22, 2012 14:57:49 GMT
I'm gonna kinda-sorta try to bring this back on topic by saying you can build effective -- albeit not necessarily dominant -- toons with both BG and Fighter by splashing monk and going dexer.
Each give you the chance to add some str for checks (BG x4 in LLs, and Fighter with swap) and with all the attacks/round you can dish out some respectable damage -- not quite at Barb/Staffy level but near the top of the damage list on most runs. The BG version needs conceal to survive, but the fighter version is pretty solid defensively.
I suppose that's one other thing I'd tweak about monks -- scale some of their abilities so that splashing isn't such a penalty.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2012 20:54:01 GMT
I'm gonna kinda-sorta try to bring this back on topic by saying you can build effective -- albeit not necessarily dominant -- toons with both BG and Fighter by splashing monk and going dexer. Each give you the chance to add some str for checks (BG x4 in LLs, and Fighter with swap) and with all the attacks/round you can dish out some respectable damage -- not quite at Barb/Staffy level but near the top of the damage list on most runs. The BG version needs conceal to survive, but the fighter version is pretty solid defensively. I suppose that's one other thing I'd tweak about monks -- scale some of their abilities so that splashing isn't such a penalty. I agree monk splash is definitely one good way to go with fighter. I will say though that from what I've seen ""not quite at Barb/Staffy level but near the top of the damage list "" means you come in at #2 or 3 about 100-150k less than the barb or staffy or staff monk.
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Post by bazukar on Jul 23, 2012 16:32:15 GMT
Right now if you aren't 2 handing you are left in the dust, period. After the retune DW str builds should be a lot closer, though 2h will always do more damage. And it should imo.
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Post by johnny on Jul 23, 2012 19:17:54 GMT
Right now if you aren't 2 handing you are left in the dust, period. After the retune DW str builds should be a lot closer, though 2h will always do more damage. And it should imo. I completely disagree with this statement. Having 2 weapons require more feats (or being 9 ranger). Having 2 weapons require more weapons (which are hard to get good versions) Having 2 weapons require more buffs from party members Having 2 weapons actually lower your AB even with all the feats. Having 2 weapons gives more Attacks/round which generates more Kickback. Having 2 weapons can make you lost 2 weapons very quick if not buffed for Alkiliths/Ichors/other stuff. With all these disadvantages I can't see why using a single weapon in 2 hands should give more damage than using 2 weapons one in each hand. Say a basic 2 weapons builds has 7 attacks, while the other has 5 attacks. So IMHO, the 7 attacks should deal sligthly more damage than the 5 attacks.
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Post by Yojimbo on Jul 23, 2012 21:09:16 GMT
Generally speaking a dual-wielder is more defensively strong/sound than a 2-Hander. There are only a handful of non STR based 2-Handers due to the severe impact to AB of not having STR as the prime stat on a 2-Hander. The only non STR focused 2-Handers are CHA Rapier Wit 2-Handers and WIS Intuitive Attack 2-Handers. I don't recall all the limits to Ranger on WIS AC but that would be where it could get a boost to defense. A CHA toon the only boost is from L21+ Paladin or BG shield AC which requires very high CHA and also CoT soak. Yes a sacrifice in defensive capabilities does make them deserve to be in the top for damage output. The current gap between a 2-Hander and any other non caster damage toon is vast and this needs to be addressed. I understand not all dual-wielders are DEX based w/ a splash of Monk but with the added attacks I would like to see the damage output of a STR based dual-wielder compared with some of the 2-Handers we got topping out the damage numbers. I would expect that gap to be much smaller than the gap we are seeing now because they have so much added damage from being a STR based build.
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Post by bazukar on Jul 23, 2012 21:33:38 GMT
I disagree with your rebuttal.
2h will always, and should always hit harder than 1 handed weapons.
The feat requirement for DW is steep for 2 extra attacks at -2 ab to all. I personally liked the way it was handled in 2.5. Could that be done here? Or have 1 of the 3 feats grant full str mod to the offhand. That being said, more attacks does not always equal better. Look at fist monks.
You chose 2 weapons. In most cases you could have used a double weapon.
More buffs is a weak argument imo, I have a dual wielder and I don't have problems with it.
The ab issue could be addressed or fixed....iirc though, most builds don't suffer at all for it if done properly.
The DW KB issue is a bad argument. I wear harper boots and have 2 more attacks. It's a choice you make, that can have downsides.
The slag issue is a choice you made. Use saps if it's that big of a deal, or try a double weapon.
A 2 hander hits harder. Always has, always will. Per hit you will never hit as hard as a 2 hander. Grossly oversimplifying, but 5 hits at 1.5 = 7.5. 7 hits, with 2 hits at .5 = 6. Adding full str mod to offhand would bring it up where, imo, it should be. It's that or add another attack to the offhand.
This is all completely moot imo, as they know 2h is farther ahead than it should be, and it is being brought back down.
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Post by johnny on Jul 23, 2012 21:53:40 GMT
I disagree with your rebuttal. 2h will always, and should always hit harder than 1 handed weapons. The feat requirement for DW is steep for 2 extra attacks at -2 ab to all. I personally liked the way it was handled in 2.5. Could that be done here? Or have 1 of the 3 feats grant full str mod to the offhand. That being said, more attacks does not always equal better. Look at fist monks. You chose 2 weapons. In most cases you could have used a double weapon. More buffs is a weak argument imo, I have a dual wielder and I don't have problems with it. The ab issue could be addressed or fixed....iirc though, most builds don't suffer at all for it if done properly. The DW KB issue is a bad argument. I wear harper boots and have 2 more attacks. It's a choice you make, that can have downsides. The slag issue is a choice you made. Use saps if it's that big of a deal, or try a double weapon. A 2 hander hits harder. Always has, always will. Per hit you will never hit as hard as a 2 hander. Grossly oversimplifying, but 5 hits at 1.5 = 7.5. 7 hits, with 2 hits at .5 = 6. Adding full str mod to offhand would bring it up where, imo, it should be. It's that or add another attack to the offhand. This is all completely moot imo, as they know 2h is farther ahead than it should be, and it is being brought back down. Choices choices choices... Quite an interesting argument actually. I don't want and won't choose to suffer more for less benefits. So choices at this moment are quite simply saying: "if you aren't using a shield, then use 2-H." Any toon that I can get I will choose to be using one weapon in 2 hands. Even on ranger. There's no choice in this, it's just the way to go, just like you bump str or dex in your tanks instead of taking 40 Con. And yes, I'm keeping in mind that the boost will be nerfed sooner or later, but even if its like 30% it's still a lot better. I just hope that when it get changed, 2H should still hit harder on a single hit, but the average damage by the end of the run should be the same, or else you take away the "choice" from it.
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Post by bazukar on Jul 23, 2012 23:25:50 GMT
I don't understand the hubbub. It's always been like this. Most 2h builds outperformed DW. The degree to which they did was just less. If you want DW to perform close to it, you need to give the offhand 100% str bonus and go str. And honestly, some builds will still outperform DW, as with uxan/wrap and HS you will hit as often as a DWer.
And this choice is an illusion, it always has been. There's always been a certain build or archetype that was "the best". You used it, or you were left in the dust. For a time it was the unresistable damage builds, then it moved to the DW builds, and now it's moving to the 2h builds.
And after the nerf to 2h, it'll still be 2h for str tanks. Even if they removed the bonus entirely, with the exception perhaps of barbs because of the sonic and added con damage, and maaayyybe cots (i lean towards 2h still) 2h will still be the way to go.
STR 2h, Dex DW.
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