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Post by chirality on Jun 20, 2013 23:00:10 GMT
Just out of curiosity, how much more do you think they should be increased?
Maybe I'm just missing some perspective by not being a regular Hellrunning normal mode vet, or maybe I'm missing some of the underlying economics here.
But to me the problem is quality moreso than quality. Maybe I'm wasting my breath and "dear reader"s time by harping on this but--the more time passes, the more wary, if not leery, I become of "books aren't dropping enough, improve the droprate". Why? Because I don't buy it. Depending on how the winds are blowing at any given month with regards to old HC vets having time to play, or old normal mode vets deciding to play HC, I may see several hell runs in a week or I may be lucky to see one in a month. Depending on how lucky a friend and I are with having matched-up free time to play, I may see zio2 twice in the same week or 2 months might go by without getting a chance to even step inside PoP let alone do a complete run (sucks to run out of time mid-run and have to part ways).
I'm detailing this just to offer my own example of playtime before I move on to "the heart of the matter". Basically, the point is that I really don't spend much time in most BUR zones nowadays. I could solo farm runs but the chance of BURs is so low I might as well just play in Hades; I certainly spend more time there looking for BURs than anywhere else.
I do not see poop except in abyss, and with 2 player 0 demi count, randoms aren't crapping out Audacious Provocations left and right; the only BURs I see is from the set chests, and if I go without loot splash theurge then no chest either.
Hell runs likewise I don't see many BURs, if any. After realizing that Pulpa thingy isn't even a BUR, it's even less than I thought.
So what am I getting at? I want to make it clear that compared to just about anyone in normal mode (let alone newbies tagging with 20-30 count parties) I should be seeing WAY less BURs pop, let alone pass hands. I don't have access to trading with a measurable population and I don't have access to markets.
By any means, I should be having way less chance of seeing a BUR book than really anyone who plays normal mode.
Yet I see BUR books. Just in the last month I've heard of or seen 2-3 and if I enlarge the timeframe to say, 3 months, I could name at least 5 BUR books changing hands or being read by a handful of players who farm hades.
So really I don't understand how you guys in normal mode aren't seeing books. It doesn't make any sense to me. Given the comparison between 2 players farming hades and a party of 5-7 high demi toons doing a hell run, or abyss run, there should AT LEAST be a COUPLE books being found.
Maybe there's too many players and too few books, or maybe my friends and I are just ridiculously lucky?
I don't understand how books can be so rare for you guys. It doesn't add up for me unless the same people are always winning the rolls and hoarding the books for future reincs or future trade plans.
The sub droprate was increased recently. How much higher does it have to be? For my playing, the droprate of BUR subs feels 100% perfect. Not too much, not too little. Maybe our own little HC microcosm is just out of touch with reality but it's hard for me to believe that normal moders running BUR zones on a regular basis with larger parties (after phantoms I'm guessing 7 players is the very minimum for most of your hell runs) are not seeing enough BUR subs to satiate their appetites.
The problem to me is not the rarity of BUR subs in general but the exceeding rarity of the most desirable ones. How much higher can the droprate go without seriously screwing things up? At every turn, drops are tweaked and this leads to dissatisfaction. First, there's too many. Then, there's not enough. Next we'll be drowning in BURs all over again. Yeah, it sucks for new players that they missed out on the golden age, and it sucks that they missed out on "hades loot pinata". Well, guess what, it also sucks that they missed out on a lot of other things too. Just found a Koly and eager to make a broken-arse barb with 50% dmg boost, crap now it's nerfed? Yeah, that sucks (sorry keith). Just made a staffy and missed the days when you could endlessly swap Eternal Preservations for endless crit imm? Yeah, that sucks. Just made a new toon and missed the bonus xp week? Yeah, that sucks (grrr). Heard stories of multi-starfire spam to pwn everything and the inflict was removed before you could benefit from it? That sucks.
Making everything more and more and more obtainable is surely a good thing for holding the attention of newbies, especially younger players (you know what I mean). But history shows--if not proves--that this is all at a cost. I think the conservative stance that Funky (and/or whoever else) takes in terms of combating population loss is the best way to ensure that people are happy. You can't please everyone all the time, but we're far from displeasing everyone all the time either.
I think we should be more afraid of newbie-friendly changes causing devaluation of not only loot but also people's time, than scaring off newbies due to "it's too hard". I'd rather please vets who worked their butts off than take a crap on their hard-earned loot by making it suddenly way easier to obtain. The fact is that HG does not appeal to a lot of people because they're not looking for the type of commitment the game requires to get rich. Keeping the game appealing to those that DO find HG's economy appealing should be more important than making it more appealing to bored MMO'ers who flit from game to game as they burn out and look for the next flavor of the week.
Really, the best analysis of this issue I've seen was Raj's poke-fun-y post that necro'd this whole thread. Tank is not an exception to any rule; he's not super lucky; it's not like OTHER new players (if they do exist) aren't going to enjoy the same experience: wait and work and eventually you'll get a BUR.
If the only factor, or the most important factor, in determining whether HG lives or dies is how quickly a newbie can get HC--then I rather think that newbie won't stay for very long anyway.
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 21, 2013 1:01:18 GMT
How often should they pop? I'm not sure. I do both Hell and Abyss runs on a weekly basis. Last week I saw a BUR book drop. Other than that, it's been months. But since you ask, over the course of a complete Hell cycle, Tia to Nessus, I think seeing one or two books drop would be encouraging. Perhaps having a 25% chance of a BUR book drop over the course of completing all the Abyssal planes necessary to win a wand part would be reasonable.
I share your concerns. They are well-founded and reasonable. But a look at the server population recently, and compare it to the numbers we had two years ago. We are bleeding players: Decreasing the BUR drop rate and nerfing successful builds have done nothing to stanch the flow. I've seen Tia runs fail to launch because five players could not be found to activate the pedestals. There was a time when Tia runs filled within ten minutes max.
Once more, your point is well-argued and merits consideration, but I disagree. Again, if a player truly believes BUR races are too abundant, he or she is always free to play the open subraces. And, I am always bemused when a player breaks out a level 80 BUR equipped with gear earned by uncounted endgame runs and then complains that the runs are too easy. If they want a challenge, then help shepherd new players toward their first demi-. Or leave that Asmo belt in your bankchest. Turn off HGX. Or try a three player Hell run. Or make a Gnomish Inventor. We are all intelligent people, and there exist challenges if we care to look for them.
I think this discussion could benefit from objective measure of the number of BUR book drops in a set period of time. Is this possible? As it is now, all evidence on the scarcity or plethora of BUR books is simply anecdotal. Some real numbers might help us reach a clearer understanding and common ground.
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Post by chirality on Jun 21, 2013 2:00:37 GMT
I wholeheartedly agree. Now is likely a more appropriate time than in along while to discuss some hard numbers (by this I mean Funky's thread). I remember either last time, or at least "a" time that this topic was discussed, there was some interesting debate regarding exactly what some benchmarks should be. I seem to recall people like gand doing some math in an attempt to gauge how long you should be playing before you get BUR sub(s), how many hours of playtime, in what zones--many different variables. I will go dig back through and see what the consensus was (or maybe there was no consensus). I think a priority should definitely be arriving at some fairly concrete numbers for what a new player can/will/should expect out of progressing through the game. Unfortunately BUR sub is only one facet--what about demi cycle, attunement, even prince fight? The last 2 may seem a bit laughable these days, but eventually it will happen eh? Obviously there are SOME numbers which provide a foundation, dev-wise. Clearly there is a lot of thought (along with the work) that goes into determining and/or tweaking things like droprates. How many BUR subs should be tagged to a single account before it's deemed the player is no longer a desperate newbie? How many hell runs? How many hours of playtime before x1? x2? Attune? Prince win? One thing that always stands out to me is that HG is really not a comfortable place for very casual players. I kind of edged around this a bit in the last post, but as we're all aware, there are many different "types" of "gamers". HG isn't EQ, but it's a lot closer to the EQ side of the spectrum than, say, WoW (?) in terms of "being satisfied with your loot". I don't know, maybe WoW is a bad example--I'm even more out of touch with WoW now than I was years ago, which was "I watch people play it and talk about it with them". The point is that HG seems to cater to different types of people/players than other games. If the overall gaming environment is gradually shifting to accommodate a a shifting set of values--if newer/"better"/more popular games are cashing in more and more on a higher investment:return ratio with regards to time:loot, then it stands to reason that HG is not only "being left in the dust" by Atari and new games, but also is less and less appealing to gamers who can get more enjoyment out of much more casual play with other games. I think if you don't put a lot of time into HG, you're going to either be frustrated with lacking awesome gear/subs, or you're getting it handed to you by vets who are either desperate to keep you around for +1 player, or genuinely really liking you and wanting you to run with them. This game does not of its own doing reward very casual players--those rewards must come from the generosity of older players. If you're feeling like you ARE putting a lot of investment into the game and STILL not enjoying the loot rewards that you think you deserve, then there is a problem. But it's pretty hard to tailor this ratio to please everyone, and trading new casual/on-and-off/short-lived players for a shifted economic environment is a delicate proposition. HG is NOT dying because: A)People are dissatisfied with the management (yes, players leave for this reason, but players also just stop visiting or posting on the forums and voila, problem solved--a good friend of mine who's a longtime vet doesn't care much for certain staff members but he still plays consistently and enjoys it; putting politics and drama "out of sight and out of mind" goes a long way). People get upset over other people, but really if you quit because of personal relationship issues, you're doing it to make a point or "have the last laugh". Many vets have left for this reason but this is universal with any game in which the player has direct contact with developers/admins. Personality conflicts certainly contribute to people leaving but that's been the case for many years (if not since day 1) and that will never change. B) People are dissatisfied with the ability to acquire BUR subs (tank stuck it out) C) People are dissatisfied with the ability to "stay active" doing "hard runs" or "full runs" or "endgame content". Yes, there are stumbling blocks with low population, and yes many vets get bored and frustrated and quit. But look how many remain (albeit with some dissatisfaction), and again look at tank: he may not be enjoying the heady days of "lucky to get into hub server" and "10 hellruns a day", but he (evidently) enjoyed his playtime enough to continue playing here. What's killing the game is "changing times" and this has been discussed so much there's obviously no need to elaborate, but the important part is that it's NOT all the fault of the game itself and its unforgiving grind. So, knowing that entropy is claiming the mod regardless, is the solution to make the game more accessible and "easier"? Shrug. Last time this debate surfaced, many claimed it was. But the problem is that you could give free Rad Gen to every new player and that would NOT have ANY impact on the number of new players who COME here (yeah I know--"my bro would play if he got free sub" "did you hear about this old NWN server? ya, join now you get a cool prize" ). The only way to effectively combat the loss of revenue (players) is to produce new revenue (players). And until Bad's marketing plans end up with a guest appearance on The Colbert Report, there's only so much that can be done. I guess what I'm trying to say is that efforts to RETAIN new players really aren't going to be worth half a corn until the new players are OBTAINED in the first place. I guess I'm just not convinced any amount of loot tinkering will do any good until I see some proof. So far I have yet to see one new player keep playing, and would have quit otherwise, because they were given handouts from vets or because they quickly-obtained loot. On the other hand there's an endless list of players who started strong and burned out quick. Where are they now? Who knows, but I see them all the time--in blue letters at the bottom of my browser window when they log in on the forums to browse.
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Post by KnightErrant on Jun 21, 2013 3:45:19 GMT
I like how Raj's pointing out that the original poster, who was complaining about not having a BUR subrace after a week of being on the server, was now selling a top shelf BUR subrace for 4+ billion four months later has morphed into the same old rant about how they aren't available to anyone anyhow anywhere....except of course for the original poster...(Sorry not trying to bash you but it is a bit too ironic not to say/point out? so not trying to be mean just pointing out the irony)
Not sure how hard it would be to code but how about a new rule that anyone tagged for a subrace book in the lootsplit is forbidden from taking it unless everyone in the lootsplit has it ? No matter where you roll if everyone above you has it they can't take it...
(This would likely lead to players not tagging their accounts for races they're not using but would certainly work for the top tier racebooks everyone use's/wants) (An argument that someone "needs" another copy for their "bot" account making this unfair will fall on deaf ears from me...)
KE.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 21, 2013 4:18:54 GMT
Buy the way, I think the drop rates should go up. By how much? Is that belief based on wanting new players to get near immediate access to BUR races? When do you think players should get access to them, either in raw play hours, or in terms of play track (ie, hit 40, reinc to BUR right away, or...?). Being cute with me, however satisfying, also doesn't help your cause. Funky
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Post by vulp on Jun 21, 2013 6:15:02 GMT
Once more, your point is well-argued and merits consideration, but I disagree. Again, if a player truly believes BUR races are too abundant, he or she is always free to play the open subraces. And, I am always bemused when a player breaks out a level 80 BUR equipped with gear earned by uncounted endgame runs and then complains that the runs are too easy. If they want a challenge, then help shepherd new players toward their first demi-. Or leave that Asmo belt in your bankchest. Turn off HGX. Or try a three player Hell run. Or make a Gnomish Inventor. We are all intelligent people, and there exist challenges if we care to look for them. Not sure what timezone you play but it's almost impossible to start even dis,min run these days. If players don't do any runs how can increasing book drop rate help at all. 3 player hells are nice but when you do enough those the game starts to feel like more single player game than online game.
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 21, 2013 10:24:02 GMT
Once more, your point is well-argued and merits consideration, but I disagree. Again, if a player truly believes BUR races are too abundant, he or she is always free to play the open subraces. And, I am always bemused when a player breaks out a level 80 BUR equipped with gear earned by uncounted endgame runs and then complains that the runs are too easy. If they want a challenge, then help shepherd new players toward their first demi-. Or leave that Asmo belt in your bankchest. Turn off HGX. Or try a three player Hell run. Or make a Gnomish Inventor. We are all intelligent people, and there exist challenges if we care to look for them. Not sure what timezone you play but it's almost impossible to start even dis,min run these days. If players don't do any runs how can increasing book drop rate help at all. 3 player hells are nice but when you do enough those the game starts to feel like more single player game than online game. Vulp, You are correct. As I've said, I've seen Tia runs stall out because five players could not be found to work the pedestals. I am not arguing that an increased drop rate is a panacea to the problem of our declining membership. It is part of a larger solution.
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 21, 2013 10:56:10 GMT
Buy the way, I think the drop rates should go up. By how much? Is that belief based on wanting new players to get near immediate access to BUR races? When do you think players should get access to them, either in raw play hours, or in terms of play track (ie, hit 40, reinc to BUR right away, or...?). Being cute with me, however satisfying, also doesn't help your cause. Funky Funky No, newbies should not have immediate and easy access to BURs. I am only arguing that a fair chance of winning a BUR should be within reach at some reasonable point. As it stands now, newbies are far, far more likely to buy, not win, BUR races. I've made that clear. I am not advocating a Monty Hall campaign. My specific examples of BUR drop frequently included only 1) a complete hell cycle and 2) winning an Abyssal wand part. Any player, in my opinion, who helps kill Asmo or a Demon Lord deserves a better chance at a BUR race. In all sincerity, Funky, I only sought to inject some humor into the discussion. I was neither trolling nor insulting anyone. Please read again my comments more closely and employ the same consideration with which I read yours. To be honest, I feel you have just bombarded me with straw-man questions. Please do not dismiss my arguments as "your cause." Improving the HG experience is a cause we all share. I might be flippant at times, but I've not lost sight of that goal. I ask again, is there some mechanism by which we can objective gauge the BUR book drop rate in terms of both frequency and location?
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Post by Yojimbo on Jun 21, 2013 12:38:56 GMT
After looking at the post in the one about loot drop rates it was mentioned and shown, though I didn't really look at the code, that it seems the odds of a BUR drop being a book, or other BUR consumable, is 1 in 20 perhaps increasing the odds to that even doubling it so it is 1 in 10 would be huge. I would also wonder how difficult it would be to increase the book and other consumable probabilities based on party size I wouldn't take it past 3 out of 20 though I don't think.
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Post by tank on Jun 21, 2013 13:14:24 GMT
I like how Raj's pointing out that the original poster, who was complaining about not having a BUR subrace after a week of being on the server, was now selling a top shelf BUR subrace for 4+ billion four months later has morphed into the same old rant about how they aren't available to anyone anyhow anywhere....except of course for the original poster...(Sorry not trying to bash you but it is a bit too ironic not to say/point out? so not trying to be mean just pointing out the irony) Not sure how hard it would be to code but how about a new rule that anyone tagged for a subrace book in the lootsplit is forbidden from taking it unless everyone in the lootsplit has it ? No matter where you roll if everyone above you has it they can't take it... (This would likely lead to players not tagging their accounts for races they're not using but would certainly work for the top tier racebooks everyone use's/wants) (An argument that someone "needs" another copy for their "bot" account making this unfair will fall on deaf ears from me...) KE. My playtime here has been quite extensive, and the fact that most of my time has been spent in hell/abyss should make up for the fact that I have bur books. But, I've only picked up maybe 3 bur books the rest has been from trading and buying from the auction chest. The amount of good quality bur books I've seen drop I could count on one hand. Should it take years of raiding the very endgame content to get the one BUR book you want? IMO this thread started as a good idea for a newbie who had been in hell runs for a bit, and hadn't seen any trace of bur books, let alone a kolyarut. But I think the underlying problem is something else entirely. None of the new players ever really get to hells, they mostly disappear after lvl 40.
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 21, 2013 13:55:43 GMT
First, Tank is absolutely correct. Focusing exclusively on endgame runs ignores the reality that most HG players have never seen an Abyssal Prince win or an Asmo fight. The Abyss is the playground of a small group of vets, and that is not likely to change any time soon. Many players think that adding even more difficult endgame runs will solve our membership problems. I eagerly await more endgame content, but other changes are needed. I say again, HG's eventual revival or demise rests in our ability to attract and retain new players.
Second, I am dismayed by the number of talented and energetic players lost to other games. The only thread holding some of HG's most talented players are their friends who still play here. When I was a teacher, I quickly learned the key to maintaining interest in a topic lay in showing students that their insights were substantial and necessary components of any successful classroom. Encourage veterans to submit content for inclusion into HG. We have a number of areas which beg addition. For example, some players have suggested a giants run be added to the Black Dragon Knight area. That is a wonderful idea, and we surely have players able to do it justice. Dis is a quick Hell run which passes numerous unusable doors. Surely some talented player can something interesting behind one or two of them. Rogues need a little loving, and have locked doors only they can open will make them more popular. (Perhaps the fiendish occupant behind those doors could drop loot discouraging parties from merely bypassing them, a 20% chance of a BUR book maybe?) We have contests for best open race builds. Why not a contest for new content? I have faith in my fellow players.
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Post by chirality on Jun 21, 2013 16:50:35 GMT
But, I've only picked up maybe 3 bur books the rest has been from trading and buying from the auction chest. "only" picked up "maybe" 3? What is the exact number? 2? 4? How many do you think it should have been? "the rest" is = to how many exactly? And why exactly is the issue with "being forced to resort to trading or buying" BUR books? Should they drop so often that everyone can win the ones they want in a lootsplit without engaging the economy any further? The amount of good quality bur books I've seen drop I could count on one hand. Good quality = which ones exactly? And what is the exact number of these, please? 5? 4? 3? 2? 1? Is this a human hand? No, I don't think anyone said that. Your own thread proves that the whole thing is puffery. You acquired BUR books, and you acquired them at a higher rapidity than many other players, and I think the number and type of BUR books you have acquired (all I know for sure is Koly and Ril which are both top-tier) as well as the rate at which you acquired them is pretty reasonable. My guess is that the whole thing is because you still don't have Rad Gen or HC? I don't get it. Who said that you should have all the BUR subs you want within X amount of time, and that X = 1 year or even 1.5 years or 2 years? That's probably because the new players you're seeing are the same person, and it's not a new player. I watch Webdash and !who all pretty religiously and I don't really see what these new players are that you're referring to. I see returning vets and I see "some" players with 500000 accounts and 50000 x 50000 toons who never really run hells on a regular basis or work on a single toon's demi cycle but instead go into LLs long enough to ask for gear and help with a couple hell and LL runs before starting over. I'm not trying to be overly sarcastic to you, or hostile, but I'm just a bit bemused (and confused) over what the big deal is. To me, it sounds like you've gotten some great loot and you're still not happy. Shrug. Playing the BUR book thing off to blame the devs for making new players give up and leave is tiresome and not helpful to the people who really do play. meh darn quotes
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Post by tank on Jun 21, 2013 18:04:14 GMT
I personally don't have any more need for bur books, I've gotten the ones I needed, mainly due to the fact that there was reserves from people who had been playing for 5+ years with the same content. The simple fact is, it'll take years to farm oinos to get the exact books you need for certain builds to be equivalent to the mass majority of players already here. Just like in my first post, I stated that this sort of thing can be quite deterring to new players.
For the most part, this thread has been about trying to come up with a solution to this problem, not petty greed. (I had given up on the idea since it always comes to the same dead-end mentality, until it got necro'ed again.) I'm also not blaming the devs for anything, merely trying to get opinions on how to remedy the situation. As for new players, I've seen plenty, but sadly they don't stick around long enough to really be memorable.
Anyways, back to ignoring this thread because it's going nowhere.
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Post by chirality on Jun 21, 2013 19:14:14 GMT
Right...so basically what I'm reading is that there is no actual concrete evidence for anything in this thread (lack of bur subs, new players quitting after 40, too hard to grind, taking years to get bur subs).
Nor is there actually hordes of players being driven off by lack of BUR subs.
The bottom line is that there really is no BUR sub situation to remedy, so there is no reason to brainstorm solutions, let alone claim that the mindset or attitudes of devs or players is contributing to new players becoming hopeless and quitting.
The only problem is that the game is old. There is no remedy for that situation.
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Post by tank on Jun 21, 2013 19:21:20 GMT
I'll keep a journal next to my desk labeled "just for chirality" so that you'll have concrete evidence about all the going-ons here. We'll get to the bottom of this so you can sleep better at night
Simple fact is, I started this thread as a noobies opinion, and it's blown up to what it is now. Guess there may be a problem somewhere, or do you need more evidence?
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