How are the suggestions over the top? Look at some of the other races, they benefit in their class of choice like you wouldn't believe, but the WC race gets NO charisma? Believe that hurts a lot. I would rather use skaldclan than that XR race IMO.
Maybe change stats to 4str/4dex/4cha/2int. Looks better than the current.
Why do you need CHA on a WC? You will most likely start as a Bard so you are forced to a starting base CHA of 11 you only need 16 base CHA to cast all the Bard spells and if you went for max DwD levels you only get L4 Bard spells so only need 14 CHA. I don't think you gain uses for additional CHA or it isn't much because I don't think my Caster Bard has that many songs. This means a bonus beyond 2 or 3 CHA is useless for most WC builds. If anything were changed and I'm not sure it is worth it is change the INT bonus to CHA.
I was assuming that the other stat bonuses more than make up for having to invest Cha at creation.
Again compared to other XR subs it doesn't look too bad. It gets quite some flex for dropping points into Cha with +4 to all 3 phys and +2 Int to help with skills. 10% phys imm has good synergy and the bonus feats look like they help quite a bit.
Skaldclan has +4 Cha sure but also doesn't receeve the useful qualifier feats, the phys imm, and has less net stat boost. Does investing Cha at creation completely negate the +2 Int for more skills and the +4 Con?
As best as I can tell the only 2 DC spells a WC has to worry about are Balagarn and Warcry?
Honestly how big of a concern is maxing DC for a WC for Balagarn? Or Warcry which seems like more of a party buff (and receives +2 DC for WC anyway)
I'm honestly not trying to shoot down anything just for the sake of argument, nor am I trying to pretend that I'm familiar enough with WC to really know what I'm talking about
But just looking at comparison with other subs it seems "not underpowered", after all the fact that WC suffers from "MAD (multiple attribute dependency) like many other classes, doesn't justify it getting overall better stat bonuses than other classes
Again look at the XR bard, it looks pretty even, surely bard XR would like more +stats too but what is the justification for that?
It doesn't look like WC requires full bard level 6 spells to be a good build, nor does it require Cha for DC, it looks to me more like some builds want 16 Cha and others don't care, well I'm just looking at builds on the forums and the class documentation, it doesn't seem to indicate that everyone thinks every WC needs 16 Cha and level 6 bard spells, some (most?) of them don't even have that many bard levels in the first place
XR Bard: Human +4 Str +4 Dex +2 Con +4 Chr Extra Music, Lasting Inspiration, Lingering Song, Artist, Curse Song Very Fast, SR 20 +1 level
XR WC: Dwarf +4 Str +4 Dex +4 Con +2 Int WF Mace/L.Hammer/H.Flail, Dodge Toughness, Artist, Extra Music 10% Physical Immunity
I guess if anything the WC could stand to lose full +4 Con? Str and Dex is hard to lose for either bard or WC, so I could see an argument for needing Cha more than Con
But I don't think adding more and more extras as Brute suggests is balanced
How is it adding more? The Stat distribution equals out to the SAME. Only thing I changed was the con for the cha, and yes most WC builds I see running around are capable of and USE their level 6 spells. I rarely see any DWD based chanters running around, and yeah the no charisma bonus DOES hurt as taking bard doesn't give you the free charisma it takes away 5 and to put another 5 points of cha in costs a heck of a lot of stat points. No personal attack at you chiralty but it seems as though you have an argument for everything, even after you said you have no experience with the class itself. I have little experience with it but I have enough to know that the charisma bonus REALLY helps and if the XR WC sub race doesn't get any I can almost bet my limbs that you will see a player pick Skaldclan over that XR race if they were forced to play a WC after they recieve it.
As I said, no personal attack but it makes no sense to NOT give a XR sub race that is capable of using 6th level bard spells no CHA bonus but instead give them con which can easily be taken up to 16 without any bonuses because of the +2 con and -2 cha.
That is also my suspicion, but I'm not sure why that's so bad. Again yes maybe a net -2 Cha for an XR bard quasi is a bit off. But I think Shard wasn't too far offtarget here. Maybe +Cha is needed but I think not added on top as has been suggested previously.
The question I posed earlier: Is DC really a big concern for 2 spells? Balagarn and Warcry...? I don't get it...yes, as Deso points out with his @creation point cost analysis, lack of Cha is very expensive and likely could be addressed. Yes I am not a WC player but I don't get the DC thing at all, that seems an extremely minor point of this quasi class which seems to be oriented on tanking and chanting not DC casting
edit: Not even trying to argue or gather more ammo for further argument, I'm just trying to understand why DC is such a concern for this subrace
To condense my earlier "argument" down all I'm saying is that, look WC suffers pretty bad from MAD. As a bard quasi it does by definition, having to juggle Str Dex as a tank, enough Cha for spells as a bard, enough Int for skills, enough Con to not be a pushover
But like any other MAD situation, it can't get it all just because it needs it
+4 Str Dex is good I think no one can argue that +2 Int is a help, maybe not preferable to Cha but either way it helps +4 Con is a help, maybe not preferable to Cha but either way it helps
Deso's analysis reveals that net -2 Cha hurts pretty bad, but still this point devotion is partially ameliorated by not having to invest as many points into the others, for instance you could leave Con at 10 or even 8 and still not be too fragile, and +2 Int is always nice for a tank
Also the Cha thing kind of misses the point that just being a dwarf needing Cha hurts in and of itself, this is just the way it is, that's why no one really wants to play Aleithian over rak, +7 Cha isn't that impressive with -2 base Cha to start with, resulting in increased point buy from creation for that stat
The way I look at it, the current spread is definitely more favorable for build without as many bard levels, but it still looks decently flexible
Of course XR sub with -2 to a main stat just looks bad no matter how you cut it
I was just trying to look at what advantages there were
edit: also could it not be a typo or mistake, perhaps it was meant to be +4 Cha not Con from the start? With such a theory it starts to look a lot more like a linear upgrade from Skaldclan, just building up more on top of that rather than a different base spread from the start
Spells Spell DCs for certain spells (those listed below) are equal to 10 + spell level + 9/10 of the Warchanter's Strength or Dexterity modifier, whichever is higher. Caster levels for those same spells are equal to Dwarven Defender level + Bard level, including legendary levels if control class is Dwarven Defender or Bard. Level 1: Balagarn's Iron Horn*, Joyful noise* Level 2: Sound Burst* Level 3: Displacement*, Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Edge, Haste* Level 4: Hold Monster*, Neutralize Poison*, War Cry* Level 5: (none) Level 6: Dirge, Mass Haste*
Modified spells (marked with *) Balagarn's Iron Horn (7/6 of DD level added) Joyful noise (grants Silence immunity for 1 turn instead) Sound Burst (7/6 of DD level added; causes deafness on failed Fortitude save) Displacement: When cast on self it grants as much concealment as Wizard's Ethereal Visage as long as you wear Robes or Light armor Haste (Grants target +1 attack per round - can be cast on others) Hold Monster (petrifies foes; treated as Transmutation; DC increased by DD class level / 3) Neutralize Poison (grants poison immunity for 1 round/level) War Cry (DC increased by 2 and grants allies a +10 bonus against knockdown checks) Mass Haste (treated as Evocation; casts a Large Earthquake effect at the targeted location; DC increased by 2)
So again CHA isn't worth anything for a WC because DC uses STR or DEX and I really don't know of a single WC build that goes for CHA assuming you could use CHA for DC since you won't be able to hit anything since CHA can't be used for AB for any of the WC weapons. I am not opposed to having a CHA bonus but this "need" for it that people have is puzzling since it seems based off this strange idea that there is a real advantage to having more then 14-16 base CHA on a WC.
I just want to clarify my points also and just list them as precisely as I can #1 Few if any WCs take something other than Bard at creation and this forces an investment of 11 CHA which is equal to 13 because of racial penalty #2 All WCs qualify for L4 spells requiring 14(16) CHA and many opt for more Bard levels and qualify for L6 spells which requires 16(18) CHA I have put the effective investments in parenthesis #3 CHA beyond 16(18) has no purpose outside of potential L7 slots from gear and metamagic spells in those slots
I said earlier I support changing the +2 INT to +2 CHA and to be clear I am not opposed to a +4 as I suspect even a WC with only L4 spells could pick up 1 or 2 metamagics and find a use for L5 and/or L6 spell slots.
If you don't add charisma, as I stated before, you will lose A LOT of STR and/or DEX from having to take charisma to 16 for the spells, it's the equivalent of a caster sorcerer/wizard taking the 18cha/18int, concerning stat points.
Auto Max FoD: This translates to a damage differential of approximately 10-16 points. The dice roll damage calculation is the lowest part of the spell damage: 3d6 being the die roll variable vs. 3/level for the constant. Assuming for purpose of discussion an "average" of 10-14 (some subtle math is involved in calculating die roll averages but it's not as simple as 3 x half of d6 = 12) points for the dice roll variable before any metamagic feat is applied, maximized doesn't provide too much benefit.
Yes it DOES provide nice benefit especially when this improved damage is being dealt to multiple targets with each cast of the spell via AoE FoD which seems to be the expectation, and spamming this AoE FoD with 10+ extra dmg would surely end up stacking nicely.
Empower would be more effective boost with d6.
Regardless this doesn't seem to be anything more than a bit of fluff. Cool fluff to be sure, but what about something a bit more useful? I don't think granting XR PM sub AoE FoD would be too much to ask, allowing them to gain benefit of Anubis Plate without having to wear it and leaving the option open for better armors.
Given the Silent Spell feats in conjunction with the Auto Max FoD, it seems that these subs assume/take for granted that such PMs will be wearing this armor, which surely is very popular but I think less constricting options would be nice.
If that would be too powerful than I'd prefer Auto Emp vs Max for that racial feature.
I really like the idea of improving FoD with these subs as FoD (especially Anubis FoD) is considered a trademark of PM. But I don't think it would be unreasonable to provide a bit more powerful boost, if one could be found that's NOT unreasonably powerful and also not unreasonably difficult to implement (auto metamagic feat seems nice and simple and thus attractive).
What about something like applying a neg imm inflict, perhaps either a set value such as 2-5% and not stacking, or something like 1% per cast and stacking up to 5%?
That starts getting to be complicated from every angle (implementation, documentation, explanation to players) but especially for an XR sub/EEs I just don't see this as being much more than a fluffy boost for lower areas
To clarify I think this is a really cool concept and I'm not intending to act ungrateful or overly-critical. I'm just wondering if it could be improved a bit more to have greater impact especially in EEs areas which I imagine would laugh at +10 neg dmg AoE FoD.
edit: yes I know I didn't provide much detailed math analysis above but, the point remains that the dmg improvement doesn't translate into all that much, and given this special effectively translates to +constant neg dmg on FoD it would be nice to see something more useful that BUR pm subs don't offer, along the lines of XR sorc breach imm
Auto TA? That sounds insane. With that benefit I'd take XR theurge over XR Wiz any day (especially if "special imm" level 7s isn't changed to something more desirable) if I got free TA out of it
edit: In fact--assuming wiz never gets improved--I'd probably consider wiz as finally killed past the point of no return with this, as Theurge is already offering a lot more than wiz in many ways, and free TA would overload the scales by a lot, I would never pick wiz over theurge with such potential especially with stats being so good as to ameliorate the "downsides" of theurge which even in the current atmosphere are really not so bad unless you're obsessive min/maxer / obsessive DC addict
XR Rapier Wit:
How bout Conversion rather than Charm Monster? The latter sounds pretty weak, and given some of the other specials amongst other subs I don't see it fitting in (other than flavor-wise which of course is great)
Or maybe I'm not clear on what exactly "charm monster like a vampire" means.
XR Uni Halfling:
This looks kind of weak
Even given +9/+5 Str/Dex I don't get the -2/-4 Con/Wis pens. That looks more "balanced" than necessary.
Yes I have been meaning to add that free TA does seem overpowered and Chir I think that really equates to +7 STR and +7 DEX on that Uni Halfling since IIRC Halfings get -2 STR and +2 DEX I would assume since you get such a massive jump to both STR and DEX they are penalizing you in another place and in a place most can take it fairly well.