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Post by chirality on Apr 30, 2013 4:17:05 GMT
I'd like to improve both these items. I know yeti drops have been mentioned in the past but these threads tend to become so broad and lose focus so easily that it's hard to really progress. So my new tactic will be to try managing some item review/revision in small doses. As a disclaimer I'm neither asking for nor expecting anything done any time soon; this is just to "put it out there" Thanks to Trazik for the item screenshots (taken from Wiki). I decided to include screenshots directly in the post so you can easily check the item while thinking of balancing and considering my concerns. If this is too big and annoying I'll remove them. ---------------------------------- Problems: 1) Unnecessarily restrictive requirements (makes no sense to me at all) 2) Lack of any useful properties whatsoever (imm%, immunity to special attacks) 3) Extant resists are far too weak to be noticeable, let alone useful, to anyone even at low epic levels, let alone LLs 4) As a relatively difficult/time-consuming/hassle LL run, Hive loot deserves to be at least good enough to wear by a LL toon of middling power/level Summation: +18 natural AC is no longer as valuable and hard to obtain as it may have once been. Providing literally nothing else on ammy slot, and being restricted in use to non-RDD Str tanks, this item is basically unusable. It's true that +18 AC is "nice" but it's hard to justify sacrificing an entire slot just for +1 AC over an easy-to-obtain UR ammy with 17 ac. Furthermore after recent AC randomization change, even +18 is not hard to come by (it's only been a relatively short time but I see +18 ammies fairly frequently now). If I remember correctly (could be wrong) this item is actually even a drop from the boss fight so it really should be a pretty good item. Other hive drops aren't very amazing either but in general they offer special immunities, high resists, or other "good" props that at least warrant them being situationally useful or comparable to easy-to-obtain random gear. Possible Solutions: 1) Increase resists to at least 15 each 2) Add at least 5% phys imm 3) Add useful immunities such as KD, Poison, Disease, Mind-Affecting, Death, etc 4) Drop AC down to 17 to provide a good UR-quality AC ammy that has the perk of being untouched by randomization, so worry-free 17 AC before 60. Add in some extras here as well ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Problems: 1) +17 deflect AC is extremely easy to get nowadays, unlike "old times". Coupled with 5% phys imms and complete lack of other useful props, these cloak/glove is far worse than a UR cloak/glove that could be worn at level 40. 2) Although in the past I've argued for the fact that overall Uro loot is pretty well-balanced, this cloak/glove is just not worth wearing, period. It doesn't have to be amazing but it should at least be worth wearing by a toon that could complete the run in the first place (in other words it should be at least as good as a pre-rand or decent rand UR). Possible Solutions: 1) Improve phys imms to 10% each 2) Add useful special attack immunities 3) Add cold resist 4) Add +stats
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Post by Yojimbo on Apr 30, 2013 13:35:08 GMT
I won't comment on the yeti items as Im not as prepared on the matter but the Hive ammulet tends to be viewed as the poor mans Strong Heart. I will agree that the inclusion of +18 as a randomization has severally altered this items power. Below is an image of the SH properties we can see a few more differences between them and I certainly think it could use some boosts when you can likely find a well randomized Ygrette's Evanescent Locket also pictured below. I would suggest at least adding 5% immunity to the Roachreign and maybe bump the AC boost to +19 also it is found in the Cesspool IIRC so you could farm it with out doing the whole run it is not a boss drop from what I remember.
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Post by chirality on Apr 30, 2013 17:54:13 GMT
Ok, I couldn't remember if last time I saw it, it was from cesspool ganglion or from the boss fight. I think you're right.
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Post by chirality on Apr 30, 2013 18:18:04 GMT
Actually I'm positive you're right...it's from cesspool mini.
Anyway, I surely understand the point of the item being a "poor man's SH" (I've used the exact phrase to describe it in the past), and I think at one time it may have been worth wearing for the AC boost. It's just that after randomization it stops looking so great, especially with the latest change.
I do see the point of originally having the use requirements in the vein of SH--sorry I didn't mean to say that it didn't "ever" make sense. I just think it doesn't make much sense "now", since it's not so powerful that it needs to be restricted from Dexers or XDDs.
I don't think boosting the AC to 19 is a good idea, since that leaves only a 1-point gap from SH and asmo. I'd rather leave it at 18 but just add some extra stuff on it.
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Post by Yojimbo on Apr 30, 2013 18:36:53 GMT
If you put it to 19 and give lesser boosts than the SH and even the BUR amulet I showed then you still have plenty of reasons to consider the other options. I am ultimately just spitting out ideas I tend to just throw out ideas and see what sticks.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 30, 2013 19:59:12 GMT
I'm interested in this topic, but refraining from comment, as the main thrust of my thinking would be a serious derail in breadth which the OP was explicitly trying to avoid, and I'm curious as to what people think. I'll elaborate later.
Funky
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Post by chirality on May 1, 2013 22:48:15 GMT
I highly appreciate the respect given. However, I'm far more interested to hear what's on your mind (and see where it may lead). I waited another day to post this, but at this point I'm not expecting many--if any--further posts with thoughts on the actual items in question here. Please feel free to spark whatever discussion you want; I'd rather gain some more insight than insist on "staying on topic". It's possible that not many people agree with me here, but my suspicion is that basically no one really cares very much, if at all. After all, these runs are done without a care in the world for these loots. As I mentioned in the last item discussion thread with deso, I have a high regard for not improving "bad" items too much on any given run (other than Beholders since honestly it's all complete crap). Both Uro and Hive remain pretty well-balanced in terms of loot. In Hive, the relative rarity of some items overall (due to more crap in the pool of each mini) helps preserve the value of the more desirable ones, such as Webdancers, Knell Muffler, etc. This is similar to the situation I used as an example in the discussion with deso regarding the dragonkin mini in Uro--some items are crap but the good ones remain good and desirable. That said, my main objective was merely to bring these items "up to par" in terms of at least being decently-usable by toons that could accomplish this run. The yeti stuff is terribad--the belt sucks too but I didn't include it because it at least brings a bit more to the table with other props/stat boosts (and it's less a priority to me so I wanted to start with cloak/gloves and go from there). In the case of Roachreign, I really don't see it having a use as "poor man's SH", regardless how poor you are. The dynamic of "sacrificing" a slot for one single statistic really only works when that statistic is very impressive or otherwise-hard-to-obtain--SH itself is a great example. As power creep rises I think it's become less and less desirable and popular, but people do still like to wear it. For Roachreign, even if I could say, have a fresh LL toon dragged for tag...even in hardcore and even at such low levels that +18 is a point or 2 of extra AC, it's just not worth the cost of having nothing else on ammy slot. +18 UR ammy may be rare e (to be honest I've only seen one, but still), but +17 is exceedingly common and it's a no brainer choice of a lot more props vs. 1 AC. Well...bleh that ended up being really long. Sorry. If you glazed over the rest, the point is, I'd love to hear your thoughts, so by all means please fire away
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Post by Yojimbo on May 2, 2013 15:50:18 GMT
One thing I will point out on the Yeti items is that unlike many set items on the UR tier they have +16 typically so that is a bonus of the Yeti gear but they are still lacking in terms of value over other items and with randomization it is even weaker.
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Post by chirality on May 2, 2013 17:56:06 GMT
Like I said, at one time the +17 deflect was useful/unique/whatever.
It hasn't been useful for a long long time and it certainly isn't now.
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Post by Lythe Featherblade on May 4, 2013 4:37:06 GMT
I still think that mid level set items are best served if they can be upgraded. Even if it takes 5 of each component and several different components, it will put a use and demand for these. However the coding time required can generally be best spent elsewhere.
Tag/level requirements are a bigger killer of these kinds of items. By the time you get them, you usually have a lot of equal or better options for the same slots. Strongheart (as an example) however is usable tag-less at 40. Things like Beholders and Thids set items are good examples of suffering from tag requirements, as they are pretty outdated and were balanced when URs were still hard to get in the game so set items like these made a lot more sense until you could actually get better. Randomized URs, and the ease of getting BURs when you can finally wear the higher LL set items means the set items are usually quite obsolete by the time you can equip them.
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Post by chirality on May 4, 2013 5:10:27 GMT
Very nice post.
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Post by FunkySwerve on May 4, 2013 20:21:40 GMT
I tend to agree about Lythe's post. I have to wonder, though, if piecemeal is the way to go about it. This is the same problem that paragon item bonuses were designed to combat. That itself, however, begs the question: to whom are these items intended to be useful to, and for how long? They were deliberately excluded from the paragon level scaling in part to keep it simple, and in part because I tend to view them as stepping-stones. If Lythe is right, though, they should probably get some kind of scaling as well.
The counter-position to that, however, is the need to guard against power creep. These items are NOT meant to compete with well-randomized BURs.
Obviously, however, we do want them to have some purpose. Unfortunately, not all of them have the ability bonuses that would make them well-suited for paragon-type scaling.
I guess the next question is: how widespread are problem items? Should they be addressed only piecemeal like this, or should a more comprehensive approach handle some of the issue?
Funky
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Post by Torin on May 4, 2013 20:55:28 GMT
My 2 Cents:
Is it worth zoths (or how its called. Dev time)? If I could chose I'd say invest dev time in that order: a) Fix Bugs b) New areas c) new quasis, spells, etc d) new items e) ... => Fixing/improving old items is on the low end of my list. The answer to my (own) question would be "no" (or: way laterz)
Right now I'm hooked to -HC- and from that playing point of view: UR gear is better than mostly all LL set gear. And that is not that good. One motivation to do a LL run should be to find some good stuff there. But since UR is mostly always better I do these runs only for XP. It would be more fun to crawl a specific dungeon to find a specific item that is rumored to be hidden there..
Looks like my 2 cents are perpendicularly to each other, sorry
Torin
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Post by chirality on May 4, 2013 20:58:39 GMT
Well, part of the issue is that they can't compete with mediocre-randomized URs, let alone well-randomized BURs. Since URs are usable at even 40, let alone 41, this does make crappy set loot such as yeti stuff, beholder gear, and quite a few others, pretty useless to anyone. I know there is always an argument regarding "new players" or "poor players" but honestly absolutely no one has a use for set loot like this. Does that alone mean that it needs to be improved?
I think so, but again it doesn't need to be drastically improved to the point of competing with other loot from the same run, let alone well-randomized gear. In my opinion, one of the best parts about set loot is that it is reliable in regards to the randomization system--for desirable set loot, one thing that still makes it valuable and useful is that it's always going to be good no matter what. For many pieces that can compete with random gear, these do fill a role for for new/poor players/those without the time and ability to play the slot game with randomization.
I *think* I understand and completely agree with the need to guard against power creep when it comes to improving set gear. It's important to note however the fact that there is quite a lot of very good set gear usable without tag at level 40, as Lythe indicates--another example is the Golden Guard phleg bracers which are pretty amazing at low levels, and only even need 38 to use.
Regarding how to address these issues, I'm not sure. Honestly I think the most effective way would indeed be piecemeal, in terms of reviewing bad items on a case-by-case basis and determining improvements with careful observation and comparing. However this is obviously a lot more time-consuming and potentially problematic than the alternative.
I'd like to say that a comprehensive method could do the job well, but I'm just not sure how it could be pursued without potentially creating more problems. If this is the only realistic solution given dev time constraints then I think the best bet by far is to simply "forget about it" and not worry about these items at all. It's certainly not a huge deal and most players have no problem ignoring it or "dealing with it". It's not as if people are overly concerned with every last set item having a defined use and role as time marches on--especially when you can get "good" items on the same run anyway.
To answer the question, I think it's fairly widespread--every run I can think of has some bad items, and some have at least one item that is not just "generally undesirable" but pretty worthless period. Beholders is a bit unique in that virtually all the set loot is pretty worthless.
I think one comprehensive method could be to simply remove usage tag from a lot of this stuff, but I'm not too keen on it from a flavor perspective. But I think it would be decently effective. Allowing some of this "bad" loot to be handed out to fresh toons/players could help with creating a niche for these items, for people without tons of randomized gear that overshadows these set items. Then again power creep is at a level where this scenario is pretty unlikely--honestly who *doesn't* have access to this stuff anyway? At this point most new players have no trouble getting gold to buy from bankchests or being handed set loot that the vet doesn't need or want anymore.
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Post by chirality on May 4, 2013 21:00:17 GMT
And yes, Torin basically does hit the nail on the head. Improving this stuff is pretty low down on the priority list for I think, everyone.
And as he points out, it's more attractive to farm for randomized gear. In terms of getting people to play and roll the randomization dice more, this is a good thing.
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