|
Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 20, 2013 8:30:23 GMT
Here's the google doc link: Click MeI've made a host of edits based on comments in the previous thread (I got quite far behind working on weapons and XRs). PLEASE NOTE: ===== All edits from the original are highlighted in bright red. Struck-through items need replacements. At this point, that's just a bunch of names and specials. I've taken all the suggestions that seemed appropriate from the Mark 2 thread, but more are needed. I've struck through all the names I still don't find appropriate, so that what needs replacing is still crystal clear. All potentially problematic stats are highlighted in bright orange. At this point, there's only one - the Monk sub's feats. I'm thinking two subs might be in order, or a male/female divide. And, on that note: If you don't want a male/female divide on a sub, suggest two appropriate names for it. Might want to think before you do that, however, since such subs are inherently more valuable... Oh, and the Theurge sub isn't changing, sorry. ===== At this point, I think most balance issues have been resolved, save for some sub specials. I liked the +1 DC on spells 5 and below on sorc and wiz, but it might be a bit much. The main goal here is to fill in the remaining names and specials. With regard to names, we are looking for subs that will NOT alter the base appearance. It's partly for that reason that I expect to see a fair amount of 'Favored of' subs, though I'm open to others. All must fit within the Forgotten Realms campaign setting (though there IS some overlap with other settings in FR - like Greyhawk). Thanks to all who've contributed. I look forward to seeing this process to its end, and hope this will be the last iteration of this thread. Funky
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Mar 20, 2013 8:41:32 GMT
Looks nice, thanks for considering and accepting quite a few ideas...in particular the +1 rebuke DC looks nice, as do the name changes (without trying to sound biased I do like them so far) Thanks for further clarification on names, and specifically for ensuring that we know to look for no-change appy, that helps a lot (you likely said it before but I still wasn't sure if some phenos were left unused or available for re-use) I'll see if I can come up with some other suggestions with this in mind
|
|
|
Post by pete on Mar 20, 2013 9:07:08 GMT
i really dislike the cleric XR special for implode only affecting lawful good and the heartbane boost only affecting chaotic evil
I use the abo tourch on my cleric like most robe using cleric
this would force me to get the LG or CE versions if i want that boost, massively increasing the value of those 2 and decreasing the value of NG/CG/NE/NL versions please make it any good gets the implode boost any evil gets the heartbane boost
or add other boosts for the other alignments, say +1 Fod for NE+LE and +1 banish for NG/CG, even then the bonus seems unbalanced, as implode and heartbane are a clerics main spells (unless the XR areas will have different spell uses, for example rebuke is not commonly used in hell, ely or abo - i assume its used lots in abyss)
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Mar 20, 2013 14:56:14 GMT
Caster special You can be even more arbitrary, Let's say: -All level 4 spell get +3 DC (kinda cool for an arcane) -Level 1 spell get +5 DC (becoming worthy casting early) -Level 7 spells get auto extended (any cleric-like would love this) -Fountain spells are automatically extended (druid) -Stormlord's NB gets more duration/area -Prayer/BT is automatically extended (nice for cleric/battle cleric) -Augury can absorb 2 additional dispell/breach effects -Extended Orb spell are also considered Empowered (i.e. require 1 less spell slot level to empower) -Phantasmal Killer affects all targets in a small AoE (good for caster bard or some item usable both by BK and Bard) -Domain spells get some additional benefit (auto feat or DC) -All summon spells are auto empowered, maximized and extended (reasonable for theurge)
Monk Well, the real feat count is at 3 (EP and 2 feats for an appropriate "weapon" style - most monks don't have enough AB/feats to afford multiple weapons). Tough the 2 survival feats aren't bad neither. Anyway, lets see what we can do with Male/Female divide. -| Unnamed monk (male) can use: (Improved) Whirlwind, Higher Wisdom Mod (at expense of Cha/Int if needed - they don't need CW) - making it a full upgrade from Zenythri (I love that subrace) -| Armed one (female) can use Great Cleave (to help them affording two weapon style feats and OC/DC) and maybe IC (at expense of Cha and con).
Tough there are some additional issues:
Observation 1: There's little benefit for a CC monk to go with small weapons. Unarmed seems preferable to dual wielding (several dmg types, more physical damage and stunning fist tend offset 2 extra attacks with a single physical dmg type) Observation 2: Small weapon make more sense in in a Monk + WM-Fighter-HS-Pal/BG build. Preferably if monk is just a single level splash for 2 (3 with flurry) additional attacks with kama/goad/nunchaku. Observation 3: The most used weapon by monks is the staff (in fact these 3 weapons could be moved to the "intuitive attack" subrace) so it might be better to go that route Observation 4: Staff monk and staffmaster share most desired stats and feats in terms of subrace, unless monk version is aimed to building something like: Monk 30 Fighter 5 HS 5 (hint staff monk could get Harper Feats/skills and Great Fortitude feat) but none of weapon master's feats.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 20, 2013 17:23:09 GMT
i really dislike the cleric XR special for implode only affecting lawful good and the heartbane boost only affecting chaotic evil I use the abo tourch on my cleric like most robe using cleric this would force me to get the LG or CE versions if i want that boost, massively increasing the value of those 2 and decreasing the value of NG/CG/NE/NL versions please make it any good gets the implode boost any evil gets the heartbane boost or add other boosts for the other alignments, say +1 Fod for NE+LE and +1 banish for NG/CG, even then the bonus seems unbalanced, as implode and heartbane are a clerics main spells (unless the XR areas will have different spell uses, for example rebuke is not commonly used in hell, ely or abo - i assume its used lots in abyss) Done. I was sort of wrangling with that as well, and the point about the abo torch is well taken. Funky
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2013 2:48:03 GMT
Very nice, I wish I still could hit these forums as much as I used to. I only want to comment about what I know (or what I think I know lol), so that being said, I want to comment on the ' favored of rapier wit'. I've played the heck out of some different rapier wit builds, taking one to level 77, x4 demi. *I am thinking the race either should go pro-turner or pro-divine tank, because when you split the difference too much you end up with pharlan- which is a really sweet bur race, but its already been done. If this was to be some upgrade of pharlan, that should probably be in the notes and pharlan listed next to it as a comparable subrace. Because pharlan really is the best bur race for a rapier wit build, ESPECIALLY as a turner. *If divine tank>turner subby: remove +2 wis and ad +2 to cha (+8 cha total), give planar turning as a free feat, maintain zero bonus abilities (planar turning would be its 'special ability'). If divine tank>pure subby: remove the +2 wis and either split the two points between str and dex (+3/+3), or simply ad them to charisma. Suggested 'special ability': great smiting that DOES NOT heal enemies who would otherwise heal on given damage type + greater smiting that does not affect party kb mobs. My vote (for what its worth) is that this subby go the pure divine tank route. Hope this is the kind of thing you are looking for. EDIT: Concerning the stat break down if this is to be a divine tank melee sub and not a divine tank turner sub: One of the most beautiful things about the koly bur sub is the build challenge offered by the odd numbered stat bonuses. Cha is of course really important to any rapier wit build, but in the end the challenge with these builds is not how to get enough cha, but rather how to get enough str and dex t make it an effective melee toon. So an alternate suggestion for its stats is this: str4 dex3 int2 cha5 (currently str2 dex2 int2 wis2 cha6).
|
|
|
Post by arek on Mar 22, 2013 3:36:47 GMT
Over, please look at the race table again: Eladree is already taken (It's the race designated for dex-based CS Rangers).
--Arek
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2013 3:39:36 GMT
Over, please look at the race table again: Eladree is already taken (It's the race designated for dex-based CS Rangers). --Arek haha thanks.
|
|
|
Post by kaezar on Mar 23, 2013 19:14:08 GMT
Some more suggestions. This time I had some time and took things off some old ad&d books instead of inventing them out of whole cloth. I put the places where I got them in some cases.
Class - Race - Subrace Name - Rarity - New name - Source material Bard - Human - Favored of BRD2 - XR - Maridkin - Warchanter - Dwarf - Favored of Warchanter - XR - Undonnir - Fiend Folio - Ploder - Human - Favored of Ploder - XR - Earthbound Celestial - Theurge - Elf - Favored of Llolth Female - XR - Favored of Isis – Just an alternative, as Fav of Lolth after drow noble grates a bit. Also, on Egyptian mythology, there were no separate wizards and clerics, all casters were both, that is, theurges. Theurge - Elf - Favored of Llolth Male - XR - Favored of Isis – as above Herald - Human - Favored of Herald - Male - XR - Vaati - AD&D Monstrous Compendium Annual 4 - Str BFM/DSM - Gnome - Favored of Tiamat - XR - Phoelarch - ad&d4e - SL - Elf - Favored of StormLord - XR - Storm Archon - ad&d4e - BClr - Half-Elf - Favored of Helm - XR - Freeranging Per - CS RNG Str - Human - Favored of Mielikki - XR - - CS RNG Dex - Elf - Eladree - XR - - Dex Asn - Halfling - Favored of Cyric - XR - Shadar-kai - ad&d4e - DD - Dwarf - Favored of DD - XR - Daokin - Dex1 - Elf - Favored of Dex1 - XR - Lythari - AD&D Monstrous Compendium Annual 4 - Str1 - Half-Orc - Favored of str1 - XR - Half-Goliath - ad&d4e - Str2 - Human - Favored of str2 - XR - Reborn Einheriar - WM - Human - Favored of Tempus - XR - AD&D Monstrous Compendium Annual 4 -
|
|
|
Post by simpetar on Mar 23, 2013 19:59:01 GMT
Observation: BK XR subrace states that PWK becomes Necromancy. PWK is not a BK spell however at this moment (PW: Stun is). In addition, BKs tend to prefer Divination to Necro, due to the simple fact that it is difficult to reach a decent DC on Necromancy spells and Divination has cookies in +16 soak Premonition, PW: Stun (respecting only SR), and to a degree extended C/C. Am I missing something?
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Mar 23, 2013 21:18:04 GMT
I really like Urdunnir + Shadar-Kai. Good to see I'm not the only one Nice list kaez. Phoelarch is great also, that one I had not thought of. Nice catch!
|
|
|
Post by pete on Mar 27, 2013 8:33:45 GMT
Could a version of the AA sub be added for AA builds who don't monk splash? (though I would prefer a male/female split - the females are wiser but the males are stronger or vice versa) after elf the current sub is +2str +8dex +0con +4wis + 2int -2cha
the bonus wisdom is close to worthless to AA builds that do not monk splash (+2 will and connected skills) and with dev crit and weapon spec there are a few of these
My Dev Crit AA build would benefit a lot more from more str and con please could a variant something like this be added: stats before elf: +4str, +6dex, +4con, +0wis, +2int, -2cha (FC wizard/fighter)
making after elf: +4str, +8dex, +2con, +0wis, +2int, -2cha
this would make getting enough str for dev crit easier (I know most of these builds currently use koly) I cannot see any XR subs in that list that add 4 or more to str and dex and are elf base (which is what these build need)
(+6 str, +6 dex, +2 con, +0wis, +2int, -2cha before elf would be better for such builds but would it be asking too much?)
If a separate sub then for diversity you could replace point blank shot and rapid shot with power attack and cleave (being aimed at dev crit builds) but this might make it too nice for non archers
|
|
|
Post by arek on Mar 27, 2013 20:00:20 GMT
Similar to pete, I noticed a build type that doesn't get much love in XRs: The staff monk. I know there's Half-Planetar, which is usable, but not really great for a staff monk (monks don't need the INT, but they have a use for WIS instead). Not only that, but Half-Planetar just doesn't provide even close to as much as Favored of Grumbar does to monks, and whatever its bonus winds up being will probably be something staffmasters want more than monks do as well. I do, however, understand why Favored of Grumbar doesn't get access to the QS (at least as-is, although it could be altered to that end if desired), so I'd like to propose another race instead:
Favored of Gruumesh (requires half-orc): STR +4 CON +4 DEX +2 WIS +4 (total +14) WF/GWF/WS/EWS Quarterstaff, Epic Prowess (2 pre-epic, 3 epic feats) 5% bonus to the conceal provided by Empty Body (or some ki pool bonus, perhaps, tho I don't know how much would be considered balanced).
I came up with this race based on Favored of Grumbar, but have modified the race such that it's much less attractive to staffmasters. It wouldn't be impossible to make a staffmaster with this, but doing so would require some major sacrifices (particularly STR/AB) in order to get the INT required to cast spells.
The bonus is just something I thought would be interesting to monks. It's monk-specific, but so is the race, so not that much of a big deal there. I didn't go with soak because I wanted this race to be different from Favored of Grumbar in that regard.
Finally, half-orc does 2 things: First it gives an INT penalty (which helps make the race unattractive to staffmasters) and second it helps balance racial distribution among XRs (there are only 2 other half-orc XR races listed).
Any thoughts on this?
--Arek
|
|
|
Post by condude on Mar 27, 2013 20:07:13 GMT
Pete, With the +8 to str and +6 to dex any uni tank build would take it in a heartbeat. The first suggestion seems more reasonable.
|
|
|
Post by pete on Mar 27, 2013 21:03:54 GMT
my second suggestion is only +1 str and +1 dex better than the current Koly sub, but I agree, it does seem too much.
the first suggestion of +4 str and +6 dex would give the same number of points in these 2 as koly, so while dev crit AAs wouldn't get any more stat points in str or dex (so builds would still end up with the same str and dex as a current koly build by moving 1 level up point from dex to str) they would get +2 con and 5 great free feats over a koly build.
|
|