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Post by kaezar on Jun 17, 2013 21:53:01 GMT
Only things that drop as BUR's are, well, BURs, BUR Books and Craft Books.
Rare Augments Drop as Ultrarare items Uncommon augments as Rare Items Common Augments as Uncommon Items All those drop 15% of time when a drop of appropriate rarity happens.
The hell usable items drop as rares. I think 1/3 of times. Or maybe 1/2, not sure depending on how the random(#) works.
Take care kaezar
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Post by chirality on Jun 17, 2013 22:20:36 GMT
Well clearly Pulpa is a BUR drop?
So draughts, power orbs, seeds, herbs, forcecages, defense cubes, breachballs, these are all rare drops?
And UR augs...these are BUR drops? Or they're UR drops? Which would mean both UR augs and R augs are UR drops?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2013 22:36:00 GMT
UR augs don't drop as random loot. Pulpa isn't a BUR drop, it's also under the Hell Loot Consumable loot table but it occupies 2 spots instead of 1. The other items you mentioned I believe also count as Hell Loot Consumables.
Hell Loot Consumables all fall under the "rares" category for hells and 55+ areas. For hells and abyss, if the rarity roll falls under rare category, there's a 50% chance that it will be a hell loot consumable and a 50% chance that it will be a piece of rare-quality random loot. For the "55+" category which I assume involves ely/abos it looks like it's a 1/3 chance to get a consumable vs 2/3 to get a rare item.
R augs look like they have a 15% chance (independent of the creation of hell consumable/rare item) of being created whenever the rarity roll falls under the rare category.
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Post by magecat on Jun 17, 2013 22:50:16 GMT
I think it is silly that a professional treasure hunter (rogue) is less influential than someone who's only qualification is the ability to cast spells.
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Post by chirality on Jun 17, 2013 23:47:55 GMT
UR augs don't drop as random loot. Pulpa isn't a BUR drop, it's also under the Hell Loot Consumable loot table but it occupies 2 spots instead of 1. The other items you mentioned I believe also count as Hell Loot Consumables. Hell Loot Consumables all fall under the "rares" category for hells and 55+ areas. For hells and abyss, if the rarity roll falls under rare category, there's a 50% chance that it will be a hell loot consumable and a 50% chance that it will be a piece of rare-quality random loot. For the "55+" category which I assume involves ely/abos it looks like it's a 1/3 chance to get a consumable vs 2/3 to get a rare item. R augs look like they have a 15% chance (independent of the creation of hell consumable/rare item) of being created whenever the rarity roll falls under the rare category. Thanks very much. I thought I had read that the Pulpa was a BUR rarity item, which is why I said that--not for any other reason. I can't find anything that claims BUR rarity now though so I'm not sure where I got that from. I didn't just pull it out of thin air but I also don't know where I saw that. I didn't hear it ingame but maybe it was a post here on the forums, since the update log doesn't mention that (I thought it did). Sorry for the Pulpa rants then!
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Post by kaezar on Jun 18, 2013 4:47:38 GMT
Got kind of daunted at the begining, but after looking up a little I started remembering the C I learned at Uni. Of course, I also remembered why I hated C, but those are details. And I was outvoted all the time, anyway.
But I'm curious about some things.
On the case 10 (hells) we have this on the decision of UR/BUR. (I added .... to keep the formatting found on the document)
if (nRarity > 100) { .... sRes = GetRandomResrefLootBeyondUltraRare(); nRareNumber = 5; } else { .... sRes = GetRandomResrefLootUltraRare(FALSE, 0); nRareNumber = 4;//0 indicates no racebooks .... if (Random(100) < 15) return CreateAugmenter(oContainer, nRareNumber - 1, oOpener); }
While on área 11 (Other lvl 55+ áreas, which I presume are ely, abos and abyss)
if (nRarity > 100 && !Random(2)) { .... sRes = GetRandomResrefLootBeyondUltraRare(); nRareNumber = 5; } else { .... sRes = GetRandomResrefLootUltraRare(); nRareNumber = 4; ....if (Random(100) < 15) return CreateAugmenter(oContainer, nRareNumber - 1, oOpener); }
That gives me the impression that at other areas there is just 50% chance a rolled bur will be in fact a bur, the rest of the time it will be an UR instead. Is that correct? And just for curiousity's sake, which are those area 11 maps? Kind in doubt because, for example, the first 2 maps of abos are non-fugue areas, as the 2 initial maps of elysium used to be. Does that means those are considered area 9? What about rona? Some other áreas, like pyramid, beholders, Pit of Moliations, etc?
Nothing really importante, but I'm kind of curious.
Take care Kaezar
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Post by chirality on Jun 18, 2013 6:00:40 GMT
Best thread in a long time.
Thanks a lot kaezar for taking the time to look into this and having the knowledge to understand it and ask these questions, this is very helpful (not to mention interesting)
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Post by chirality on Jun 18, 2013 15:00:53 GMT
Sorry to post so much but... I think it is silly that a professional treasure hunter (rogue) is less influential than someone who's only qualification is the ability to cast spells. Yeah, me too. I'm not sure why this was originally added but it'd probably be cool if it didn't exist and TS effect was limited to an inherent, automatically-applying, action-less trait of the rogue class. For one thing it would make bard less hateful for most people to play and for another thing it would make rogue cooler and more valuable in a party (something that's in dire need currently and has been for a long time). If bard didn't have TS would it ever have became designated banker? The combination of "banker class" with total support class in a role that doesn't please anyone who wants to have fun by pwning things is not very favorable. Whereas for rogue who already spends time searching, picking, and so forth, the role of banker makes a lot more sense and they don't have to worry about skill-based loot improvement mechanic. I don't mean to offend those who created or implemented it but I don't quite understand rationale behind the TS spell nor why the mechanic is so awkward (spamming a buff like this seems to only serve the purpose of slowing parties down and forcing bard to "work" to utilize this advantage)
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Post by kaezar on Jun 18, 2013 15:46:23 GMT
Sorry to post so much but... I think it is silly that a professional treasure hunter (rogue) is less influential than someone who's only qualification is the ability to cast spells. Yeah, me too. I'm not sure why this was originally added but it'd probably be cool if it didn't exist and TS effect was limited to an inherent, automatically-applying, action-less trait of the rogue class. For one thing it would make bard less hateful for most people to play and for another thing it would make rogue cooler and more valuable in a party (something that's in dire need currently and has been for a long time). If bard didn't have TS would it ever have became designated banker? The combination of "banker class" with total support class in a role that doesn't please anyone who wants to have fun by pwning things is not very favorable. Whereas for rogue who already spends time searching, picking, and so forth, the role of banker makes a lot more sense and they don't have to worry about skill-based loot improvement mechanic. I don't mean to offend those who created or implemented it but I don't quite understand rationale behind the TS spell nor why the mechanic is so awkward (spamming a buff like this seems to only serve the purpose of slowing parties down and forcing bard to "work" to utilize this advantage) You people have got it kind of backwards. What do you think a character does, go sniffing around to find items? It is not that, it is applied on loot piles only. As I see it, what treasure scent does is allow the character to recognize a valuable items on the piles of trinkets a critter has hidden. A bard is the máster of Lore, which is the skill to recognize item value. They even get a bônus to lore of 1/bard level, which is not even on the skill cap. So, not surprising they are the best at recognizing items. Rogues, otoh, are másters of skills in general. Not just Lore. Yeah, there is some justification for it being a better looter than average, reason it got the bônus, but not, I think, as good as a bard. Take care Kaezar P.S. Apologies for the screwy accentualtion. I updated Windows and the $#%#$%#$ browser started thinking I'm writing in portuguese. So it acentuates words like bônus and underlines all words as if I am making ortography mistakes. Anybody knows how to turn that off? Well, looking for the silver lining, maybe that's what finally pushes me to stop using IE and start of Firefox. K.
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Post by KnightErrant on Jun 18, 2013 15:59:59 GMT
Most rogues from stories would lead one to believe that while the rogue may be really really adept at finding or getting at the treasure... the best item or two would invariably wind up in their own pocket. Rogues should get +10% gold whenever party gold is given in the same manner some toons get +10% xp KE.
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Post by chirality on Jun 18, 2013 17:54:12 GMT
You people have got it kind of backwards. What do you think a character does, go sniffing around to find items? It is not that, it is applied on loot piles only. As I see it, what treasure scent does is allow the character to recognize a valuable items on the piles of trinkets a critter has hidden. A bard is the máster of Lore, which is the skill to recognize item value. They even get a bônus to lore of 1/bard level, which is not even on the skill cap. So, not surprising they are the best at recognizing items. Rogues, otoh, are másters of skills in general. Not just Lore. Yeah, there is some justification for it being a better looter than average, reason it got the bônus, but not, I think, as good as a bard. Meh. I don't want to derail into arguments here but I really have to disagree. That only makes sense from a PnP and/or RP perspective. If TS was implemented differently to suit your theory it would make perfect sense, but it's not like the bard is using his mastery of ancient songs and knowledge to suddenly make a better item appear. If the item is there, it's not like everyone would just leave it there because they think it's junk without the bard to say "wait stop! this is a BUR guys! I recognize it from the epic tale of Gravilar the 3rd!". If TS is supposed to be a "scent" then they're roguishly using their intuition and skill at finding treasure to find a sweet item that maybe others missed. The problem is that yes in PnP bard is the master of lore, unfortunately NWN's treatment of combining knowledge skills --> one single Lore skill detracts from the difference between sagely knowledge such as a wizard has in separate disciplines vs. the "folk lore" knowledge of history and ancient songs and tales etc such as a bard has. There's a very clearly-delineated difference in 3/35 PnP between bardic lore and the type of "lore" that a mage uses in HG to make their spells better. That's the other issue, too--Lore in HG, like it or not, has one single role: improving spells. IDing is a joke with ubiquitous presence of identifying machines + screwy engine item value calculations. You don't need very much lore at all to ID even "super sweet" items; practically in "RP" or "PnP" world something like an asmo arti or panoply of llira should require insane high "lore" skill to recognize and make usable. Now THIS would be the province of a bard's lore. But that doesn't explain why the item got there in the first place. On the other hand a rogue could be finding the BUR in a spot no one thought to look. I don't think TS makes sense with the explanation of "recognizing" good gear. That doesn't fit with either the "treasure scent" name/feel nor does it make sense practically, because the item will be recognized regardless for 120 gp at the guild anyway. It doesn't make sense to divorce from the reality of the game, which is really not founded very much in make believe roleplaying--"good thing we have the bard to realize that crappy helm was actually a VoV, otherwise the helm would never end up in the splitter" It makes sense for a "professional treasure hunter" (well said) to be finding better items than the party would get otherwise. The rogue would be doing like you said, finding better stuff in piles of trinkets or maybe the crack in the floor has a ring stuck inside it and so forth. But bard sniffing out treasure? like he said it makes no sense, the only qualification is that they can cast a spell. That part makes sense I guess but it would make just as much sense for any other spellcaster to be able to learn and use TS in that case. Why not assassins for example? Why not the wiz with 127 lore, lore mote, legend lore, blah blah, is not he just as much a master of lore and recognizing treasure as the bard? He could have gleaned the same information from careful study poring over ancient tomes just as the bard may have known from countless repetition of ancient poetry. I know that's a long rant but just wanted to explain a bit more why I think it IS the other way around.
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Post by Yojimbo on Jun 18, 2013 18:51:09 GMT
Just because we know the mechanics behind the scenes doesn't make loot popping different from the PnP scenario of a Bard using his Bardic lore while sifting through a pile of debris, a dead corpse, a puddle of goo, and etc to identify the valuable loot another less informed player would otherwise miss. I'm not looking to argue and debate it as it is clearing heading down a road towards an argument over semantics. For a Rogue being a "professional" treasure hunter that is a misnomer really they are more adept at treasure hunting than other classes due to the nature of the class being one who is often motivated by greed and things that shine and glitter but with out the great knowledge of a Bard a Rogue might pass up a great item simply because it doesn't look valuable. This is just about world building and semantics but still I'm not seeing a reason why a Bard should not get a better score when the Bard is also burdened with the chore of having to cast a spell to enhance his abilities each time he checks. If I considered any change to this I would allow both classes a bonus based on Lore skill with an added bonus to Bards for casting TS, perhaps changing the equation, both classes get +1 for free at a minimum level requirement w/ or w/o and points in Lore. That would be a very complicated way to get a bonus of +1 to no more than +4 but likely keep a +3 cap resulting in probably poorer pops due to lack of investment in skills or spells for the given classes.
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Post by vulp on Jun 18, 2013 19:08:32 GMT
Not sure if this is right but.... Treasure scent: A multihued glow of metallic colors sur-rounds you. The swirling glow manifestsas a thin mist that forces itself up intoyour nose. Suppressing a sneeze, you notewith excitement the unmistakable scent of treasure. You can detect copper, silver, gold, platinum, and gems within 30 feet, as well as differentiate between the ?ve kinds of valuables.When you detect one of these types of valuables, the exact location of the sourceis not revealed—only its presence and direction. Whenever you come within 5 feet of the treasure, youcan pinpoint its exact loca-tion. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inchof common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
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Post by chirality on Jun 18, 2013 20:26:08 GMT
Yup...I didn't even want to get into the PnP spell itself but as vulp shows the spell really has absolutely nothing to do with being a bard and recognizing ancient treasures due to bardic lore.
No matter how you cut it, it's a big stretch, I'm not saying it's worth arguing about at this point in HG's career but I don't understand the argument for bard TS. I'm sure I'm missing something, but to me it's just lacking rationale from every angle, both in terms of flavor and game mechanics. In terms of balance I also don't understand either.
Jimbo I don't really understand your argument or what you're even talking about with the suggested changes, but as you said this is really not worth debating I guess. It's not like it will change and bards suddenly have to reinc because TS is no longer a spell.
But it is an interesting debate to me, that's all.
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Post by starlandra on Jun 18, 2013 20:40:44 GMT
rogues are not treasure hunters, they are treasure stealers, and hoarders. big difference
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