|
Post by Breaking The Silence on Feb 15, 2013 21:30:43 GMT
Hey guys, been trying to figure out a way to get a dex bard with a little bit of damage and THINK I might have found a way, let me know if I can make any imrovements or if I am stuck with having to wait for shard race!
Human: Siren STR8 DEX14 CON14 WIS14 INT14 CHA14
1bard/1monk/1bard/2ftr/1bard/2ftr/1bard/2ftr/1bard/1ftr/25bard/1ftr/1bard
ALL STATS TO DEX!
Starting Feats: Strong Soul, Curse Song
Pre-Epic Feats(In order): SF Illusion, WF Kama, Weapon Finesse, SF Enchant, Ambidexterity, GSF Illusion, Weapon Specialization Kama, TWF, ITWF, Imp Crit Kama
Epic Feats: GSF Enchant, EWF Kama, Armor Skin, Extend, Epic Prowess, Gdex1, Gdex2 Bard Epic Feats: Gdex3, Gdex4, Lasting Inspiration Fighter Epic Feat: Epic Weapon Specialization
Legendary Feats: Hardened Soul, ESF Illusion, LSF Illusion, ESF Enchant, LWF Kama, Legendary Weapon Spec Kama, Greater Weapon Focus Kama
What do ya'll think?
|
|
|
Post by Torin on Feb 15, 2013 21:37:55 GMT
You should have a look at the Bard forum: Mighty Divine Minstrel or Basic Battle Bard.
|
|
|
Post by Breaking The Silence on Feb 15, 2013 21:45:53 GMT
Why what's wrong with this one?
|
|
|
Post by tomaan on Feb 15, 2013 22:40:26 GMT
Why what's wrong with this one? Just a suggestion: try to work out the key stats when you're posting a build: AB= BAB+EAB+LAB+STAT+FEATS+SIZE BONUS/PENALTY+CLASS BONUS+CRAFT WEAPON+MAX AB BONUS (+20) AC= BASE+DEX+ARMOR BASE+ARMOR ENCHANT+SHIELD+WISDOM+FEATS+CRAFT ARMOR+SIZE BONUS/PENALTY+DODGE+DEFLECTION+NATURAL+TUMBLE SAVES = (I have to use [test] engine...not very good at calculating these) You'll also want to put your final ability stats (usually given at lvl 60 with +14 gear) and final lvl breakdown (i.e. B31/M1/F8 or similar). These things make it easier to read and evaluate your build. Lastly: bard-->monk requires an alignment change; make sure you can reach the spot for said change at lvl 2 (not impossible, but can be a little tricky).
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Feb 15, 2013 23:27:03 GMT
I don't understand the objective of this build.
I'm not trying to be hostile!
But what does this build do? It looks like you really want a "normal" Dexer tank. Why bard?
Edit: Well, I see that you want a bard that can do some damage. But you are sacrificing a lot for that. I know there are some old "damage" bard builds out there, but from what I can tell these are really old and they require demi iterations and/or BUR sub.
I am no bard expert but my understanding is that a bard is primarily support role. Yes many "uber vets" or bored experimenters or thrill-seekers like to invent strange builds and see if they work. But in practice this is pretty hard to pull off, especially if you don't have demi iterations, BUR subs, and great gear at your disposal to help fill in the gaps that unorthodox builds tend to suffer from.
The greatest strength of the class is the bard epics, which are crucial lategame. With such low Cha your epics take a really big hit in utility and power.
If you want a Dex tank that does damage, I don't think bard is a great option.
Edit 2: Also please don't mistake my meaning to be "you need BUR sub or your build sucks". That refrain is rather tired, and it's just plain wrong.
However what I *am* saying is that you really want top-end gear and subrace if you want to try turning a given class/role into something else.
Edit 3: Another thing to keep in mind when trying to build a tank bard is that you want to be in the front lines as a bard because your party, especially the other tanks, will be expecting--if not relying upon--your epics.
Well in fact I see that you will not have UUU anyway. But I also don't see what tome you have read; I would highly recommend Trans tome for UUU.
Given your low Cha, your auras will have a relatively small AoE and hence you will likely actually even be closer to the front lines than a caster bard in order to give the other tanks the support the need.
Edit 4: I would highly recommend taking a look at some "less unorthodox" bard builds such as those Torin suggested; and also to digest the contents of the bard wiki page.
Ultimately you are losing some "essential" bard features--additional epics as well as high Cha to make them as powerful as you can--in exchange for damage.
You're not dealing damage if your dead or disabled. Your mages aren't dealing damage if they're silenced. Your tanks aren't dealing damage if they're dead or disabled.
Parties need a bard to address these problems. A bard that doesn't address these problems is likely of questionable worth to most parties.
|
|
|
Post by Paradoom on Feb 16, 2013 2:03:53 GMT
Chirality is right. Bards have a certain roll that is expected of them to perform. If you break that completely like you try right now that will hardly work out without the right subraces and gearsets.. Going a rather tankstyle with your bard though is fine and esp. when u just getting into how the stuff works out. A good plan. But careful with the dex. It will hardly work as well as you might think and the damage is rather low. Plus you dont even hit 30 base points of charisma if I interpret your suggestion right. That is a must have if you want to have at least half-way usable bard epic spells.
As bard you profit from alot of spells from the illusion school. That one will grant you high concealment, which will one of your biggest defence options. You should go and try to get one of the special bard armors that are out there (the uro one is the best at the start to try and get). Those will give you some other spelloptions in the end.
Overall make a complete build breakdown and post it here. Then we can give you real advice. But maybe you should take a peek at the builds section first. There is also a special excel sheet there that will help you plan your toon up to level 60.
Also think about the skills you need to take. E.g. discipline and concentration are also must haves and should at least have 30 points each (better more).
Rethink the class splashes you are suggesting. Instead of monk I´d rather take Paladin and get the good saves from it.
|
|
|
Post by the1kobra on Feb 16, 2013 3:04:47 GMT
Well, as a long time player of dex bards...
The 'modern' dex bard faces a lot of challenges. This doesn't mean you can't make a meaningful character out of the concept, but you'll have to keep some things in mind.
In the days of yore the dex bard was pretty much the only way to make bards (aside from STR bards), the dex bard had significant defensive advantages compared to other bards, given their EV, high AC, etc... you had a pretty sweet deal. These days the bard light armors bridge that gap to some degree.
Some things you'll need to keep in mind: STR checks brutalize you. No real way to avoid it on a char like this, so keep your distance from STR check mobs or get the needed immunity. As a non paladin splash, you'll need to watch your saves. Normally, bards splash paladin (or blackguard), so don't need to worry. The extra damage from WS-EWS-LWS-PWS will certainly help though.
Now, to the build itself...
You -definitely- want 35 bard levels. That way your EV gets a decent %defense and you'll get a good song pool. Now, to do this, you'll need to go 35/4/1 Bard/Fighter/Monk. Now, this does pose a problem, namely if you want EWS, you'll need to get your 4th fighter level post epic. This means giving up 16 BAB and the fourth attack. If you do go for 4 fighter pre-epic for the extra attack, you can only get WS. And, with only 2 damage, it's not even worth going fighter. Besides, the difference from 9 to 8 attacks isn't quite as large as the difference of 7 to 6 attacks, which my razor blade bard gets.
So, here's what I'd do:
Pre-epic(8): Go 20 bard, get the feats: Strong Soul, Curse Song, Weapon Finesse, TWF, Ambidex, ITWF, And either: Blind Fight, Toughness (extra HP is REALLY nice on this build), or: SF Illus+GSF Illus (or enchant) Take monk at L21, get your fourth fighter level at: 27, 30, 33, 36, or 39, and get WS and EWS on that level. Epic(7+5B+3F): Armor Skin, Weapon Focus, EWF, Eprowess, Lasting Inspiration, WS, EWS, G-Dex 8 Read the epic trans tome Legendary(7): LWF, G-Dex 9-10, LWS, L-Soul, IMPR Crit (Or ESF Illus/Enchant), ESF Perform
As an aside, I highly reccommend going with nunchucks instead of kamas if possible.
Edit: Blegh, I forgot legendary artist :/, I'll have to figure that in there somewhere. GET IT. It's a very powerful bard feat.
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Feb 16, 2013 17:55:34 GMT
Kobra am I missing something or does even your tweaked version still have some serious holes, such as the main one of extremely low Cha as Para points out.
I am not clear on the benefit of monk splash. Surely you won't be wearing robes? So this seems to be only for flurry?
With TWF I can't see the defense of this build being very good unless you wear robes. And doing that seems like a bad choice.
How can such a build tank and perform bard duties effectively with only EV conceal as defense, high vulnerability to Str checks, un-spectacular saves, and low AC. Lacking DoD for crit imm means that this toon will likely be dying a LOT to crits, and that's hard to avoid if it is expecting to be in the thick of the action to dish out damage with dual weapons? To be sure even a low-power UUU will help the bard himself, but he will still have to turn tail and run from any non-KD str check.
I don't see the value of either monk or fighter levels to outweigh alternatives such as pal/bg splash or just 4 more bard levels. I just can't picture +6 phys damage even justifying the loss of bard features from 4 fighter levels, let alone the 3 feats. Nor the flurry of blows + evasion from monk splash being worth sacrificing the great bard armors to use a robe for max AC.
|
|
|
Post by the1kobra on Feb 16, 2013 19:30:08 GMT
You only need a 16 CHA for the spells. You can try to get base 28 or the expanded radius epics but doing so will pretty much nullify any hope of making a bard like this an effective tank, pulling that many stat points from DEX will tank your AC. Monk splash helps your AC (a lot) when dual wielding, and yes, robes are your armor of choice with a high DEX. Dual wielding, high dex, robes, EV, gives you a solid enough AC and concealment (70%), also 8 attacks/round. Using a shield cancels your EV, so you might as well go robes/EV. You do get better AC out of a small shield, but that will also tank your offense. Also, parry.
STR checks and the saves are going to be a problem. Even with Strong Soul, fort will be 54 and will will be 61. You can get by on that will save but fortitude will be a problem. Could try to fit epic fortitude there.
Also, LWS gets +12 damage, not 6. +20 damage total with PWS.
Still, with HG as is, you might just want to stick with a rapier wit build, rather than try for dual monk weapons. Even my dual katana bard has trouble with the modern run paradigm, mostly because of constant STR stat checks. That, and your party generally will want those bard epics more than another tank.
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Feb 17, 2013 2:19:42 GMT
Sorry I did mean 12 (derp). Impressive but I guess in my mind spending 4 feats and fighter splash lends itself more to a DPS tank than a bard. The robes/monk splash thing was more to say, well if you want to take full advantage of monk splash robes then yes robes with no shield is optimal. For a hardcore toon (such as I would play) then you aren't losing so much in practice by forgoing the "bard armors"--we can't reasonably expect much in the way of hellsets (tbh azz3 is doable, and much more realistic than malad atm, although I don't have any bards atm to give it to ), and the Uro armor is nice but gets less "good" the higher level you get. For a normal toon however it seems a shame to go robe given the existence of some very nice "bard armors". As for relying on EV, most enemies (even much trash from my logs) by LLs + have at least BF which seriously impacts conceal. I'm not sure off the top of my head what this does for 70% conceal but it takes 85% down to 72. I rarely see mobs respecting full conceal even by Desert. Well I'm not saying it's worthless but 60ish (65?) conceal seems a hard bargain as your only/main defense. Dual wielding impacts your kit. For "poor" players it can be noticeable to lose a full slot's worth of defensive abilities, by dropping shield or for another example fist monk losing gloves. This isn't a huge deal and I'm not directing this at you Kobra; just pointing it out in general as something to keep in mind. Anyway, Silence: Kobra is far far far my veteran and superior in build matters, even moreso for bards. I think if he says it will work then you should be fine I was just trying to play devil's advocate by forcing you to look at the downsides to consider. I used to spend a lot of time making and playing carpet tanks, and nowadays my mindset for "advice" is to focus on defense and survivability first with any tank toon. After you get the gear, subs, and demi iterations, it's a lot easier to feed your ambition and stave off boredom by reinc into a "flashier" build. For a Siren bard I just think the lack of epics/epic power will be a bitter pill to swallow in exchange for physical damage. And in a day and age in which everyone seems to have a high-DPS tank champing the bit to show off how quick they can kill stuff, a player that tries making a supbar "DPS" build may only be disappointed and frustrated when "real" DPS tanks outshine him constantly and likely don't leave much room for him to rack up an impressive damage log himself. Again I am not saying that Siren is bad, that one needs a BUR sub to pull of unorthodox builds, or that bard is not allowed to deal damage. I'm just saying that in my own experience these things rarely turn out as well as you hope, and the build on paper looks a lot better than it does in practice. I see bard epics as an amazing tool for increasing the tankiness and survivability of a bard (not just the rest of the party). Loading yourself up with these nice epics seems to go a long way toward patching holes that are created by bard having to balance Str, Cha, Dex, support, offense, etc. Just for one example, I think DoD alone would be a massive boost to survivability. Say what you want about parry but lacking crit imm means you will get critted, a lot, and probably die, a lot. Again consider that with a tiny AoE for UUU, this bard will have to be right in the thick of it to provide benefit to the other tanks. Bard doesn't have the most hp, and in robes your phys imms are far from impressive (combine pens and it's not so pretty). For a staffy or monk this isn't such a big deal due to much higher conceal and AC, but again 70% conceal is far from 80, 85 or 90. These numbers look very close on paper but ingame after Listen it's a really big gap.
|
|