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Post by AuBricker on Jun 22, 2013 0:42:07 GMT
Laser, Arek,
Thank you both for the information.
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 22, 2013 0:55:30 GMT
Funky,
The Dialectical Process dates back to antiquity. Indeed, it was most commonly associated with the Socratic Dialogues before Hegel and Marx misappropriated the term and applied it to their hackneyed historicism. But of course, being a JD, you are intimately familiar with the Socratic Method, and deliberately applied the wrong denotation to my use of the term.
Humm. I suspect you are being cute with me.
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Post by chirality on Jun 22, 2013 4:13:54 GMT
That's basically with 1200 hours played running end game runs. I don't particularly care how many subraces drop for me because I don't have any use for them, but I thought it might be a useful thing to measure. I think it's a very useful thing to measure, which is why I was asking your opinion of it. I suppose I should have asked a different question: how does that metric compare with what you think it should be? I'm really not trying to use your words as ammo for any agenda; I'm curious to hear your opinion on the matter because I would value it highly. To be clear, I'm not looking to compare your playtime vs. anyone else's, or trap you into saying something you'll regret. I'm wondering if you think that your BUR subrace rewards are reasonable, and if not, how much higher should the droprate be in order for it to be reasonable? I understand that there's not many other players with comparable farming ability/efficiency so I'm not saying "laser got blah blah, you guys just need to play more". I just have a lot of respect for any perspective you could provide--other than that, I'm only asking because, well, you posted it. I'm not asking how valuable they are to you or any further extrapolation past simply "for the investiture you've made, how appropriate is that reward?" I understand if you're hesitant due to being a staff member now (not sarcasm, honestly). I just didn't see anyone else posting their own numbers, but either way evidently everyone else thinks it's falling far short of expectation. Maybe a better question would be "who DOESN'T think BUR subrace droprate should be increased"? It doesn't really bother me either way as I already have too many races to play with (I get too obsessed with one toon to put much time into "back burner projects" and if something dies I'm back at it till I get it right). I guess I'm asking questions that really I have no place doing since I'm just a player and not a dev. But after all the commotion I'm pretty interested in the "public opinion". Or am I the only one reading and posting who doesn't think it needs to be much higher? Am I just being a jackass arguing about it (ok, answer is yes regardless, but still)? What interests me the most is the divide between "we need more BUR sub drops because we aren't getting enough to satisfy us" and "we need more BUR sub drops/quicker access for the sake of noobs". I can't really tell which it is anymore; or maybe it's both? I am trying to get a handle on your perspective. Nothing more. As hard as it may be to believe--me too. If you look back, my post actually started with the question "how much higher do you think it should be", which so far everyone has evaded actually responding to. It's one thing to say "if we do this the game might live longer, let's give it a shot" but another to say "this isn't good enough for me, make it better" without actually saying how much better it should be. As for the tit-for-tat about "moderately" vs "drastically", whatever; I was talking generally about cries from many players; I wasn't just singling you out. The feeling I get is that people want a drastic increase, because it's hard to imagine that they're only asking for a small increase with so much emotion and unceasing repetition on the subject. Most importantly, what exactly is the difference between moderate and drastic with regards to the droprate? What is moderate? How much is too much? How much is too little? Or are people just yammering for Funky to keep bumping it up bit by bit until everyone's happy? I'm really not trying to be sarcastic here! This is really interesting to me, but it seems exceedingly difficult to pin anyone down on a real answer. If you got 1 sub book after (150? just using a number) hours of play in endgame content, and you think that's not enough, how much more should it be? 2? 3? 5? If you started playing, how many hours before you should get "a" BUR sub? How long before you should get "the" BUR sub that you want? How long before you should win one in a split vs. trading a vet (this seems to be a huge point of contention: yeah I got books but they didn't drop on my runs, someone else already had them)? How many hours in a BUR zone should it take to get a BUR sub? How many "deep" runs should it take?
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Post by Torin on Jun 22, 2013 6:58:19 GMT
I see it from -HC- perspective: In normal game play style, I can sell loot for money and get BUR books from market. I can have a plan how to get a BUR book and work on it (I. e. run Pyramid a dozen times and sell the Artifact). But in -HC- is no market, Its totally random, with an abysmal chance to get a BUR book.
What about this idea: Make a Book shop comparable to the Aug shop. 3 BUR Books and 3 UR Books per reset, with high start prizes. (i. e. 5-10 billions and 200-500 millions). The prizes will adjust over the month. This will be a nice money sink as well. The shop could sell also books "for reincarnation only" at lower prises.
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Post by tank on Jun 22, 2013 11:58:28 GMT
I see it from -HC- perspective: In normal game play style, I can sell loot for money and get BUR books from market. I can have a plan how to get a BUR book and work on it (I. e. run Pyramid a dozen times and sell the Artifact). But in -HC- is no market, Its totally random, with an abysmal chance to get a BUR book. What about this idea: Make a Book shop comparable to the Aug shop. 3 BUR Books and 3 UR Books per reset, with high start prizes. (i. e. 5-10 billions and 200-500 millions). The prizes will adjust over the month. This will be a nice money sink as well. The shop could sell also books "for reincarnation only" at lower prises. while yes, this would be a money sink, it still doesn't address helping new players out. In fact, it's the complete opposite of helping new players out, by only further increasing the cap between new and vet . raising the drop rate would be 'ok', but honestly at this point I think we have much better ideas, perhaps for the longterm, of making bur books set loot, one way or another. raising the drop rate imo is a shortterm fix
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 22, 2013 14:22:07 GMT
I was discussing the need to make the transition into the Hells less painful for newbies with another player yesterday, and he raised a great point. He noted that newbies fresh to the Hells suffer more from the lack of immunity items than they do anything else. He is absolutely correct.
Could the Dev team perhaps add lowbie immunity rings similar to the ubiquitous 75%/25% rings we find on many high-level runs? As set loot, they could not be randomized and augmented. They would be of little use to veterans, but a great boon to newbie players while in no way unbalancing the game. They could easily be added to Uro, DB, Desert, and so on.
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Post by chirality on Jun 22, 2013 19:36:53 GMT
But in -HC- is no market, Its totally random, with an abysmal chance to get a BUR book. I'd say there's an equally-abysmal chance (technically more) of finding something like a Sapphire, yet I have 2 of those in my bank and you just found one recently if I recall the shout correctly. All I'm saying is that I think it should kind of be abysmally-low. Wasn't that the point of "BUR" in the first place? Moving from normal mode economy where there's countless BURs banked, traded, into "starting from ground zero" means we should be expecting to see things in a light of "drop rarity" not necessarily "circulation rarity". (I'm really not trying to insult or attack or belittle you) The aug shop opened up options for HC toons that never existed (if you have the cash) which I certainly didn't complain about, so it'd be hypocritical to shoot down bookstore ideas just because "I don't need it" now. But, at the same time, as has been discussed for years, sub books are a commodity unlike any other drop in the game; they have a very unique value and a very fluid value. Most importantly, as tank points out it really does nothing except to provide a money sink and help vets more than anyone else (see aug shop threads for analysis on the closely-tailored ratio between sucking gold and increasing power). I also think tank is spot-on by saying it's only a "short-term" fix, but I'd even go one further and say it's not only a short-term fix but also has a lot of potential for long-term damage. Once again, look at the history of droprates being tweaked "temporarily" and having far-reaching ripples across the economic pond with reverberating damage for long after the fact. Brick: What's wrong with the massive loads of rings that drop with unbelievable frequency as random loot? Turn off autosell and you may be surprised at how many rings you could stock up on to hand out to newbies. I know I had literally chests and chests of them for just that purpose, until I stopped caring (and what little "demand" I perceived for them amongst new HC players completely vanished). There are also already quite a few set drop rings, meeting the conditions you describe, that do drop on LL runs. Sure, Enervix may be kind of "secret" (and it also sucks really bad) but it does seem to be placed in The Pit just in case a newbie needs it. Sorry if I'm shooting down your idea and I do highly appreciate the "non BUR sub based" suggestion ( ) but I rather think that if people saved rings they don't need to give to newbies it would go a long way. I find really nice rare rings with say, total imm% past 150 on a remarkable basis (100 to one, 70 to another, 80 to both, 90 to 60 to another etc). I used to save these until I got too many to care about. For any player with a decent stock of UR rings, let alone BURs, these are hardly worth wearing--but for a poor player it can be a huge huge help (and the whole "ring swap/pay attention to kb/blah blah DB teaching thing). Maybe this could be a good "gold sink shop" idea? Something relatively useless to vets with loads of cash; they could hand out cash to new players and the players could buy set imm rings as you describe (not too powerful, unaugable, quickly turning useless after the "newbie" milestone has been hurdled). I for one would be happy to hand out gold to a normal mode newbie to let them bypass the randomization system and buy some appropriate rings for their runs. It is true that my scheme of "just turn autosell off and save the rings to give out later" is annoying and reliant on wasting peoples' time.
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Post by Raj on Jun 22, 2013 22:19:11 GMT
I was discussing the need to make the transition into the Hells less painful A bit ot, but such transiction is painful only if such players play too little LL areas (just enough to hit 60, or even 55 only). The gap from LL to hells is huge and running desert/db/thids 5-6 times doesn't prepare first timers at all. Learning well all the LL content could take a dozen of playtrough with different classes of each run, in parties with mates in the same level and skill range (read: no drag) and such experience is certainly enough to provide a fair share of gold and hell-worthy gear. The Wyrm is a great source of immunity rings for cheap; my personal experience, my first immo bought a desert mord ring for 50 millions at level 43; nowadays after enough LL runs you can easily afford decent randomized rare and ur rings for hells, proly some bur ones too by the time you're 60. Arguably, a better source of loot would be hell runs, so a total newbie jumps on those and is awarded with a dozen or more burs the rich vets left info the mass-seller; he played badly a useless toon and people are nice to him saying "it's ok you'll learn". Guess what, people don't learn in this way and when their toon keeps sucking they blame lack of BURs. A FA druid and a Rak sorc were my first demis and a common sight in the past, but those builds seem extincts nowadays, with most newbies buying second/third tier BURs for tanks complaining Half Celestial never drops. So they can keep running hells hoping for a bur book or some incredibly lucky ego item to trade with ME for a radiance/HC/koly or accept the fact that it's wiser to learn better the areas in order to improve and play a pefectly viable UR build. All that being said, bur useful subs are too rare I remember getting my first bur (howler) after the first demi cycle and after 6 months of dedicate hell playing I had all the ones I needed. That was with more trading partners but no subs for auction ever. Nobody complained about drops back then (2008?). In the last year of more casual play but approx 50 demi iterations, 20 prince fights and a obscene amount of solo farming (but NEVER in Oinos) I got 6 bur books from loot, and most of the time in order to win it I didn't have to roll first or beat 9 other players. So, while saying that a ur race is perfectly viable (newbies only read open race or bur builds anyway, while secret/ur should be the suggested ones) and thinking that in about six months of hell farming a guy should collect enough goodies to trade for the good BURs from the old players (not just vets, they are 2-3 at most ), the drop rates are depressing enough. Play as much as I did and get 2 drow nobles, 1 cambion, 1 skaldclan, 1 rilmani, 1 wemic... I don't think it's a fair expectation for any newbie.
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Post by Raj on Jun 22, 2013 23:07:28 GMT
I want to add one more though, that a loot system like the one in place for bur subs, rewarding luck more than skill and dedication, isn't appealing for old nor new players. *
I heard rumours about tokens for XR that look more fair but those aren't definitive obviously, so without changing existing bur books some end run chests (locked and trapped too? Because few bother with pickers nowadays) could have a 25-100% bur race chance.
Malad (25), Cania (50) Nessus (100) Ely (in place of UR aug that lost quite some appeal) and Abo (50), abyss lords (50) and Pelor fight (100) Are some random numbers that seem fair at first glance, then there's time for fine tuning.
That could serve the same purpose locked chests served when the set bur items were actually valuable. Overall better chances after a complete abyss cycle rather than after a demi cycle should motivate some slackers to visit new areas ad well hopefully.
* One could extend the rant to randomization in general, but not having the perfect ego doesn't hold your character progression as much as not having the perfect subrace.
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Post by chirality on Jun 22, 2013 23:47:33 GMT
All players are given all BUR sub tags and all reinc rules are removed (time periods, xp loss).
All XR sub tags are awarded to all players after update drops.
Once sub books are removed as drops, everyone will enjoy better and more frequent gear/consumable loots of appropriate tier (UR, BUR, XR) to compensate for how bad randomization sucks.
Sub book can be traded in at Aug Shop via convo with Pulpa in exchange for player choice of improved-randomized BUR (such as from p3 chest or boss drop), or gold. Gold value differs by how good sub book is: crappy BURs get 3 bil, 2nd tier gets 5, and top tier gets 7.
Aug shop also sells unrand BURs, same system as augs, differs by reset, price determined by similar algorithm with high base price.
Immense gold injection into economy works like a stimulus package as we're all familiar with: look how well it worked in USA.
Now everyone has all the subs they could ever want, no newbie goes hungry, the uber rich vet with banked koly rad gen gets billions more cash to buy more BURs or augs from aug store.
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 23, 2013 0:24:15 GMT
Chirality,
No one is asking for reckless or extreme changes. We are simply seeking ways to improve the HG experience. You speak of your remarkable success in seeing BUR books drop. Keep in mind that most players do not share your good fortunate. For example, I've seen two BUR books drop in recent weeks, neither of which I rolled higher enough to win. Before that, its been months since I've seen a BUR book drop.
You play HC exclusively. Adjusting the BUR book drop rate by a very small percentage for Hell and Abyssal runs would have minimal effect on you, but enhance the HG experience of most other players. Your position reminds me of those who argue against marriage equality. Don't try to shoehorn other players into what you feel should be the ideal playing environment. No one is saying you should be forced to use any BUR books that might drop while you farm. Leave them on the ground to despawn.
Chirality, I know you to be a capable and talented person who knows his way around computers. You could make countless positive innovations to HG. I only wish I had your abilities. Stop repeating that we should not improve HG and put your talents to use making this great setting even better.
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Post by desocupado on Jun 23, 2013 2:01:44 GMT
I'd say the subrace book drop is low when you consider the subrace tier upgrade cost (another book).
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Post by chirality on Jun 23, 2013 2:04:18 GMT
I admit I was joking, but only partly.
When a friend first convinced me to check out HG I was instantly repelled by the subrace system. I hate it. I think it's extremely unique and has brought some great things to the game in terms of continuity. It's a really interesting concept that I haven't ever experienced before or since in similar games.
I think it's brought a lot of trouble to the game and the community, and year after year the balance between negative results and positive results inches closer and closer, until the negative surpasses the positive. I keep wondering when that will happen, or if it's already happened, and each time these threads come up I wonder "is it happening right now?"
I decided playing HC was a good way to allow myself to sidestep my issues and dislike of the subrace system, at least for long enough that I decided whether or not I liked the game: in HC the chance of a BUR was zero for a new player, and the chance of being stuck with an open sub for a really long time was almost 100%. Since seeing the HC mode rules was something that initially attracted me, I decided after more and more hours reading the forums and wiki that HG seemed amazingly well-done, amazingly intense (in terms of community involvement, both from players and devs), and amazingly well-tailored to my fanatical PnP/Forgotten Realms dreams.
Well, time passed, my friend got too frustrated with dying to fire beetles to continue playng HC, and at the same time he got too frustrated with HG to continue played HG. Not longer after, while playing the other game we shared in common (DotA) we got into our worst and last "spat" and we never talked to eachother again.
By that time I'd been welcomed in warmly by "new friends" of "hc community", and even though I was even more of an immature douche than I am now, they were really happy to teach me and have me as a valued producer in their community. The game was going fairly strong, HC had a fair number of people playing, and unlike recent memory, there was no desperate need to bribe a new player with anything and everything imaginable to get them to stick with HG so they had +1 player for runs. Unlike recent memory, I didn't feel as if I was being begged to play, and I didn't feel as if everyone was bending over backward to suck me into the game. I felt like I actually had to learn how to play and be useful in order to feel welcome, rather than being soothed and sweet-talked into thinking I was useful by vets who knew I really was deadweight on their runs because I didn't spend my time actually working to be good at the game.
By this time I kind of started liking the subrace system; it was cool to see people with a (gasp!) UR sub and the dream of getting a better subrace to make a better toon was great motivation to keep me grinding.
This whole time I was reading endless posts from vets who endlessly complained about how hard they had to work when they were my age, how they had to walk 20 miles uphill in a typhoon across a bridge of lava studded with drug addict needles, just to get to school, and they didn't even have textbooks, or a teacher, or a schoolhouse, it was just an iron maiden that they took turns strapping themselves into for 72 hour cycles. I started becoming accustomed to the idea that the game was getting easier and easier as the devs made things easier and easier to please people. The concept of "the old days" being really hard, have actual challenge, actually working to get what you wanted and resulting in a warm glow of satisfaction and pride, these things became ingrained into me. Naturally, thinking myself as some kind of badass sticking it out in HC, I identified with these old cats.
Fast forward and suddenly people are quitting, runs aren't forming, vets are walking away out of boredom. No one wants to sit around ingame shouting for a run, so everyone sits on webdash waiting for someone else to shout it, not realizing that 9 other people were doing the exact same thing, with no hope in sight. Noobs are complaining about attitude problems and harsh grinding, about vets telling them how bad they sucked and about how they can't get the right gear or subrace to feel useful in a run dominated by aging veterans who know the runs so well and play such well-geared toons that they don't even have to try to complete the endgame content.
More and more complaints show up as time passes, and the cries of dismay from the old guard get louder and more insistent: take the silver spoons out of your mouths and learn how to actually work and grind at the game. Learn to enjoy being bored, learn to enjoy grinding, learn to enjoy that feeling of accomplishment for figuring out how to earn something yourself! Consider yourselves lucky that you didn't have to deal with what WE had to deal with--open subraces, harder mobs, +12 gear! Look at all the bells and whistles you guys enjoy compared to what we had! You've got it so easy compared to us!
Fast forward again, and the BUR sub threads keep coming back like herpes. The old guard says "I played 2 years before I got a BUR sub!" "I played 25 years before I found Koly!" "I was farming BURs since your granddaddy was in diapers and I still didn't get the one I want!" "You think they're not dropping now, but I had to really work for it back then!"
This whole time, being out of touch with normal mode, I'm thinking "heh, I hope I find a BUR sub eventually, they're super super rare from what I see!"
Fast forward again, and it turns out that actually, "back then" it was easier than ever to get BUR subs, and I'm a stick in the mud arguing with everyone about it. Suddenly all the old vets are now saying "this is ridiculous for a newbie to expect, I found all the BUR subs I wanted with half the time it takes them to find even 1"
Well, guess who suddenly kind of hates the subrace system again? Yeah, me. What a bunch of crap. Nothing is ever good enough for anyone: it's either too hard or too easy; the old days were either "the golden age" where runs were easy and BURs were everywhere, or the old days were a lot harder and you really had to work to get something.
This whole time I've been thinking that seeing a couple BUR subs in 1 month is not just appropriate, but in fact even lucky, since I thought players used to have to play and work so hard to get one. Come to find out--it's actually the opposite, I have no idea what I'm talking about, and I'm the only one who isn't pissed off at how rare they are to find for all the work people put in for them.
Joke's on me!
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Post by tank on Jun 23, 2013 2:56:42 GMT
how is it hard work to farm things based on chance? there is no challenge to it, it's only a time sink. That giant big humongous rant, and all you have to show for it is the amount of time you've invested, not your actual skill or build making capabilities.
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Post by chirality on Jun 23, 2013 3:39:04 GMT
Were you under the impression that I wrote that to show my skill or build-making capabilities? If so you're a more than "a little" mistaken.
I wrote that post to show my opinion on how frustrating the subrace system is and how unhappy it seems to make people on a perennial basis, no matter what the devs do (which of course is the whole point, but accepting my sheep status defeats the purpose of ranting in the first place). As the whiney noob who started the thread in the first place, you should understand that frustration? Or wait--was your frustration completely based on not getting what you thought you deserved out of the game for the amount of time you had invested into it at that point? And now that you've gotten your subs, you're standing back and taking a less active role in these concerns? Because that's what your last posts seemed to indicate: "i don't need more subs, i just want the mod to survive". Nice play, bro.
I never said I was skilled at playing or building (in this thread or in any other), so I'm really not sure why you mentioned that. And yes, it is all about time investment. That's kind of, well, how can I put this...hmm....the driving force behind the game?
If you think you should be getting rewards based not on time investment, but solely on "skill", my guess is that you not only would be unable to provide a definition for "skill" which is independent of time investment (let's hear it); but more importantly, you probably don't have a great grasp of why random loot exists in the first place (or did you never play any other RPG before HG?).
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