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Post by desocupado on Mar 11, 2013 11:45:57 GMT
The 4 main skills for tanks are: -Discipline (Slag/KD and other bad stuff checks) -Listen (concealment piercing) -Parry (critical damage resistance and a few handful checks if I'm not mistaken) -Tumble (+12 AC) Need no LSABard and Monk Red Dragon Disciple (actually don't need LSA tumble due class feature) Need just LSA DisciplineRogue Pale Master (may not need Parry due critical immunity and don't really need tumble due bone skin, but still benefit from it as cross-class) Need just LSA TumbleRanger Weapon Master Barbarian Dwarven Defender Fighter (after the update) Need LSA Tumble and LSA ListenBlackguard Champion of Torm Paladin Need LSA Discipline and LSA ParryAssassin Shadowdancer Need LSA Tumble, LSA Discipline and LSA ParryArcane Archer (discipline isn't as important due being in back line) Shifter (may not need Parry due critical immunity with some shapes) Need LSA Discipline, LSA Tumble and LSA ListenCleric (don't need parry as a battle cleric) Druid Need all 4 LSASorcerer Wizard The problem with LSA and mandatory tank skills is that it's a bit boring (it's one one of the things D&D 4.0 fixed - making feats give power instead of being pre-req) LSA discipline, Listen, Parry and Tumble feel pretty boring because they are basically a necessity for tanks. If we could choose to get LSA Taunt, Bluff, Persuade, Pick Pocket or Search it would be much more satisfying than being forced to pick the ones for the skills above. The 4 LSA1.1 - LSA Listen is fundamental for tanks and LSA: Listen is only enabled by half-elf "Race" 1.2 - LSA Tumble is given by bloooded (which all half-orcs get) but can also be taken at level 1 1.3 - LSA Discipline is given by bullheaded (which all dwarves get) but can also be taken at level 1 - it's noteworthy dwarf don't favor any class that need it1.4 - LSA Parry is given by snake blood (which only a few subraces get) but can also be taken at level 1 (tough many classes can skip it due critical immunity) Race issues2.1 - Humans can pick 2 LSA enablers at level 1 (tough they also need Saving Throws feats) 2.2 - Tank classes needs as much as 6 skills - Concentration (some rank), Discipline, Parry (If not Critical Immune), Listen, Tumble and Craft Armor (if low AC) and Craft Weapon (if low AB) - This is quite tough for races without bonus skill points (unlike Humans, Half-elves or Gnomes) in classes with just 2 skills per level - And worst for Half-Orcs (with Int-2) 2.3 - Being Dwarf, Half-elf or Half-Orc feels like a waste if you don't need the LSA they allow you to get for your class, when compared to human 2.4 - Elves are a special case, after splashing they can maximize any skill, but require loads of skill points Usable skills with a splash at 403.1 - Discipline and Parry are both usable at rank 43 (but far from optimal for a full time tank) 3.2 - Listen is also usable at rank 43, tough just slight better than blind fight (cheap feat) 3.3 - Tumble 40 means -4 Ac potential making it only viable if you are a Wisdom Class with monk splash (Cleric/Druid) or have extreme concealment (Staffmaster/ Ethereal Visage) or stay away from combat (Arcane and Archers) Ideas and propositionsMy favorite is 4.1, since it also helps tanks having more skills (usually Taunt and Craft Armor/Weapon) and is less obstructive to what has been build around the current bonuses. 4.2 could add feats like Dauntless, Great Fortitude and Slippery Soul - though this design seems to be contrary to the philosophy on XR subraces. 4.6 Seem a good improvement to the lower feats. Specially for tanks that can afford them.
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Post by gandoron on Mar 11, 2013 18:29:46 GMT
Deso,
Thanks for that amazingly clear write up. I would like to concur that for end-game play tumble and listen as basically required. There are some builds that can make up for a LSA tumble vs lvl-40 dump, with high AC from other areas, but no one can make up the difference from BF and listen. I don't think BF cuts it in end-game, particularly asmo (arguably not end-game anymore).
Half-cloud giant really frustrated me on this, because you are stuck with BF-only for a large COT. I actually have a human cleric-CC wis threader that only has Bullheaded-LSA Disc, and uses a monk splash for tumble and listen. The fact that he's wis based makes up for the listen and the high ac from dex/wis barely cuts it for AC. I needed the other 1st lvl for a save feat (dauntless)
-G
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Post by desocupado on Mar 12, 2013 1:46:53 GMT
Indeed, the feat skill enabler (blooded, bullheaded) feats take the same slot as the saves feats (Slippery Soul and dauntless), which is a problem for some builds
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Post by simpetar on Mar 16, 2013 15:32:58 GMT
Idea for making up for tanks without Listen: Greater, Epic, Legendary and Paragon Blindfight. Each improves effect of the original BF by 15, stacking, up to 120 effective Listen with Paragon Blindfight.
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Post by hfb on Mar 18, 2013 15:33:46 GMT
+1 and thanks for consolidating this issue/aspect of building into one very well presented package.
+1 to noting that saves are also at play with the enablers for Legendary Luck and Legendary Strong Soul.
I suspect that if the "taken only at 1st level" requirement were removed a great deal of the problem here would evaporate, though I've not crunched any builds under that parameter.
That certain skills, as listed, were made necessary especially for tanks was a great move, imho. It gave teeth to the intelligence stat and heightened the complexity and importance of a good tank build. Love that. However, as you point out very well, this move put the screws to some of the races and class structures that should be quite viable in theory. This is a cost that, in my eyes, ought to be ameliorated.
Tangentially, I'd add that though it is really painful to build with 1/2 orcs, that pain seems to be well earned and in line with the flavor of the 1/2 orc. I am less concerned with the -2 to intelligence aspect of the 1/2 orc.
@deso: thank you for bringing focus on this topic and in such a well thought out/ fashion. Kudos, dude!
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Post by desocupado on Sept 2, 2013 3:34:21 GMT
I wonder how many tanks are either Dwarf, Halfling or Half-Orc nowadays? It seems the new subraces will try to ameliorate the disadvantages those races have in comparison to Human, Elf or Half-elf.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2013 3:40:33 GMT
I see quite a few barbarians as half-orc, all warchanters are dwarves and some two handed rogues are halflings. As far as elves go the only ones I see are arcane archers or splash wizards, though I guess some people might make a splash rogue as elf too. Personally, all of my tanks are humans or half-orc.
Humans look the prettiest anyway, don't want to go make people reroll ugly toons!
I favor barbarian and lash(unless you have a PM) the most at the moment; paladin if it's abyss. I don't care for staffmasters and staff monks since they got nerfed. I guess wis-CC threaders would be ok but only if you got multiple in party. Rogues are a nice addition for damage if you have some other character that will tank the mobs so they can be sneaked. All other tanks are just for flavor.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 2, 2013 4:40:07 GMT
It seems the new subraces will try to ameliorate the disadvantages those races have in comparison to Human, Elf or Half-elf. Yeah, we did have that in mind. Finding ways to do that for pre-XR subs are still a point of interest for me. Modding the base races is a really poor option at this point, though, as so much has been built up around them. Funky
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2013 8:13:56 GMT
I see quite a few barbarians as half-orc, all warchanters are dwarves and some two handed rogues are halflings. As far as elves go the only ones I see are arcane archers or splash wizards, though I guess some people might make a splash rogue as elf too. Personally, all of my tanks are humans or half-orc. Humans look the prettiest anyway, don't want to go make people reroll ugly toons! I favor barbarian and lash(unless you have a PM) the most at the moment; paladin if it's abyss. I don't care for staffmasters and staff monks since they got nerfed. I guess wis-CC threaders would be ok but only if you got multiple in party. Rogues are a nice addition for damage if you have some other character that will tank the mobs so they can be sneaked. All other tanks are just for flavor. Sorry for the off-topic, but lash? I have been gone a bit and since I left I have been wanting to make a lash but the class seemed quite dead for quite awhile. What happened to make it desirable again and where is a good current build?
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Post by halo27 on Sept 2, 2013 8:22:08 GMT
I still love my lash, the combination of disarm and inflict plus solid tanking and good damage still makes lashes a very good tank imo.
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Post by desocupado on Sept 2, 2013 11:31:26 GMT
I see quite a few barbarians as half-orc, all warchanters are dwarves and some two handed rogues are halflings. As far as elves go the only ones I see are arcane archers or splash wizards, though I guess some people might make a splash rogue as elf too. Personally, all of my tanks are humans or half-orc. Humans look the prettiest anyway, don't want to go make people reroll ugly toons! I favor barbarian and lash(unless you have a PM) the most at the moment; paladin if it's abyss. I don't care for staffmasters and staff monks since they got nerfed. I guess wis-CC threaders would be ok but only if you got multiple in party. Rogues are a nice addition for damage if you have some other character that will tank the mobs so they can be sneaked. All other tanks are just for flavor. Sorry for the off-topic, but lash? I have been gone a bit and since I left I have been wanting to make a lash but the class seemed quite dead for quite awhile. What happened to make it desirable again and where is a good current build? I'd point out 2 interesting options: Maximize AB (either Str or Dex), so you can disarm/kd effectively, after decreasing Discipline with Lash. Make sure to grab the Legendary/Paragon Feats. Make some sort of uni-tank. Scourge of Elysium seems good for that, with extra damage with the boots. It seems the new subraces will try to ameliorate the disadvantages those races have in comparison to Human, Elf or Half-elf. Yeah, we did have that in mind. Finding ways to do that for pre-XR subs are still a point of interest for me. Modding the base races is a really poor option at this point, though, as so much has been built up around them. Funky Well tweaking how the mechanics work would do the trick. The idea I had was twofold in this regard. 1 - Change how a Level 1 feat + Skill affinity combo work: 1A - LSA don't have any requirement (but the level 1 feats still work as normal) 1B - With both you get a skill at rank 63 i.e. Blooded + LSA Tumble grant Tumble 63 as soon as you grab the LSA feat 2 - Grant some "small" buff to the lesser favored Base races (several ideas around, I've adjusted the ones in the first post).
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Post by desocupado on Mar 5, 2015 3:37:34 GMT
Additional ideas for less used base races:
Dwarf - add toughness and superior dark vision (work like effective listen 30, like blind fight, stack with that for a effective Listen 90) Elf - enables LSA listen/Spot (and/or LSA search) - fits the "keen senses concept and makes parties more easy to make" Halfling - can take LSA:Hide and free weapon finesse at level 1 Half-orc - +1 skill point per level (they really need it) - the int decrease already make it harder to qualify for WM.
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Post by arek on Mar 5, 2015 16:29:16 GMT
Deso, if I understand correctly, halflings already get the equivalent of "Luck of Heroes" - their "Lucky" feat isn't just for show - it grants +1 to saves. Changing that to be the actual "Luck of Heroes" feat would actually be a nerf (since they can take LoH if they need another +1 saves and don't have anything better to take at level 1). --Arek
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Post by desocupado on Mar 5, 2015 16:35:32 GMT
Deso, if I understand correctly, halflings already get the equivalent of "Luck of Heroes" - their "Lucky" feat isn't just for show - it grants +1 to saves. Changing that to be the actual "Luck of Heroes" feat would actually be a nerf (since they can take LoH if they need another +1 saves and don't have anything better to take at level 1). --Arek Indeed. Wiki says they can take Leg lucky as if their natural "lucky" was a luck of heroes. But your point is valid. Removed above suggestion. Still, small size is kinda bad for both melee and casters, they'd need a small boost.
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Post by Torin on Mar 5, 2015 17:36:30 GMT
Being small add +1 AC and +1 AB. Its good in particularly for dexers.
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