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Post by KnightErrant on Mar 20, 2013 21:10:19 GMT
Since there's a ongoing discussion about the plight of the poor fighter I thought I'd start one on the poor Assassin....
Namely Assassin vs Ranger.
Ranger Downside: Have to spam the CS button vs FE's
Rangers upside: Tier one AB 10 base HP a level Free Evasion at level 25 Free Improved Evasion at level 40 (pure) Free +1 Con for every 5 Legendary Levels Wisdom AC bonus when dual wielding or using a dual wieldable weapon in two hands Ability to insta kill (call shot) with offhand attacks. Ability to Keen, GMW, add Vampiric Regeneration and buff the Positive damage vs FE's of their melee weapon with Blade Thirst. Lower mob conceal up to 8% with Invisibility Purge. Give themselves Poison Immunity, Regeneration, Immunity to Stun, Waterbreathing and Critical Immunity-(40 base str)- with Poly Self. Cast "Mini Shunt" CL 3% Immunity to all Elements.
Assassin upside: Don't have to spam a "button" to insta kill Don't have to take Favorite Enemy feats to insta kill. Penetrating Strike...this isn't multiplied on criticals... (This ability could use a rework, the mobs get a save, so it's less useful vs nasty endgame mobs) Can buff Acid Damage on melee weapons. Wrack is pretty cool vs nasty mobs/bosses.
Assassin Downside: Lower Tier AB 6 base HP a level No HG "freebies" like free feats or stat boosts listed above. Can't insta kill with offhand attacks. The Assassin weapon "honer" scabbard doesn't add Enhancement, Keen, Vampiric Regeneration or damage bonus except for Penetrating Strikes.
Not to mention Rangers have a bunch of really nice set gear for their class...assassins have none that I can think of.
Ideas for upgrading:
Give Pure Assassins Improved Evasion or maybe Epic Dodge...a lot of classes get a "carrot" for being pure -- Ranger, CoT, Shadow Dancer, AA, Monk and Rogue come to mind. Give them +1 Con per 5 Legendary Levels....they have less base HP than Rangers to start with....they could use a boost. Allow the Assassin Scabbard to add Keen and Vampiric Regeneration...Vampiric Regeneration does sound more like an assassin ability than it does a Ranger one doesn't it ? Allow them to hone offhand weapons for 2 extra attempts a round to MS like melee Rangers get to CS. Modify existing spells or add spells to let them lower conceal....their AB is lower than a Ranger to begin with, they could use some help hitting.
Other thoughts and ideas most welcome. KE.
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Post by Yojimbo on Mar 21, 2013 13:24:15 GMT
Perhaps add to Assassin some of the feats required for Epic Dodge either as options in Epic Bonus feats or automaticly granted at certain levels.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 21, 2013 15:25:15 GMT
I'd like to think Assassin are an offensive class. So I'd improve their offensive potential.
I'd suggest enhancing their spell casting
Heartbane, uses the DC of mortal strike (with a +5 since it's dual saves) and ignores SR Poison and Sleep uses the same DC of mortal strike instead of based in level and int mod. Also ignores SR. Expeditious retreat, lasts Turns instead of rounds
Another thing to do is improve poisons Poison have a lot of potential, but they need to last longer and/or cheaper.
A fine idea would be making some poisons like an artifact - You can only carry 1, but it regains uses per rest (maybe 2 uses of 5 turns per rest) -- Hive dropped poison could be the ones with character bound. While demi shops are still the same with their relatively expensive prices.
This way we could have 3 sub-builds (level drain, stat drain or breach) based on the favorite poison of the player (btw Rangers already drain Con on failed Called shot attempts, so this isn't OP)
A good freebie would be ESF: Listen Assassin have a real hard time with Epic feats (1 bonus epic feat per 4 levels)
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Post by tomaan on Mar 21, 2013 15:49:24 GMT
Another thing to do is improve poisonsPoison have a lot of potential, but they need to last longer and/or cheaper. A fine idea would be making some poisons like an artifact - You can only carry 1, but it regains uses per rest (maybe 2 uses of 5 turns per rest) -- Hive dropped poison could be the ones with character bound. While demi shops are still the same with their relatively expensive prices. This way we could have 3 sub-builds (level drain, stat drain or breach) based on the favorite poison of the player (btw Rangers already drain Con on failed Called shot attempts, so this isn't OP) Great idea. How about using the AA-bow model on poisons? Collect a certain number of items and then toggle through them using ![cmd]? Decanter (control device) Item 1:base elem damage poison Item 2: exotic elem damage poison Item 3: physical vulnerabilityiInfliction poison Item 4: ability reduction poison Item 5: level reduction poison
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 21, 2013 16:24:09 GMT
The reason we haven't done much with poisons is that it'd require an extensive amount of work, and is severely limited by Bioware's setup. Not a feasible option.
Funky
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Post by desocupado on Mar 21, 2013 16:28:20 GMT
Could a spell be replaced by a clone of Holy sword/other buff? Alternatively, could Assassin spells (or the scarab) add an on-hit effect similar to the poisons? "!opt poison" comes to mind.
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Post by pete on Mar 21, 2013 16:36:24 GMT
I agree that assassins are in need of something, retired mine in favour of other tanks.
I really like the extra effects ideas even if they cant be poisions
I would quite like a damage boost to help them with bosses (if I understand right penetrating strike is +12 vs crit immunes who fail their save, +0 if they pass), with the low AB and 5 attacks/round of the standard assassin dagger + small shield build mine wasn't very good.
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Post by Yojimbo on Mar 21, 2013 19:41:32 GMT
IIRC Thaumaturgic Venom is a Holy Sword clone or at least clones the most essential part of it.
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Post by simpetar on Mar 21, 2013 20:19:17 GMT
Do not forget assassins can serve as full time pickers without hurting other abilities (splashed rangers can handle traps and locks too, but splashing rangers hurt). That can be a huge upside.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 21, 2013 21:15:14 GMT
I think one thing that might help to focus this discussion is a consideration of exactly WHY it is that assassins have fallen behind rangers in favor. From there, solutions should flow more naturally.
Funky
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Post by desocupado on Mar 21, 2013 23:19:31 GMT
Assassin Downside: Lower Tier AB 6 base HP a level No HG "freebies" like free feats or stat boosts listed above. Can't insta kill with offhand attacks. The Assassin weapon "honer" scabbard doesn't add Enhancement, Keen, Vampiric Regeneration or damage bonus except for Penetrating Strikes. Less AB, Evasion (monk splash override this), much less hp (6 hp versus 10 & Con +4), much less utility with spells (Polymorph, invisibility purge, Keen, GMW, mini shunt and blade thirst). Str version has WAY less AC than ranger (and no critical immunity). Dexter can splash monk (but them he cannot splash rogue). A possible (simpler) rework would be making splashing easier (i.e. Assassin get all benefits/DC with Assassin 25/45, allowing WM and fighter splashes with greater efficiency)
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Post by Lythe Featherblade on Mar 22, 2013 1:08:54 GMT
What killed the assassin for me was a ranger was more fun.
DC.. they were comparable, the ranger's ability to swap between ranged and melee was matched by the assassin's multiple attempts to MS a round.
Damage.. the assassin was generally behind unless built like a glass cannon. Currently with the 2H damage and certain high damage tanks putting everyone else to shame both are losing out, but the assassin much more so especially with weapons like the assassin's dagger.
Versatility - the assassin definitely has an advantage for roles (being a picker at minimal cost is something few can do), while the ranger has the in-combat advantage of being able to snipe (zen or melee using ranged).
Gameplay - The ranger definitely comes out ahead, in part because the constant need to pick targets makes it a much more involved class. While the assassin has an edge in crowded combats with the automatic MS attempts, at the end of the run the ranger player was constantly doing something while the assassin coasted through the run (leading to boredom and burnout). Add to that the single stat focus of assassin builds vs the easier time rangers had for making uni-tanks (and the associated problems as an assassin avoiding troublesome mobs). With current gameplay, having to choose survivability, kills or damage (but never excell in 2, and forget about all 3) plus knowing that casters can easily take care of most your potential targets with a few spells (for hells at least, abyss is a bit better) makes it a tough class to be happy with.
So as a generalization I'd want my assassin a little less squishy, with a bit more damage and more involved game play. A cross-over with Shadowdancers (who have their own shares of problems) would be great, or even just stealing some SD abilities in limited form (i.e. 10 uses of shadow step, and maybe every X number of kills an assassin would recharge one of those uses).
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Post by desocupado on Mar 22, 2013 1:49:01 GMT
Actually I find Mortal Strike much more "fun" than mindless spamming "Called shot opponent". Also, Foebane adds something to the game play (as you can kill more things than a ranger - tough it's usually supplanted by regular Death Magic). Tough FoeBane is very scary in the hands of a Zen Ranger.
A good "fix" for the Assassin would be getting both Str+4 and Dex+4 (and 2 less base DC in Mortal strike) to have a positive tanking aspect when compared to a Ranger. (Ranger's have twice HP, superior AC most times and critical immunity when Str). Alternativelly they could get +4 on their lowest attribute between Str/Dex could help. This fix would also increase their appeal when compared to both Rangers and Humanoid Shifters (Drow). Making them closer to Uni Tanks.
Another problem is that Mortal Strike's DC scale slower than Ranger's, making them worse to level in LL areas.
My favorite suggestion would be making Assassin True Uni tanks, with mortal Strike DC based on Both Str and Dex Mod (using their mean with some adjustment in the formula).
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Post by gandoron on Mar 22, 2013 2:37:04 GMT
I have a dex assassin 5xDemi 1xPrince high 70's lvl. It used to be a monk dual hander, now it's a hich ac flex picker.
I like the toon. Good defense. I generally kill trash, but amazing against ekolids. The number one issue in the game, it's does no damage against important mobs. End game you need to do some amount of damage. In abyss there are fewer crit imm mobs, higher imm and resists, small packet damage gets reduced to zero. Below is an Orcus fight. I almost tied for 2nd number of landed hits, but have ZERO damage. Maybe letting penetrating strike add 5x to crit multiplier or something. Even very rare spikey damage would be somewhat useful for long boss fights.
-G
Orcus - Damage received (:
Name Attacks by Hit % Total damage Ailina 0.0 3045 Az's 0.0 1279 Doja 145 42.8 2749 Dwaggi 241 73.9 3357 Estrell 0.0 519 Gandoron 131 71.8 0 Pazuzu 88 64.8 996 Shaar 313 78.9 805 Song 2 0.0 7096 Vulp's 0.0 15
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Post by chirality on Mar 22, 2013 2:54:43 GMT
Well I will use quite some quotes here from older threads. To start with, here is two from KE that I think addresses Funky's request very well: A few off the top of my head... Rangers get tier one AB. Rangers get free +4 Con Rangers can CS on offhand hits Rangers get Vampiric Regeneration...I know it's a fairly weak ability but still sounds more like a "assassin-y" ability than a Ranger one...IMHO. Rangers have oodles of class specific gear. Ranger spells are never disabled because of your alignment. Neither Parry or Discipline are Assassin skills...so unless you use Half Moly or are a Dwarf Assassin your gonna love stuff like Ichors, Balors and CS archers. .02 KE. This 2nd one is not so much about assassin downsides, or assassin vs. ranger, but regardless it does illustrate the gaping divine between the 2 classes: First let me say I love my Ranger ! But--IMHO--It's time for the Ranger Class to "share the wealth" as it were... Free +4 Con from 40-60 Free Evasion at level 21 Improved Evasion at 40 afaik the Only melee class that can lower conceal more than 5%, cast spells for water breathing and levitation, insta kill enemies with called shot with tier 1 AB, add 4 dice positive damage to weapon, get a AC bonus for having 'any' weapon in their offhand, adding vampiric regeneration on weapon. They also have access to crit immunity, summoning pets, self keen, self conceal, self weapon enhancement bonus, really nice self elemental buff, spell for stun immunity.....geez do I need to go on ? Access to tons of class specific gear...spell slot armor, belts, bracers, ammys, helmets & rings, bows with added AC, +1CS DC Ego item and set item that stack ...a top damage tier weapon designed for offhand use with free OC/DC....OK anyone can use the Razor but it "seems" to made with rangers in mind doesn't it ? They really are the Mercedes or Rolls Royce of the melee world....want to drive the best ? drive a Ranger I would really like to see Blackguards, Paladins and especially Assassins get access to some of these same benefits...they really seem to be getting the "short end of the stick" in a lot of the areas mentioned above. .02 KE. -------------------------------------------- So, now I will move on to a couple more quotes from other threads for assassin improvement suggestions: I agree assassin is underpowered, at least compared to the other classes iv played at lvl 60. the poisons are too expensive / too hard to get to be considered a class feature. i would like to have kits like the trap kits added (possibly using the same upgrade gems) that allow a poison user to make them on the go for cheep. so they are a class feature make their power based on assassin + BG levels (those are the only classes that get the use poison ability right?). i would really like to see foebane given a greater duration, and not end with a kill, but disables normal crit based MS. essentially you cast it and can only use death magic type attacks. then add a second (at the same level) spell that turns it back to crit based killing, so an assassin can get stuck on the wrong version for the fight at hand. it might be good to add 2 more spells (at lvl 4) one that changes MS to the same effect as weird/phantasmal killer (possible name:soul strike) and one that makes it the same effect as rebuke (possible name: mind strike). this would give assassin the ability to use 4 modes of insta-kill: crit/death magic/weird/rebuke, but in order to change mode they would have to use a lvl 4 spell slot limiting their choicesAssassin:Issue: Str build trades way too much AC for some physical damage/resistances.Possible solution: Increase their offensive prowess by giving a small DC bonus if using Str (something like what zen rangers get 1/8 mod or perhaps a static +2) Issue: Assassin is usually deemed inferior to Ranger.Possible solution: Improve their spell casting and/or spell book with more (custom) spells. - Silence as level 2 spell
- Foebane could not cancel mortal strikes against critical vulnerable foes.
- Spells could use Strength/Dexterity (whichever is higher) for DC
- Expeditious retreat (Now called Killer's Agility) could grant them and additional attack per round.
-It was suggested that Foebane could be buffed: -Allow to still threaten crit imm while under the effect, rather than replacing one with the other - Improve duration -What about allowing poison + death imm if not crit + death? -How about some sort of Poisonmaking Kit that produces Spider King/demi shop (for example, I am no poison expert) poisons for free, charge/rest, charge/reset, etc. -Wrack...maybe improve to AoE with requirement X? -How about granting Improved Evasion at assassin 30/total 40? I always thought it was odd that ranger gets this while the agile roguish (or monkish) assassin does not.-What about granting fighter LBAB or pre-epic BAB with a spell buff or even with a honed weapon? A big problem for building assassins is the 3/4 BAB. A buff like this would not ameliorate the issues of acheiving +16 pre-epic BAB etc. but maybe would help a "finished" build get better AB easier. -What about doing something to "bring back" the classic/vanilla death attack? Even in high-powered HG world you can still rarely paralyze vulnerable mobs if they roll a 1. I think it would be cool and nice if something was done to improve a non-MS sneak attack. What about giving a big buff to death attack DC and/or immunities respected? -Maybe at level X the scabbard also provides a buff that can inflict mobs lacking poison immunity--physical attribute damage/drain, damage immunity inflict, maybe even real poison?For my quote, I have added emphasis for certain ideas that aren't so redundant with others.
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