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Post by Mudeye on Feb 20, 2013 16:54:52 GMT
The Orb spells added by HG indicate that the target conceal level has an effect on spell damage. Does listen have an effect on the damage? Is the target conceal modified by the casters listen/blind fight?
Also, is the ability to select targets or cause damage for other spells effected?
Wondering if Listen is of much use to an arcane caster type.
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Feb 20, 2013 17:41:48 GMT
Listen/Blind Fight does not affect Orbs or Bigby's Fist. Selection of targets is not affected.
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Post by chirality on Feb 20, 2013 19:00:31 GMT
If it's any help for your build plans: I've experimented with this myself a decent bit (current main toon included). (By this I mean that I have fought mobs from most zones of the game, including hell mobs and paragon+ via Hellgate, using just about every spell I can think of that could be effected by conceal, in order to try coming to my own conclusion of usefulness) I am unsure of the value of either the feat or skill ranks, unless you really have empty space that you don't want filled with anything else. For an arcane this translates to wizard or wiz CC theurge (and much less so or the latter). I'm not sure that I would necessarily change my mind; I'm not sure I necessarily regret my choices with such toons. But I really would not recommend it. I won't comment on what certain benefits I think I do see, as it's been a while since I actually tried doing a rigorous test. And, without running a logger regularly (in fact my default is Log=0), I can't easily show you any numbers. Suffice to say that I think investing either the feat slot or the skill points is almost guaranteed to be a waste, when compared to other choices. In nearly each case of apparent "usefulness", once I "zoom out" and take a look at the bigger picture again, it comes full circle to say: Sure it's kind of nifty, but couldn't I have gotten more mileage out of something else instead? --helping land touch attacks...meh, use mord scrolls if you can't land BC... --sure Loca Matriarch has "only" effective 58% conceal after BF so I spend less time spamming Detonate on her...meh...who cares... You get the picture I think Edit: As far as defensive benefits from BF are concerned, I similarly am not convinced of any (defensive) merit to this feat on HG for most toons. NWNWiki: Blind Fight : --The bonus to attack that invisible creatures normally get is +2. This same bonus is also normally given to creatures attacking a blind creature. Both sources of this bonus are negated (in melee) when the target has blind fight. --This feat affects both normal and touch attacks (though the modifiers to attack rolls that this feat negates are never applied to touch attacks). --This feat prevents one from losing AC (due to being caught flat-footed) when attacked by a hidden melee attacker, provided the attacker is heard. (If the attacker is spotted, the defender can avoid being flat-footed without this feat.) It does not, however, negate any other condition for being caught flat-footed, nor does it prevent the other effects of being flat-footed (such as being subject to sneak attacks).As far as I can tell these benefits don't translate into much without either high Spot, Listen, or both. And even most tanks don't bother investing in both BF *and* high Listen due to the redundancy for beating conceal (some do take both for a few reasons, as I do on my tanks if there's "room"). Again given my suggestion that only a wizard really has the "room" to invest in BF and/or Listen/Spot, the fact that even a wizard with plenty of skill points to "max" CC Listen/Spot likely still has such low Wisdom and lack of Listen means that I don't see much to be gained defensively either. It's possible to get high Listen/Spot ranks with Able Learner/lootsplash, but again due to the virtual impossibility of "fitting in" high +Listen/Spot from gear, and a low Wisdom score, I can't see this being worth much even for such a buld. Also, to clarify one portion of your question/Were's response--Edit:I'm not saying that his answer wasn't perfectly clear, or that the documentation in question isn't perfectly clear; just trying to help hammer this point home: Orbs (and bigby 8 iirc) do receive modified (read: reduced) damage based on a mob's conceal--but only their BASE conceal. I.e. any effects your toon has, or effects on the mob, which lower effective conceal (Listen/BF/Invis Purge) still do not impact the reduced damage from these single-packet spells. For this reason, most players consider it more efficient to use save-based/AoE spells that ignore conceal, in place of Orbs, for mobs with troublesome conceal. (Much like a tank, even if your Orb AB is really high, the math shows that over time you'll lose more DPS from conceal-reduced damage + rolling a 1 on attack roll)
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Post by Paradoom on Feb 20, 2013 20:59:43 GMT
Nice details chiralty. Let me sum that up in short:
On a caster it doesn´t grant you much to have either BF nor listen. But if you want to fit something in then my suggestion is to take listen IF you plan to use any kind of touch attacks on a regular basis like e.g. detonate. For the orbs it doesnt change a thing. If you want to boost the power of your orbs use empowered ones and try to max out your main stat (int or cha). It also get´s more powerful with higher levels. As a general rule of combat for a caster: AOE > Single Target (with a few exceptions of course).
As a tank, if you see a way always take both. Listen helps to land more attacks, due to the efective conceal reduction, and Blindfight your defence (see above) plus it grants you a second attack roll when blinded. Both important things that help to survive and deal damage. If you are starved on int take Blindfight.
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Post by Mudeye on Feb 20, 2013 21:11:23 GMT
Ok thanks for the replies. The pearls I see from this for an arcane caster are: 1) AOE ignores conceal, but single target spells don't usually. 2) Listen/Blind Fight don't help AOE or Orbs 3) Touch Attacks do benefit from Listen/BF. Of course it's a little suicidal if to use touch attacks without good defense.
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Post by gandoron on Feb 20, 2013 23:20:37 GMT
Are you sure that listen/BF affect touch attacks? I have run a sorc, wiz and PM extensively in Hells/Abyss, and I have never had issues with not having Listen/BF. The PM in particular uses a number of touch attacks like BC. I think you are better off putting those points in conc, Lore, tumble disc (shield slag), spellcraft, taunt/persuade or even CA. With a wiz/PM you have a lot more options, but even then I think listen is basically a waste. Other options include UMD, Search/OL/DT, trapping, appraise, etc.
-G
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Post by chirality on Feb 20, 2013 23:24:41 GMT
I'm pretty sure it does.
I could be wrong.
Either way the whole point of my post was to say, Don't Waste Your Time With It
So as far as your recommendations about "better off", I'm not sure why you think I was advising otherwise.
Edit: By the way, why do you think that Listen/BF *doesn't* effect touch attacks?
Conceal affects touch attacks (or do you disbelieve that as well?). BF/Listen reduces effective conceal to help land attacks. Touch attacks suffer from conceal, so why would it not?
The fact that your toon X doesn't have a problem landing touch attacks, doesn't mean that BF/Listen can't help land them. If you never have trouble landing BC, that's great for you. I, on the other hand, find many mobs with high conceal to be hard to land a touch on. Commonly this is due to enemy party buffs--Mass Camo etc.--and for these mobs a common way (for those I play with anyway) to deal with this issue is by mording the conceal buff (or preventing outright via DoM spawn). It is much easier to land BC on a mob without Mass Camo, than with. If you never noticed, that's fine, but don't claim that it doesn't exist, because it does.
Now does the fact that conceal effects touch attacks, mean that BF/Listen helps? I don't know. Like I said, I think it does based on my experience. However, also as I stated above, I don't regularly run a logger program, or even base NWN logging, so I can't pull out any numbers to prove it. But a claim like "I never miss them" is just as insubstantial.
But even if it does help, that still doesn't mean that I think it's worth taking.
Again let me clarify that my entire purpose in this thread was to say that I think BF/Listen is a waste of time on a caster.
If you missed that, I suggest you re-read my (admittedly long) post.
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Feb 20, 2013 23:38:48 GMT
Listen does affect touch attacks. I'm not sure about Blind Fight.
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Post by chirality on Feb 20, 2013 23:43:26 GMT
Interestingly enough, I just realized that although I claimed to not have any numbers available, I in fact did mention 58% conceal on Loca Matriarch in the earlier post.
Well I don't have a log quote to "prove" that this is the number I saw, but I just did this less than 48 hours ago and I'm positive I was receiving 58% conceal.
My toon has BF, and no ranks in Listen (I can check my actual mod ingame to be sure, but clearly my Listen score is negligible).
Thus, it seems logical to assume that BF does reduce conceal. Why? Because to my knowledge there is no buff that grants 58% base conceal, and even for inherent conceal 58% seems like an odd number. To me it looks more like the sort of number you see after base conceal is reduced by something. And I don't think my Listen mod is effecting it one way or the other.
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Post by gandoron on Feb 21, 2013 1:40:41 GMT
I run logs on almost all my runs. I tend to BC on my PM most. is BC no longer a touch spell or does the touch AB/conceal check not show up in the NWN logging?
You can clearly see the melee conceal checks from KE and BBOD, but not from my bestow curse.
I believe the "spell resisted" aspect only relates to the ability drop. The SR drop from BC works on the mobs below and the visual.
-G
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 22:18:42] Gandoron PM Elay casts Bestow Curse [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 22:18:42] * 1 temporary caster level applied * [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 22:18:42] Brood Serpent attempts to resist spell : spell resisted [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 22:18:42] Brood Serpent : Will Save : *success* : (18 + 53 = 71 vs. DC: 61) [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 22:18:42] Brood Serpent : Spell Penetration : *success* : (17 + 76 = 93 vs. SR: 90)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 22:19:32] Gandoron PM Elay casts Bestow Curse [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 22:19:32] * 2 temporary caster levels applied * [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 22:19:32] Pit Fiend attempts to resist spell : spell resisted [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 22:19:32] Pit Fiend : Will Save : *failure* : (8 + 45 = 53 vs. DC: 62) [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 22:19:32] Pit Fiend : Spell Penetration : *success* : (7 + 77 = 84 vs. SR: 76)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:17:55] Gandoron PM Elay casts Bestow Curse [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:17:55] * 3 temporary caster levels applied * [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:17:55] Asmodeus : Spell Penetration : *failure* : (11 + 78 = 89 vs. SR: 90)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:18:56] Gandoron PM Elay casts Bestow Curse [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:18:56] Asmodeus attempts to resist spell : spell resisted [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:18:56] Asmodeus : Will Save : *success* : (11 + 55 = 66 vs. DC: 55) [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:18:56] Asmodeus : Spell Penetration : *success* : (20 + 75 = 95 vs. SR: 63) [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:18:57] Knight Errant Rona Battle Priest attacks Asmodeus : *hit* : (13 + 88 = 101) [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:18:57] Daremyth casts Freezing Sphere [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:18:57] Knight Errant Rona Battle Priest attacks Asmodeus : *target concealed: 72%* : (8 + 83 = 91) [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:18:57] Knight Errant Rona Battle Priest damages Asmodeus: 0 (0 Fire) [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:18:57] Knight Errant Rona Battle Priest damages Asmodeus: 0 (0 Fire) [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:18:57] Knight Errant Rona Battle Priest damages Asmodeus: 11 (11 Sonic)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:22:48] Gandoron PM Elay casts Bestow Curse [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:22:48] * 3 temporary caster levels applied * [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:22:48] Asmodeus attempts to resist spell : spell resisted [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:22:48] Asmodeus : Will Save : *success* : (4 + 54 = 58 vs. DC: 58) [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:22:48] Asmodeus : Spell Penetration : *success* : (4 + 78 = 82 vs. SR: 76) [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 15 23:22:48] Black Blade of Disaster attacks Asmodeus : *target concealed: 88%* : (18 + 30 = 48)
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Feb 21, 2013 2:14:08 GMT
BC does not force a touch attack roll. It is indeed "Touch" in it's range, but it is not like Combust, where an attack must succeed vs AC/Conceal.
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Post by chirality on Feb 21, 2013 2:32:25 GMT
Now that is something I certainly never noticed. Very interesting! Thanks to both of you for this revelation Yup--afaik the SR drop works regardless of any hostile defense (maybe a mob immune to the SR drop though? no idea there).
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Post by gandoron on Feb 21, 2013 3:26:44 GMT
Not that I need a full list, but what arcane spells besides detonate are touch-attacks? All the ones I can think of have a pretty significant range.
-G
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Post by chirality on Feb 21, 2013 4:26:49 GMT
Honestly that's the only one I can think of offhand too :/ And to be honest I did think that helping land BC was a possible" benefit of BF...I was certainly receiving a placebo effect at any rate...and as my "story" earlier showed, I certainly did think that removing conceal buffs helped land it...well, all my builds are an experiment Due to other possible benefits I'm not sure it was a complete waste...well, I don't even want to venture there without loggers especially after the latest embarrassment... I would say I think it's a complete waste for anyone other than me though Even with detonate cheese on Matriarch, it's really not a very great spell... I will take a much closer look at "touch range" vs. "touch attack" for other spells...and see what I can find.. Edit: Well even Ghoul Touch, Vampiric Touch doesn't require a touch attack. I can't find a single (vanilla) arcane spell requiring a touch attack. Just because this subject is interesting to me at the moment, here is a quote from NWNWiki Touch Attack that gives some food for thought: "No other modifiers ever apply to these rolls, nor are the ability modifiers changed due to weapon finesse or zen archery. As usual, a natural roll of 20 (before adding the attack bonus) is automatically a hit, and a natural 1 is automatically a miss. Critical hits are only threatened on a natural 20, and the confirmation roll is always the same as the attack roll (i.e. the confirmation roll is always a natural 20). Immunity to critical hits does not apply against touch attacks. Touch attacks never qualify as sneak attacks."
The following paragraph describes how "all scripted attacks" are treated as touch attacks (and only touch attacks), which is interesting, but I'm not sure how accurate that is on HG. The wiki author states that this is an engine limitation, so it may be universal here as well? Either way kind of interesting. It looks like really only a cleric (and then most likely threader rather than ploder--to be sure heal/inflict spells can always be useful but I think generally ploders are way too busy casting other spells anyway) would get much any mileage out of BF/Listen, as far as offensive spellcasting goes (heal/inflict spells are touch attacks iirc).
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Feb 21, 2013 5:42:09 GMT
"Touch Attacks" are scripted on HG. Combust, Detonate, Vampiric Touch, Ghoul Touch are four right off hand.
I don't recall if the heal/harm spells require touch attacks.
The touch attack is an AB attack vs the target's AC and concealment.
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