Lazy Looting Weaponmaster (19/14/7 R/F/WM)

[the1kobra]

A build that I'm going to be making soon. Mostly as a thought experiment, but I wanted to post it up before I was jumping into something egregiously dumb. Since I've read a lot about the threads about how rogues are unable to keep up with the other tanks while doing their picking/searching, I decided to come up with a new style of rogue, actually going back in time and going for what once was a popular class combo. 35/4/1 Rogue/BABFULL/Monk has it's uses and certainly gets good AB/AC/Damage, but I find can often get horribly hosed by all the tough STR checks since you really need everything on that build, even CHA if you go paladin. So here's my attempt to make a character that can:

1: Be a solid tank defensively
2: Hit Hard
3: Fulfill all necessary rogue functions.

So here's what I came up with:

Kolyarut Elf
Pre-epic: 4/9/7 Rogue/Fighter/WM
Epic: 19/14/7 Rogue/Fighter/WM

16(21)/17(22)/12(14)/14(16)/8(6)/8(6)
Free: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Pre-epic(7+5F): Strong Soul, Iron Will, Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Expertise, WW Attack, IMPR Crit, Power Attack, Cleave, G-Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization
Epic(7+3F+4R): Epic Fortitude, EWF, Eprowess, Armor Skin, IMPR Evasion, Defensive Roll, Epic Dodge, Epic Weapon Specialization, OV Crit, DV Crit, G-STR 1, G-Dex 1-2, 1 Free Rogue Feat (I recommend Epic Skill Focus Discipline, but ESF: Search and ESF: Listen are good picks too)
Legendary(7): LWF, L-Soul, L-Will, G-Dex 4-6, Legendary Weapon Specialization
Paragon(6): Paragon Weapon Focus, Paragon Weapon Specialization, Paragon Anchoring, Paragon Soul, ?, ?
25/48/16/16/6/6 (Base stats at level 60, no demi, no arty)

AB(+12s, no arty or demi, L60): 19+10+12+8+1+20+25+2 = 97

1/4/1
2/5/2
6/3/3
41/41/41
2/19/-2
10/0/15
62/72/60

Weapon choices are rapier, katana, light pick, and kukri, all taking advantage of a high crit range, at 16-20X6 for the pick and 10-20X4 for the others. Rapier might be best because katana and kukri require exotic.

With 25 Base STR it should add some nice damage and provide a solid defense vs STR checks, double demi with the asmo belt and 16s... 49 vs STR checks there which makes you pretty solid, far more so than a dual chuck rogue. AC with epic dodge should give pretty solid standard defense.

I'm not sure what to do with paragon feats. PWF obviously but beyond that... not sure.

Elf gives the auto-searching which helps since you won't get a glint. You could go human for the extra skill and feat and 2 con, but you're 2 dex down, lose sleep immunity and auto search, not to mention 2 search from elf.

Search/DT are at: 63+50+2+9 = 124,.. 126 at double demi. If you've got a search and disarm trap aug you can drop the ESF feats, take other rogue feats. Could go 16(18) INT too... means you don't need the feats at all if you're doubleDemi.

Not exactly sure what to take for the free feat... I suppose I could shuffle things around for epic weapon specialization, give a bit more damage.

Comments? Criticisms? I'm gonna make this soon, not sure what I'll take for all of the choices. Hmm....

[the1kobra]

And an open subby option, for those who lack Kolyaruts:

Kobold
Pre-epic: 4/9/7 Rogue/Fighter/WM
Epic: 19/14/7 Rogue/Fighter/WM

15(13)/16(18)/14/14/8/8
Pre-epic(8+5F): Strong Soul, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Iron Will, Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Expertise, WW Attack, IMPR Crit, Weapon Specialization, GWF, SF Disable Trap, (Blind fight, if you use dragon blood for free dodge)
Epic(7+3F+4R): IMPR Evasion, Defensive Roll, Epic Dodge, ESF Search, EWF, Eprowess, Armor Skin, Epic Weapon Specialization, Epic Fortitude, G-Dex 1-5
Legendary(7): LWF, L-Soul, L-Will, G-Dex 5-8, Legendary Weapon Specialization
13/50(62)/14/14/8/8

AB(+12s, no arty or demi, L60): 19+10+12+8+1+1+20+26+2 = 98

1/4/1
2/5/2
6/3/3
41/41/41
2/20/-1
10/0/15
62/71/61

Going for paragon Weapon Specialization for +20 damage per hit, should make up for the lost sneak attack dice. Also gets 16-20X5 crits. Cheers. You could alternatively use the spare feat for exotic and go for 10-20X3 crits using kukris.

[greven]

It seems that you could reach the 127 cap in search and disable traps rather easily at 2x demi without ESF or SF. You seem to be assuming only +12 to int from gear in the equation, but a 2x demi will almost certainly be able to get at least +14.

[the1kobra]

You have a point there, that would free up two feats, one rogue bonus and one general if I did not take the ESFs. I think I'd go with this:

Pre-epic(7+5F): Strong Soul, Iron Will, Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Expertise, WW Attack, IMPR Crit, Power Attack, Cleave, G-Cleave, GWF, Weapon Specialization
Epic(7+3F+4R): Epic Fortitude, EWF, Eprowess, Armor Skin, IMPR Evasion, Defensive Roll, Epic Dodge, ESF Discipline, OV Crit, DV Crit, G-Dex 1-4
Legendary(7): LWF, L-Soul, L-Will, G-Dex 5-8

Alternatively, I could do:
Pre-epic(7+5F): Strong Soul, Iron Will, Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Expertise, WW Attack, IMPR Crit, Power Attack, Cleave, G-Cleave, GWF, Weapon Specialization
Epic(7+3F+4R): Epic Fortitude, EWF, Eprowess, Armor Skin, EWS IMPR Evasion, Defensive Roll, Epic Dodge, ESF Discipline, OV Crit, DV Crit, G-Dex 1-3
Legendary(7): LWF, L-Soul, L-Will, G-Dex 4-6, Legendary Weapon Specialization

So 2 Dex or Legendary Weapon Specialization (+10 damage/hit), and I spent the rogue feat on ESF Disc, with a disc dump I figure that with the high STR, you should easily have enough discipline, but a little more won't hurt. You could take ESF Listen too, or self conceal one. I'm really not sure what to take the extra rogue feat on... could do IMPR sneak but it seems like a bit of a waste.

[arek]

Something I just noticed: You could get +1d6 Sneaks and +1 to your Upgrade Picks ability by going 21Rog/12Ftr/7WM. The only cost I can see is the free feat both of your builds seem to have. :-)

--Arek

[the1kobra]

Dropping 2 fighter for 2 rogue pre-epic reduces BAB by 1. Dropping it in epic loses an epic feat.

The big bonus of going with 2 more rogue though, is 32 additional skill points. It's actually difficult to get on the base character. My test character, at level 60, had the skills:

Discipline (43 dump)
Parry
Listen
Open Lock
Disarm Trap
Search
Tumble
UMD
Craft Weapon
Craft Armor (not maxed, 27 to be precise)

I could have gotten more skillpoints by going gnome or human, probably better to go human. 32 more skillpoints could max out craft armor, or to get some concentration. 23 Conc should be enough for this character.

I suppose the AC would be high even without craft armor, but still....

Edit to Add: Could add craft armor with paragon level skill points. Speaking of paragon levels, I imagine the paragon feats would be: Paragon Weapon Focus, Paragon Weapon Specialization, Paragon Hardened Soul (Saves are borderline), Paragon STR checks, not sure what to do for the last two. Could take 2 more great dex or take some environment feats.

[Yojimbo]

If I am not mistaken you can only take Paragon Weapon Specialization as a CC Fighter. For the Kolyarut version you could pick up the 2 Rogue levels in Epic and bump an Epic feat to LLs as it appears to have a "free" LL feat.

[arek]

Hmm...Didn't think about the AB loss, but the Koly version can eat that and doesn't need to (it has a free Legendary feat, at least in the original build, so just make the change in LLs). And the Kobold's AB is even higher, so it can easily eat the 1 point of AB as well, at least by current standards.

Also, 21 rogue gives you partial (1/3) hell penalty negation from Skill Mastery, if you can fit it in, so that's also something to consider. :-)

--Arek

[Yojimbo]

To me the bigger issue of -1 BAB is if it is dropping from 16 to 15 as that is 1 less attack.

[arek]

It won't. His pre-epic spread is 4rog/9ftr/7wm. This is 3+9+7 = 19 BAB. Going 6/7/7 would mean getting 4+7+7 = 18 BAB. That's not gonna affect his number of attacks/round, Yojimbo. :-)

--Arek

[the1kobra]

Aug 30, 2012 14:36:52 GMT Yojimbo said:

If I am not mistaken you can only take Paragon Weapon Specialization as a CC Fighter. For the Kolyarut version you could pick up the 2 Rogue levels in Epic and bump an Epic feat to LLs as it appears to have a "free" LL feat.

Tested it on a test character, and I was able to get PWS rapier. I actually think it's a good idea to go for that... it's a nice boost when you can't sneak attack and it's 80 extra damage on a crit. If you do though, it's probably not a good idea to go dropping the 'extra' feats. I suppose you could also shoot for 25/8/7, that's another nice old combination, it gets 6*6+20 = 56 more skill points, but it costs 2 feats.

Another nice thing is you have the Whetstone, and with 14 fighter, it lasts about an hour. Not really useful for damage, only gets +3, but it does give keen.

I think I might have bungled the AB calculation. On my test build I got 96 AB, though I got all the weapon specialization feats... so...

Anyways, I figure I ought to include a skill point calculation:

22*8(rogue) + 21*2(fighter/WM)+43*3-4(int) + 20*12 (LL) = 583. + 60(Paragon) = 643)
You want:
43 Disc
60 Tumble
63 Listen
63 OL
63 DT
63 Search
5 Set Trap
63 UMD
63 Parry
4 Intimidate
From 583, that leaves 93
23 Conc
63 Craft Weapon
7 Craft Armor

If you fill CrA in paragon levels, that leaves you with 4 spare skill points, and everything I think you need. You lose pickpocket, but eh...

[the1kobra]

Tried it out on a run, works pretty well. The character isn't at his full potential yet but I think he'll work quite well, certainly will do a lot more damage than a pure 40 rogue in most situations. Also, another thing, I think it's a very good idea to get paragon weapon specialization. It's a big help for the sneak attack immune and critical hit immune foes you'll face.

[Torin]

Ages back I made a Rogue with 10 Fighter 13 WM 17 Rogue - Elf Koly dexer like this. That class combo gets about 2 less feats (-2 fighter feats, -1 Rogue feat, +1 WM feat) but +2 AB from WM. And takes 10 levels of WM preepic to take fighter bonuses in epic levels.