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Post by Paradoom on Dec 22, 2012 8:45:58 GMT
Hmm greater ruin is quite handy, but the only mob I use it often against are raks usually, esp in random spawns if the arcanes slack to kill it ^^. I make use of it if I have it on a toon but as laser pointed out I don´t depend on it at all esp. on my droods, though they have it. On a Sorc u dont need it, on a wizzard maybe. Arcanes can kill anything anyway that you can kill with greater ruin. On my turner I dont have it, cause the cost of that spell is way too high in comparison for an overall more powerful toon. On an eebil clerc 2 ruins with Eradicate are fun, but what couldn´t you banish/implode anyway? And tbh how often this spell fails with that little uses per day I rather use more area spells with a little less dc but hit so many more monsters that the gain is much higher.
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Post by laserpointer on Dec 22, 2012 17:42:15 GMT
The latest posted version only gets ESF Evocation which might seem attractive on paper to free up 2 feats, but the +4 dc from PSF Evocation is really important and I don't think it's worth dropping. Considering that you were debating going full plate with the build, on next reincarnation you could drop the monk level for a ranger level, drop epic reflexes and pick up LSF+PSF Evocation.
Without ESF Trans or PSF Enchant you will be missing IoF or a source of +15 GMW, which won't be too problematic in parties with a bard (all bards should have +15 GMW). In others tanks will have some noticeable dps decrease. You do pick up ESF Abj instead which is nice though, and tanks are needy enough as is.
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Post by desocupado on Dec 22, 2012 19:35:37 GMT
The latest posted version only gets ESF Evocation which might seem attractive on paper to free up 2 feats, but the +4 dc from PSF Evocation is really important and I don't think it's worth dropping. Considering that you were debating going full plate with the build, on next reincarnation you could drop the monk level for a ranger level, drop epic reflexes and pick up LSF+PSF Evocation. Without ESF Trans or PSF Enchant you will be missing IoF or a source of +15 GMW, which won't be too problematic in parties with a bard (all bards should have +15 GMW). In others tanks will have some noticeable dps decrease. You do pick up ESF Abj instead which is nice though, and tanks are needy enough as is. I need the monk level for maximum tumble (+4 ac) and evasion. And, due personal preference, I won't drop Reflex. The only feasible thing to drop would be 2 Great Wisdom feats for LSF and PSF Evocation: Nets +3 DC for Evocation (mostly for level 9 spell, Implosion - tough sometimes Blistering Radiance and Earthquake are useful) and -1 for Abjuration (Banish) Necro (HB, Destruction, UTD and Energy Drain) and Enchantment (Rebuke) Since I intend to use the cleric mostly for abyss, I might be better off with more DC on the other 3 schools.
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Post by Yojimbo on Dec 24, 2012 13:38:42 GMT
Why should all Bards have +15 GMW Laser? Im not saying Cacophony or Double HMR is bad but most seem to take PSF+PSK Illusion and to my knowledge Bards don't get a bonus to thier GMW. I know Paladins can get +15 Attack Bonus from their own Clang and I can't recall if that applies to others or just to self. I would say picking up PSF Enchantment is good for a cleric w/o ESF Trans but I don't know how he would end up fitting that in exactly.
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Post by Raj on Dec 24, 2012 15:15:22 GMT
All bards should have +15 gmw because all bards should already have hmr so it only costs them two feats; they aren't dc or stats dependant so it's easy to fit those two feats in ll/pl. They are spontaneous casters and can easily buff a whole party of herc dualwielders with 286488 weapons.
Only pure paladins can give +15 attack bonus to others with clang and can't really buff a whole party with multiple weapons, pariahs aren't that common, (caster) clerics sacrifice a lot (they already shall have girdle but still lose dc and/or a great psk in another school, plus lvl 4 slots are in demand) and not abyss focused mages sacrifice even more (a whole useful school) if they want psf ench.
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Post by Yojimbo on Dec 24, 2012 17:10:04 GMT
Im only suggesting a Cleric w/o ESF Trans but w/ ESF Ench should consider picking up LSF+PSF in Ench particularly if it plans to use Rebuke its probably worth while investment anyhow. I would have to look at how high my Bard goes with its Foci but remember for a Bard you lack ESF until LLs, which I really wish could/would be fixed via HGE, so it does make fitting in the LSF and PSF for Foci tougher and generally expected to have at least 4 if not 5 ESF on it and if its to be a caster you would likely want SP feats. That is really a topic for another day and another thread. This is about Clerics and I do think that a Cleric with ESF Ench for GotF but no ESF Trans might find it worth while to invest in LSF+PSF Ench for better Rebuke & GMWs.
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Post by desocupado on Dec 24, 2012 17:31:24 GMT
Im only suggesting a Cleric w/o ESF Trans but w/ ESF Ench should consider picking up LSF+PSF in Ench particularly if it plans to use Rebuke its probably worth while investment anyhow. I would have to look at how high my Bard goes with its Foci but remember for a Bard you lack ESF until LLs, which I really wish could/would be fixed via HGE, so it does make fitting in the LSF and PSF for Foci tougher and generally expected to have at least 4 if not 5 ESF on it and if its to be a caster you would likely want SP feats. That is really a topic for another day and another thread. This is about Clerics and I do think that a Cleric with ESF Ench for GotF but no ESF Trans might find it worth while to invest in LSF+PSF Ench for better Rebuke & GMWs. Then we go back to my old (first page) build
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Post by buddhamind on Dec 24, 2012 17:44:50 GMT
On my most recent cleric reincarnation I picked up LSF and PSF: Enchantment, and I regret it. For starters, rebuke is only marginally useful, as nearly everything that can be killed with Rebuke can be killed or neutralized by some other cleric spell or epic. I can't even think of any exceptions... (Maybe non-paragon Orthons? I usually use Conversion on them anyway.) On top of that, Rebuke is usually limited by spell penetration, not DC. The only time I bother to memorize it is for Abyss runs, when I don't need a full stack of implosions, or for boss fights where magic damage is used. And finally, when we're all buffing, and I offer +15 GMW, nobody needs it. There's always a bard or a Pariah or something else there.
I wish I had taken LSF and PSF in Div or Evo instead of Ench.
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Post by chirality on Dec 24, 2012 19:36:49 GMT
It seems like you are spreading pretty thin trying to cover so many schools, defensive statistics, and base DC while already starting from a monk splash foundation which doesn't even offer the bonus feat of ranger splash.
I fully understand the value and desirability of a few points' worth of skill ranks, AC, saves, etc. for an abyss cleric given the importance of avoiding getting hit in the first place.
But further trying to maintain adequate DC and casting power when you're talking of dropping Great Wis, well also insisting on the reflexes feat, now wanting ruin, or not, meanwhile leaving evo at only esf...it seems rough.
To have a level 80 toon spread so thin, well I know there is justification for all of it, but to have such choices for para feats is not something I could bring myself to do.
I guess all I'm trying to say is, meh
a) imo even for abyss cleric only 3 ranks evo is weak b) don't drop any wisdom c) don't bother with ruin d) get div e) really can't you live without the leg valor etc.? dropping those would go a long way
edit: well on second thought:
ok I get the ref, but the monk splash not so much. I know abyss places a premium on dodge vs. soak but for a cleric, you should be cloaking yourself in swirly green so why not do ranger instead of monk and net a feat, maybe a lose a couple points of AC? But gain the imms which you should have all the tools necessary to maintain at decent levels. I think with x2 and Wis arti it would be a loss of AC to go to plate, well with +2 Dex/Wis from paras especially (it was in my experience without even without demi anyway). But that way you could still get the Tumble AC and a much-needed feat?
I guess with the valor the monk evasion is decently useful? But eh.
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Post by Raj on Dec 24, 2012 19:41:36 GMT
edit: reply to rebuke
For hells other than non para orthons, there're ice fiends or other little monsters (usually animal-like things) if you are low on HB/don't want to waste a plode for just one, and then aberybos swarms that are a nice exception, some mages don't deal with them fast enough, but most of the time they get weirded.
In abyss it's quite uber but esf proved to be enough, i reinced my no-iof, yes-psf ench cleric as well.
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Post by desocupado on Dec 24, 2012 21:30:11 GMT
Update - first page has 2 versions (current and future)
I'm a bit more defensive oriented, since I want to be tougher than the first version (PSF Enchantment + Robe) that's why I put excessive value on Epic Reflexes, Evasion and maxed tumble/discipline (the second version has both 135 AC and HIGH immunity/soak).
I can't say there is one correct distribution of feats, the choices have their Pros and Cons. Let's say if some of the people helping me were to make a similar cleric: -Raj would drop Epic Reflexes and get LSF Evocation (guess) -Budah would drop Reflexes and Heal for Greater Ruin and Spellcraft (guess) -Yojimbo/Laser would be happy with the first version - Ruin and GMW+15 (guess)
Is having ESF Evocation is bad for Implosion? Yes. But will it make the level 9 spell never land? Hardly (DC 53-59). I just need to rely more Battletide-5, Prayer and Energy Drain/Soul jar.
Is Greater Ruin a good spell? Of course it is. But can a Cleric go without it? Yes. Besides, I have Erradicate, on top of several instant kill spell. Will some nasty high SR mobs cause problems? They will, but it's possible to handle it.
Well, I can't really afford IoF (most Necromancy Clerics don't do that nowadays) and I chooseto spend more feats for PSK Divination. If you really want GMW+15 Drop PSF and PSK Divination for it. Tough using consumables might be a simpler choice.
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Post by buddhamind on Dec 24, 2012 21:58:31 GMT
Yes, that is what I would do.
I actually don't object to dropping ruin for LSF: Evo. I object to calling it a "noob" move. Clearly there are worse choices.
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Post by desocupado on Dec 24, 2012 22:44:47 GMT
On my most recent cleric reincarnation I picked up LSF and PSF: Enchantment, and I regret it. For starters, rebuke is only marginally useful, as nearly everything that can be killed with Rebuke can be killed or neutralized by some other cleric spell or epic. I can't even think of any exceptions... (Maybe non-paragon Orthons? I usually use Conversion on them anyway.) Abyssal Drakes, many abyss underwater mobs. The issue is that level 8 and 9 slots (rebuke is 8 for Clerics) are already required for other spells.
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