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Post by desocupado on Mar 11, 2013 2:26:15 GMT
Shifter Being non-elf makes monks splash much less advantageous (I really enjoyed my "heavy claws" build style - using able learner for maximum Tumble and extra unarmed attacks)
Theurge Is it necessary to give +6 off stat and Great Stat+2? Suggestion: GSF Divination if male instead of of Great Wisdom II and GSF Conjuration instead of Great Intelligence II if Female. (these are unpopular schools for each respective class)
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 11, 2013 2:53:47 GMT
Is the idea of XR subs to be so good that they help balance inherent class building/desirability difficulties? No. Too few players will have them for them to be good vehicles for balancing. You'll have to be specific for your remarks to be of any use. Which specials? We ARE interested in addressing that, but to generalize that to 'balance reasons' is to render it meaningless. We are always concerned with balance, but as I indicated above, subraces are a poor vehicle for addressing some balance concerns. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 11, 2013 2:58:23 GMT
Shadowdancers are very skill choice poor as a tank, and dwarf doesn't exactly allow for able learner. Instead of ESF Disc, LSA disc and/or LSA parry (or maybe bullheaded+snakeblood) would be much more useful and allow them to actually get required tank skills As I remarked to deso above, I'm interested in seeing a more comprehensive look at LSAs and enablers: I'd love to see a comprehensive look at LSA enabler feats - shard avoided them, while acknowledging the problems caused. If you or anyone else wants to take a stab at a list of the subbies that flat-out NEED them (with explanations), I'd love to see it. I'm going to be hard to sell on them without a more sweeping look, though I appreciate the input on SDs. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 11, 2013 3:01:05 GMT
Suggestion: GSF Divination if male instead of of Great Wisdom II and GSF Conjuration instead of Great Intelligence II if Female. (these are unpopular schools for each respective class) A more appropriate way to fix the unpopularity of the schools would be to add spells to them. Dumping them on subs lards them down with feats that a) players will likely view as useless and b) may become much more powerful should the schools fall into favor. This creates an inherent balance problem. Funky
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Post by desocupado on Mar 11, 2013 3:23:29 GMT
The 4 main skills for tanks are: -Discipline (Slag/KD and other bad stuff checks) -Listen (concealment piercing) -Parry (critical damage immunityresistance and a few handful checks if I'm not mistaken) -Tumble (+12 AC) Need no LSABard and Monk Need just DisciplineRogue Pale Master (may not need Parry due critical immunity and don't need Tumble due Bone Skin) Need just TumbleRanger Red Dragon Disciple (don't need tumble due class feature) Weapon Master Barbarian Dwarven Defender Need Tumble and ListenBlackguard Champion of Torm Fighter Paladin Need Discipline and ParryAssassin Shadowdancer Need Discipline, Tumble and ParryArcane Archer Shifter (may not need Parry due critical immunity with some shapes) Need Discipline, Tumble and ListenCleric (don't need parry as a battle cleric) Druid Need all 4Sorcerer Wizard Suggestion: GSF Divination if male instead of of Great Wisdom II and GSF Conjuration instead of Great Intelligence II if Female. (these are unpopular schools for each respective class) A more appropriate way to fix the unpopularity of the schools would be to add spells to them. Dumping them on subs lards them down with feats that a) players will likely view as useless and b) may become much more powerful should the schools fall into favor. This creates an inherent balance problem. Funky Good point (Agreed). The issue is that most casters have 3 mandatory schools due spell schools and Epic/Paragon Spells, making the possible customization a bit small. A random idea is allow most (mandatory) spells to use the higher Spell focus feat between 2 schools (a bit crazy and off topic tough)
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Post by KnightErrant on Mar 11, 2013 3:31:43 GMT
Assassins don't get Discipline or Parry as a class skill. The XR templates would make them Half-Orc(STR) or Halfling(Dex) without a way to max both skills.
Shadowdancers don't get Discipline or Parry as a class skill either. The XR template would make them Dwarf, which gets Bullheaded for free, so they can max both skills. SD's also don't get Craft Armor or Craft Weapon as a skill but are allowed to raise it in LL as a class skill.
The XR Assassin templates should likely be adjusted to include one of the following ? Snakeblooded, Bullheaded, +63 Parry or "Can take discipline in LL as a class skill" stipulation. Or....changed to a base race that can accomodate maxing both skills.
Running around in endgame areas without maxed Discipline and Parry as a tank is a really bad idea...
Edit: The StrLarge Half-Orc XR Template for fighter also lacks the ability to get max listen as a member of the Fighter class.
KE.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 11, 2013 3:39:42 GMT
Thanks, to both of you. Are there any other LSA issues you're aware of, or is that it?
Funky
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Post by desocupado on Mar 11, 2013 3:48:54 GMT
The problem with LSA and mandatory tank skills is that it's a bit boring (it's one one of the things D&D 4.0 fixed - making feats give power instead of being pre-req) LSA discipline, Listen, Parry and Tumble feel pretty boring because they are basically a necessity for tanks. If we could choose to get LSA Taunt, Bluff, Persuade, Pick Pocket or Search it would be much more satisfying than being forced to pick the ones for the skills above. Back to subraces - I had this idea some time ago Insight - Any x Race specific subracesIn fact most non-any subraces should get +2 stats or an additional feat to balance them relative to the "Any Race" subraces. Or perhaps their base races could use a buff... (some ideas for gnome, halfling, half-orc and dwarf in the original post) --------- Thanks, to both of you. Are there any other LSA issues you're aware of, or is that it? Funky Stormlord, Slinger, Battle Cleric (to a degree) and Wiz CC GI suffer badly from skills (Needing many LSA). Besides that, we have the issue with skill points per level. We have a Barbarian needing just tumble with 5 skill points per level and, on the other side, Blackguard, Champion of Torm, Fighters and Paladin needing 2 LSA (tumble listen) with just 2 skill points per level.
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Post by chirality on Mar 11, 2013 4:48:40 GMT
Spoiler warning, wall of text, please ignore unless you really want to read the whole thing and understand what I'm saying and why I'm saying it @funky
Thanks, you've told me what I wanted to know. And, I realize the problematic lack of specifics that you pointed out; thanks for making that clear to me. Regardless of the difficulty you may have had in trying to figure out what exactly I was saying or what point I was making, you still addressed my question(s) to my satisfaction--thanks.
As for my quote about the "specials", my apologies for not being very clear: I was referring to some player-proposed specials, such as wiz extra spec/+DC spec, herald cloud +size.
The only "special" from the original "dev list" that I consider problematic is the Theurge free TA. But, I imagine that will be addressed/justified in time anyway so I'm not asking for (let alone demanding) an explanation or justification.
Anyway,
I'm hesitant to get engaged in the LSA/enabler/tank issues discussion.
That said I really would prefer to see base races shifted to help address these issues, rather than granting some subs +skills, +LSA, etc to neutralize what are otherwise inherent class balance issues.
I don't mean to offend anyone who's made suggestions or comments but I see a lot of this turning into a generalized balance discussion which points out class issues in general. I realize that's unavoidable but I'm not sure I see where this gets us: having super-good subraces which negate inherent class downsides/"imbalances" (imbalanced compared to other classes which don't suffer the same problems).
I really like that this discussion has highlighted these issues (better yet that Funky is reading it and taking notes).
But it seems off-target to look at tanks that suffer from lacking "necessary" tank skills and then tweak XR subs so that all XR tanks can get max Disc, Parry, Tumble and so forth.
Wouldn't it be more productive to try addressing these classes themselves rather than say "well if you have the right XR sub, at least now your fighter can max Listen, and your assassin can max Disc"
I know this is "off-topic" but I already see some comments that are more or less addressing these class issues themselves.
It just seems kind of odd to only frame these issues in terms of XR subraces; these issues would not be extant for an XR subrace discussion, if the class issues themselves weren't already problematic in the first place.
To clarify, I guess I'm just seeing a lot of talk along the lines of "XR sub should make class stronger"
This seems troubling because such attempts leave the "source" issues in the dust for those without XRs to still deal with.
I know a lot of people are expecting to get XR subs and finally make the toon of their dreams, but I'm picturing a future where the uber vets are running around with toons that aren't hampered by inherent class problems, where everyone else is still beating their heads against a wall without a way around them.
It just doesn't seem productive for attracting new players or keeping new players to tell them "well, unless you go Half-Elf your fighter/whatever can't max Listen...but hey, no worries, get that XR sub and you can level up Listen as a class skill in LLs"
or "well, wizard kind of sucks, but don't worry if you get the XR wiz sub you get to spec in 2 schools, that's almost as good as a sorc"
Again sorry if this is a derail but I'm trying to directly address some suggestions I'm seeing. I really identify with the desire to help some class issues but I just don't think this is the way to do it, and will only hamper further efforts down the road to fix them.
Or, if they don't need to be fixed, why should XR subs not only give better stats but also make class downsides disappear?
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Post by KnightErrant on Mar 11, 2013 5:34:21 GMT
But it seems off-target to look at tanks that suffer from lacking "necessary" tank skills and then tweak XR subs so that all XR tanks can get max Disc, Parry, Tumble and so forth. The option to get the necessary tank skills is being removed by forcing a base race....before if your class lacked a skill you used a "any race" Race to fill the void ...there are 13 BUR any race Races. The goal is to try to make them all able to do their job as set out and not have "why would anyone use this ?"... a BUR Koly Half-Elf or Koly Dwarf is better cause I can get LSA listen or Bullheaded for my build.....The bar might be set too high but I think everyone really wants, and is trying hard, to get it right and not have subbies no one wants. KE.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 11, 2013 5:44:06 GMT
Thanks, you've told me what I wanted to know. And, I realize the problematic lack of specifics that you pointed out; thanks for making that clear to me. Regardless of the difficulty you may have had in trying to figure out what exactly I was saying or what point I was making, you still addressed my question(s) to my satisfaction--thanks. I didn't have any difficulty in distinguishing your question, or your points; they just had nothing to do with the purpose of the thread, and your premises, which DID have some bearing on the thread, were far too vague to be of use. That was removed in my first pass, before this thread was even posted. Please reacquaint yourself with the new edits before posting again. The only person I still see trying to turn it into that is you. Please reread my original post, and address the concerns indicated there - in particular, the specials in need of replacement. We're simply ensuring that the subs are playable. Elimination of 'Any' subs makes it a necessary discussion. No, that would be far less productive, as it has little to do with the topic at hand. No more derails, please. Funky
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Post by desocupado on Mar 11, 2013 12:49:46 GMT
Str BFM/DSM
Well, damage is actually solid due the update making it pure Fire/Elec (or exotic if targets is resistant) Suggestion: Give them +2 extra uses of hell ball per day (or just +1 use)
Removed specials Here a few ideas of replacements: Sorc - Give them another less used Epic spell (Epic Warding comes to mind) Wizard - Maybe Epic Mage Armor would be good as an extra Theurge - Spell penetration (just the first feat) instead of 2 great off-attribute would be more useful. Another reasonable bonus would be Spellcraft+40 BK - Maybe a skill like Persuade/Taunt+63 would be a nice perk BG - What about area bestow curse (to incentive pure BG or give them a SR-10 Debuff) Str Assassin - Parry+63 would be awesome to replace the lost critical immunity Dex 1 - Give them LSF Parry to incentive fighters WM - Maybe twice as much Ki strike uses per day (for more Critical immunity / whirlwind attacks) Uni 1 - I really liked the old KD immunity - Maybe some odd assortment skills like: Bluff,+63, UMD+63 and Pickpocket+63 (with their respective LSF or not)
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Post by arek on Mar 11, 2013 20:02:00 GMT
A couple of things: First, FunkySwerve, would it be possible for you to "freeze" the first row of the spreadsheet (View->freeze rows->freeze 1 row)? This would improve its readability a bit by locking the header in place. Second, I noticed that all of the STR-based subraces that get a wisdom bonus are pretty build-specific. Is this intentional? --Arek
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 11, 2013 20:03:21 GMT
I made another pass, removing or replacing a few specials, bringing the abilities roughly into line, and working out the skill availability issues. The main issue remaining is to replace the missing specials. Deso, you're on the right track, but none of those really grabbed me. The trick is to find something interesting, not too powerful, and relatively simple to implement. Please continue tossing out suggestions, everyone - they're getting close. Once the specials are hammered out, I can make one more pass, looking at relative overall balance between the XR subs, as well as in comparison to the BUR subs. Thanks, everyone, for the input so far. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 11, 2013 20:04:20 GMT
A couple of things: First, FunkySwerve, would it be possible for you to "freeze" the first row of the spreadsheet (View->freeze rows->freeze 1 row)? This would improve its readability a bit by locking the header in place. Done, thanks. Had intended to do that and completely forgot. Not sure what you mean. All the subs are build-specific, at least to a degree. Are you referring to a particular player's builds, or...? Shard did these up as a first stab - for which I applaud him, that's by far the heaviest lifting. I'm very open to changing them if you see ways to improve them. Funky
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