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Post by Raj on Apr 13, 2013 16:28:48 GMT
you're right about antiphaty overlapping turners, I forgot some fool plays bg turners bk can do w/o it for sure. Btw, I don't get why people think BK are sturdy: no innate phisical dr, no exo/elem immunity buffs, no concealment, their ac is the same of all str-based SH users, they must invest some points into cha/wis (and int, with few skill points availabe) so dex/con aren't impressive on any build. Their signature is premonition, aka poor man gate, but +15/soak gear isn't that hard to fit (amount of soak might be just 10-15, or 20 if lucky with randomization, but no cap) and phisical dmg isn't even that scary for a plate user frontliner; inflictions and on-hit abilities are the bane (hah) of all str tanks, and without conceal/autorestore/gr I woudn't call BK sturdy in end game areas. @vich 74 str is perfectly viable for a bur race with demi and more (even then, 4-6 great strength feats on a feat tight build mean very little spell focii, or no dev crit), but the quasi should be viable for starter; else, bk/bg would keep their role of '#10th tank experiment' for bored rich boys
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Post by simpetar on Apr 13, 2013 16:56:27 GMT
They lack full casterlevel and their spell list is even more limited than paladin one Heads up: BGs add their paladin level to BG level when it comes to CL: it is perfectly possible to get CL 60 on BG spells.
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Post by simpetar on Apr 13, 2013 17:10:39 GMT
Btw, I don't get why people think BK are sturdy: no innate phisical dr, no exo/elem immunity buffs, no concealment, their ac is the same of all str-based SH users, they must invest some points into cha/wis (and int, with few skill points availabe) so dex/con aren't impressive on any build. Their signature is premonition, aka poor man gate, but +15/soak gear isn't that hard to fit (amount of soak might be just 10-15, or 20 if lucky with randomization, but no cap) and phisical dmg isn't even that scary for a plate user frontliner; inflictions and on-hit abilities are the bane (hah) of all str tanks, and without conceal/autorestore/gr I woudn't call BK sturdy in end game areas. 20 AC from Tensers means you frees up amulet slot for something yummier, +15/16 Premonition likewise. Throw 60/- to elements (jumping up to 70/- if you use something with Energy Resist feats, or even higher) in, add (empowered) mantles and you have a decent mix. Not to forget that BKs (just like staffies) possess ability to use Sussurus to its full power on switch: using a melee weapon does not cost them spell slots like it does for casters. It is a *different* kind of sturdy, but still sturdy.
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Post by Raj on Apr 13, 2013 17:32:40 GMT
Honestly those things don't impress me much (nor they impress any future bk player, given the shortage of them ): are you really going to invest 4 feats in Div with current spell list? using a book would force use gm3 plate for bigbies and that's not that yummy either. I woudn't rely on buffer alone against elemental damage with low ac/conceal (but then not everybody has 50-60/ vs elements on some item, still...). Empowered spells? Is sussurus still bugged at cl60? It would mean infinite supply of buffs but even then it's not like people deplete their rest ring at all lately. All considered they are a fine choice for a undergeared player (I gave indications for bk builds to some HC player and to a total noob not so long ago afterall) but then the stats spread, the feats shortage and buff reliance didn't increase bk popularity. They play very similar to melee bfm/dsm, but the latters have better stats/imms (there're some of those around in fact). Btw I have a feeling you're right about pally/bg casterlevel, I just never got the motivation to check a 10/30 build and the wiki said nothing about that.
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Post by desocupado on Apr 13, 2013 17:33:32 GMT
you're right about antiphaty overlapping turners, I forgot some fool plays bg turners bk can do w/o it for sure. Well I have some nostalgia from my BG Smiter-turner. A true turner is always better with paladin due Cha mod and aura of glory synergy (and they are still terrible). Btw, I don't get why people think BK are sturdy: no innate phisical dr, no exo/elem immunity buffs, no concealment, their ac is the same of all str-based SH users, they must invest some points into cha/wis (and int, with few skill points availabe) so dex/con aren't impressive on any build. Their signature is premonition, aka poor man gate, but +15/soak gear isn't that hard to fit (amount of soak might be just 10-15, or 20 if lucky with randomization, but no cap) and phisical dmg isn't even that scary for a plate user frontliner; inflictions and on-hit abilities are the bane (hah) of all str tanks, and without conceal/autorestore/gr I woudn't call BK sturdy in end game areas. Premoniton = 50/+15 (possibly +16 with Divination) with heavy armor and shield. i.e. they beat CoT soak wise. Tenser's Natural AC (+20) - frees up Amulet slot for a good one Flame shield, Acid Shealth, energy Buffer and now energy immunity allows great resistances and immunities @vich 74 str is perfectly viable for a bur race with demi and more (even then, 4-6 great strength feats on a feat tight build mean very little spell focii, or no dev crit), but the quasi should be viable for starter; else, bk/bg would keep their role of '#10th tank experiment' for bored rich boys The only thing holding it back for starters is the need of maximizing Str, getting Wisdom 14 Cha 19 for first characters. This effectively kills their Constitution, Dexterity and Intelligence.
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Post by Vichya on Apr 13, 2013 17:37:24 GMT
Btw, I don't get why people think BK are sturdy: no innate phisical dr, no exo/elem immunity buffs, no concealment, their ac is the same of all str-based SH users, they must invest some points into cha/wis (and int, with few skill points availabe) so dex/con aren't impressive on any build. Their signature is premonition, aka poor man gate, but +15/soak gear isn't that hard to fit (amount of soak might be just 10-15, or 20 if lucky with randomization, but no cap) and phisical dmg isn't even that scary for a plate user frontliner; inflictions and on-hit abilities are the bane (hah) of all str tanks, and without conceal/autorestore/gr I woudn't call BK sturdy in end game areas. I think they are good tanks. +20 AC from tenser means you can use something better than strongheart. 50/+16 soak from premo is very good. Energy Buffer too of course. And then you can also use Bigby's Interposing Hand on the targets which you can't tank well and effectively gain +10 AC against them.
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Post by Raj on Apr 13, 2013 17:45:07 GMT
You shouldn't put on the same level dispellable/capped buffs and unlimited ones^^ I forgot to add, using a different amulet than SH (tenser should be 1st buff to recast after death anyway) is a nice thing, but then you have to wear some caster slots gear afterall, so all considered other tanks can wear more immunity gear. Don't suppose every BK has enough room for max str, legendary div, para abj, empowered spells, 20+ spells/level either; I never said they aren't viable at all, but there're way better alternatives around and people play those.
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Post by desocupado on Apr 13, 2013 17:52:03 GMT
About GM3 armor Add ESF Evocation to LL to a fitting heavy armor with Armor AC+17 (Or +16). This way the feat would cost AC before you can upgrade to GM 3 armor. The GM3 would be an welcome upgrade from it then.
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Post by KnightErrant on Apr 13, 2013 18:57:53 GMT
I don't see many BK in end game areas since hells came out. The ones I remember are from quite experienced players with a plethora of toons trying a cool concept (checking the few builds posted, last demigod bk is 3y+ old), who have way better tanks in their vault. Same for BG, I think the ones i saw in end game lately are from xiayu and ke, who could gear up a badger good enough to tank asmo; still, the class is decent enough that I rank it higher than sd/sin/ftr and most dex builds (I have a planned reinc slot for a 2h bg but it's incredibly demi/gear reliant, nothing newbie friendly): the big issue is that paladins (and cots, and battle clerics) are clearly superior choices so that people willing to build their first divine tanks turn their attenction elsewhere. They both need help; I wasn't going to suggest anything for bg because I feel there's already too little incentive to focus on the sorceror half of the bk quasi, and giving them more schools to focus in was my priority. Now, some thoughts about bg that could be applied to bk as well. They lack full casterlevel and their spell list is even more limited than paladin one: holy sword, clang (with easy access to +15 for pure paladins), aura of glory (quite high long lasting phisical/positive immunity, paladins are better at tanking), lionheart are way better than frost weapon that every cleric can provide; bk don't get any divine dice from bless weapon either. All other spells are cosmetic only: nobody bothers summon creature or inflict wounds. Any dc based spell you could add to bg list isn't going to be useful, nor any spell that has to bypass enemy SR, so what bg need are buffs, something that put them on par with paladins (weapon buffs, immunity buffs) keeping in mind they cast at lower level. All these buffs should work for no-quasi bg only. Sneak attacks are decent, more in abyss than in hells where almost all no-fodder is sneak immune, so a lot of appeal could come from the introduction/modification of not sneak immune tough enemies; anyway, even with comparable buffs paladin is still going to be a superior choice in end game areas because of their disease and fear immunity. I dare suggest give legendary bg artifact level poison immunity, it fits them well and provides some gear/artifact variety. Directly from PnP sources: Make it improve in effectiveness/size with levels/chamod (so that bk and lashes get a nerfed version), maybe move it to a higher level to prevent easy 4-7 splash, and bg are going to be a welcome addiction to most parties. Nice post ! I made my BG after Elysium came out. At the time it was the only way to get a cold weapon buff and it had corrupt weapon which only effected good mobs....sneaks and Negative Smite are also quite useful in Ely. BG's aren't really that horrible until you compare them to Paladins...Paladins get better "everything"--(spells, abilities & gear)-- for the most part so players wanting a Divine tank make a Pally. The fact that are two or three non quasi tank BG's in end game areas speaks pretty loudly to me. (Especially considering how many SD's and Slingers you see and they're considered as "needing the most help" class wise...) tbh the only reason I play mine at all is I have acquired some fairly insane BG gear since randomization went in and I thought it would be a shame to not use it and play/tag my BG until I figured out what to do with it... KE.
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Post by Xiayu on Apr 13, 2013 22:42:34 GMT
For Blackguards:
I would like the Aura of Despair (-2 to saves, stacking with other effects), it makes more sense on them than on RDDs. I also agree on giving them poison immunity, I think it fits them and would give them a nice buff. However I am not sure if this should be for all Blackguards, or just for control class/level 30 bonus.
About sneaks… Didn’t want to step much on Rogue’s toes but since Blackguards get sneak attacks for free (9d6 at level 28) and can take the feats on level up, it would be nice if they could bypass sneak immunity by a % based on level (50% at maximum) even when the enemies are focusing you (at Blackguard 30 pre-LL?). As mentioned, they are ‘main’ tanks unlike rogues, so they wouldn’t be getting many sneak attacks off. This would give them some extra damage and usefulness to their sneaks.
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Post by arek on Apr 13, 2013 22:49:21 GMT
If Aura of Despair is done correctly, I don't think it'll conflict with or replace the RDD fear aura. First, current RDDs get a better "fear" aura than the proposed BG aura (-3 saves instead of -2), and second, if they stack then both would be in demand (not sure they should stack, tho, since both would be classed as fear-based effects). Finally, if the aura is the same size, Future RDDs will get a bigger aura...or if the BG aura winds up bigger, RDDs will later get the same aura size (from the XR subby special).
--Arek
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Post by Raj on Sept 29, 2013 11:40:24 GMT
Necrothread alert!
Err, any word about updating BK spell list? In these months I only met one BK in end game (Salek's, and iirc he doesn't focus on spellcasting much), despite what everybody seemed to think about BK viability.
Even lower impact edit proposal: add expeditious retreat, shock weapon, clarity, displacement, break enchantment, energy immunity, greater dispel, pw:kill.
Basically updated with the more recent buff spells, and just enough incentive for the abj/div foci route that's missing among other quasiclasses.
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Post by kaezar on Sept 29, 2013 12:06:19 GMT
I'm not trying to derail this thread, as I can see reasons to add some of the spells. But, I'm under the impression that people already favor the quasi over the base class. If we're adjusting one, we should probably adjust both, to try to get the balance correct. Or am I wrong about the popularity of the BG? Funky Serenditipy in action. I was about to start a thread with suggestions for Blackguard. I'll do it on a different thread so as not to derail this one. Take care Kaezar
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Post by kaezar on Sept 29, 2013 12:26:08 GMT
What really frustrates me about bane knights is that their offensive spells are so much fluff.
The low dc achiavable by the class means that any individual spell becomes a "fishing for 5-" proposition. With the speed of combat nowadays, it means that even if the BK manages to hit before the critter dies, it will probably be Near Death by then anyway.
And more frustrating, the BK signature spell, Glenched Fist, works on the same kind of critters that the Bane Knight is meant to melee. Bludgeoning damage is good for pit fiends, mariliths, Ekholids, some others, but in general, strength tank targets the the Bane Knight should be meleeing. If you are doing about the same damage meleeing that you would casting, why are you spending the spells?
I would like to see bk's get some offensive/damage spells that work mainly on dex tank targets. I suggested Orb of Acid some time ago (not greater orb of acid, the regular, level 4 one) but I would really welcome any other ideas.
Take care Kaezar
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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 29, 2013 18:42:48 GMT
We could look at maybe having paragon levels grant them a dc boost. I'm not opening THAT can of worms - or doing any deliberate class balancing - until after limbo drops.
Funky
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